LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[flyonthewall]

I did not know you all were talking about this. When I got up a few minutes ago while lying in bed this struck me. So I came to my office and wrote this to pots here, and a few other treads that are now running. If this is not the Holy Spirit what is? Here it is.

Keep in mind when we are speaking to Mormons we are speaking to a group who has for its savior a completely different Jesus, as only the name Jesus is the same. That’s why when they make the claim that they are Christians because the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ it’s an invalid claim at least to Christians who understand their faith and have made a good honest study of the Mormon Church.

Say we were friends in high school and just met after 10 years and began to speak about our common friend Mark. “Yes I new Mark too, great quarterback, and he married Jill do you remember her? Wait, the Mark I knew was into soccer, he is married to Gail who died of Cancer three years ago. I tell you this, how could we both continue to speak about Mark even after we find out he is not the same Mark? We could ignore this fact, but the conversation would be insane right?

So here we are speaking about when and if the Apostasy happened that Mormons bring forth as if we were speaking about the same Jesus that they are speaking about.

We just have to keep this is the back of our mind when conversing with this certain church. We also need to remind them, Catholics as well, (me included) when this gets buried under the conversation we may be having with them.
Just some food for thought

If someone wants to make a true comparison between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus that would be great. I have to go to work.

Let’s see, “my” Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary…yours?
“My” Jesus turned water into wine…yours?
“My” Jesus healed the sick, caused the lame to walk and raised the dead…yours?
“My” Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses…yours?
"My Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin…yours?
“My” Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the 3rd day…yours?
“My” Jesus ascended to heaven…yours?

 

[KathleenGee]

So then why are we apostate? and you are not? and what about all the past teachings of the mormons…certainly those are apostate to us…there is too much changing of Mormon teachings…I have come to the site that states its creeds…

 

[KathleenGee]

St. Paul’s role was to preach to the Gentiles who had a very different formation from that of the Jews…

 

[catholic-rcia]

Let’s see, “my” Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary…yours?
“My” Jesus turned water into wine…yours?
“My” Jesus healed the sick, caused the lame to walk and raised the dead…yours?
“My” Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses…yours?
"My Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin…yours?
“My” Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the 3rd day…yours?
“My” Jesus ascended to heaven…yours?

My dollar bill is green
My dollar bill has a picture of George Washington
My dollar bill is the same size as all other dollar bills, etx…etc…

Do you understand the point here?

Your writing above is deceiving, unless you ad your real beliefs as to Jesus is,
Not just the ones that appear Christian. Who do you say he is? Really? Be honest and open as this is the best way to be. Then after you do this defend your faith, your true beliefs. I have a big problem here because this is how you come off to those searching for Christ. They do not discover the Jesus of the LDS Church until after Baptism in most cases. I live in Logan Utah, I help them come to Christ. It is clear to them after they learn about Jesus in the Christian sense they see the difference. Again be honest.

Our Jesus is Lord and God of all things. (All things)

 

[catholic-rcia]

Flyonwheel
I will come back tonight after work. Please put your real beliefs as to who Jesus is to the LDS. Not just the obvious ones that would have him appear no different than what Catholics would see. Those that desire coming into the Catholic faith get at least a full year to make a good study of who Jesus is to Christians. It always goes from the head deep down into the heart. They too come to a point when they say “Jesus, my Lord and my God” The Apostles themselves spent 3 personal years with Him.

So go deeper and post them, who is Jesus? What is it about the Mormon Jesus that is different from the Christian Jesus?
Think of the main points and just post them. No body here should then attack it. It’s what you believe. All I am trying to say is how can we speak about Jesus and His Church as if we are speaking about the same Jesus, if indeed we are speaking about two different ones? Each conversation we have about Jesus if we do not keep these things in mind starts off distorted.

Considering these differences that I know you will come up with, would you yourself continue to say he is the same Jesus that Christians worship?

 

[pablope]

Which statement are referring to? That we find all the different descriptions of the Trinity in the different creeds to be unknowable? That I agree with.

The statement from your Elder Holland that you posted about the Trinity.

Let us just start fresh…What is your concept or understanding of the Trinity? Where did you get this concept-from Mormonish, Catholicism, a Protestant denomination or what not? And can you cite or post the official statement from where you got your undertanding? For your surely, you got your understanding from somewhere, right.

 

[ParkerD]

…What is it about the Mormon Jesus that is different from the “Christian Jesus”?..

Catholic-RCIA,

From what I observe as those who post repeatedly say “don’t trust your heart” or “don’t trust your feelings” is that the Mormon knowledge of Jesus Christ is that He lives, truly, as the Son of God the Father, and that He loves us with a real knowledge of us–of our personalities, our likes and dislikes, what “makes us tick”, and that He rejoices in His love for us, and was and is profoundly grateful that the Father would grant His desire to be our Redeemer and Savior, because His love is that magnificent–and that Mormons feel a personal closeness to Him in that we do “trust our heart” and “trust our feelings” toward Him, toward Heavenly Father, and toward the Holy Ghost who testifies of Them. We have no confusion over those kinds of feelings, nor do we need to consult a piece of writing to express how we feel about Him, nor do we believe that He is “the church”.

He is a personal Savior.

 

[Todd520]

The statement from your Elder Holland that you posted about the Trinity.

Let us just start fresh…What is your concept or understanding of the Trinity? Where did you get this concept-from Mormonish, Catholicism, a Protestant denomination or what not? And can you cite or post the official statement from where you got your undertanding? For your surely, you got your understanding from somewhere, right.

Here are my short definitions of both
Catholic Trinity - three persons united in one being.
**LDS Godhead **- three beings united in one purpose.

Below is my edit of the original Nicene Creed of 325, which should make it fine for LDS

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one -]substance/-] purpose with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

I don’t like how the three persons articulated in the bible evolved into describing a single being with dissociative identity disorder.

 

[Stephen168]

Where did you get this concept-from Mormonish, Catholicism, a Protestant denomination or what not? And can you cite or post the official statement from where you got your undertanding? For your surely, you got your understanding from somewhere, right.

Below is my edit of the original Nicene Creed of 325, which should make it fine for LDS

I know a lot of Mormon belief is based on rejecting Catholic belief. But it would be nice if you would answer the question. If you can

 

[Todd520]

I know a lot of Mormon belief is based on rejecting Catholic belief. But it would be nice if you would answer the question. If you can

Sorry, I was trying to show we overlap significantly in our beliefs rather than reject.

To answer the question from LDS.org Godhead

The Church’s first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.

 

[SteveVH]

Let’s see, “my” Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary…yours?
“My” Jesus turned water into wine…yours?
“My” Jesus healed the sick, caused the lame to walk and raised the dead…yours?
“My” Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses…yours?
"My Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin…yours?
“My” Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the 3rd day…yours?
“My” Jesus ascended to heaven…yours?

My Jesus is eternal, without beginning or end. Yours?
My Jesus created everything that exists, including all matter and spirit. Yours?
My Jesus is eternally the Son of the Father. Yours?
My Jesus is not the brother of Satan. Yours?
My Jesus is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Yours?
My Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation. Yours?

 

[Stephen168]

Below is my edit of the original Nicene Creed of 325, which should make it fine for LDS

Mormons don’t agree with ‘Light from Light’ either. I do think the rejection of the creed is an example of Joseph Smith taking his followers into apostasy in 1844.

1. Joseph Smith invented a new religion;
2. that religion is contrary to Christianity;
3. Therefore, there was an Apostasy.

 

[Todd520]

Mormons don’t agree with ‘Light from Light’ either. I do think the rejection of the creed is an example of Joseph Smith taking his followers into apostasy in 1844.

1. Joseph Smith invented a new religion;
2. that religion is contrary to Christianity;
3. Therefore, there was an Apostasy.

I admit to not knowing the deeper meanings of ‘Light from Light’ and thus won’t argue. I took the creed at face value in my response.

Stephen, your 3 point logic is faulty, but you knew that already.

 

[Stephen168]

I admit to not knowing the deeper meanings of ‘Light from Light’ and thus won’t argue. I took the creed at face value in my response.

I think not understanding Christian writing, and taking Christian writings at face value has been a problem for Mormons since its invention.

Stephen, your 3 point logic is faulty, but you knew that already.

I know. It’s Mormon logic.

 

[SteveVH]

I admit to not knowing the deeper meanings of ‘Light from Light’ and thus won’t argue. I took the creed at face value in my response.

Stephen, your 3 point logic is faulty, but you knew that already.

The meaning of “Light from Light” is just what it says. They are one in being; one in substance. When light fills a room you cannot seperate it from other light.

There is nothing “faulty” about Stephen’s logic. Mormon beliefs are “new” in that they differ from anything found in 2000 years of Christianity, and, in fact, so different that they constitute another religion, separate and apart from Christianity as the world has known it. Call it what you will, but it is a new religion by any one’s measure in that it had not been seen before Joseph Smith came on the scene. We all realize that the Mormon claim is that it has restored “true” Christianity and the rest of us are out in left field somewhere, but a claim does not necessarily constitute a truth.

If we are right, and you are wrong, then you indeed have fallen into apostasy. If you can make the claim against us, we can certainly make the claim against you and, I might add, we have mountains of historical evidence to make our case. You have the claim of a man, Joseph Smith.

 

[Javl]

Paul had already found one of the churches to be preaching another gospel, but not another gospel just a altered or perverted version of the Gospel. It was underway already.

Apolgies for butting in with my :twocents:, but any altered or changed or perverted gospel IS another Gospel. There is only one Gospel and it needs no adjunct or explanation.

I am not surprised that you think we have a different gospel.
Yawn…about the “different Jesus” bit.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
I make the same statementn as Peter and you call it false. Perhaps Peter worshiped a ‘different’ Jesus than you, too. It appears I am in good company with Peter.

Would you say that the Jews refer to a different Jesus? Or would you say they don’t hold the same beliefs about Him?

BeThat is good…but you know that is not what I meant. Let me re-phrase: our view of Jesus is different from yours. Same Jesus, different view.

The truth is, we worship the same Jesus, we just have differing beliefs about Him. Simple. But somehow un-grasped by a few.

I speak true. It is definately juvenile to try and state we worship a different Jesus. It is such a simple concept to understand that different people can see a single individual differently. But perhaps it is above your ability to understand. Again, so be it.
The wolves have already been and not spared the flock. If you disagree, then take it up with Paul. Perhaps he too, worshiped a “different” Jesus than you.

I understand you disagree with what we believe. That’s okay, the prevailing religious leaders of the day had worse to say about Jesus.

If you make the Book of Mormon equal to, or above, the Gospel, then you do have another Gospel.

As for Jesus, you do worship one who is different than the one we worship. Your concept of the trinity is for three separate Gods. Ours is but One God. Your God(s) had a beginning ( Jesus included ), Our God ( Jesus included ) has no beginning and has always been. It is you who cannot, do not, or will not, understand the simple concept of a single triune God as presented and explained in the Bible.

The first commandment of the Decalog states that*** “I am the Lord your God, there are no other gods besides me”.*** How do you look at this commandment if the LDS trinity is composed of three separate Gods?

As for Paul, he knew and worshipped the same God ( Jesus ) that mainline Christians do.
And as for the nonbelieving Jews, they of course did not believe or worship him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-RCIA,

From what I observe as those who post repeatedly say “don’t trust your heart” or “don’t trust your feelings” is that the Mormon knowledge of Jesus Christ is that He lives, truly, as the Son of God the Father, and that He loves us with a real knowledge of us–of our personalities, our likes and dislikes, what “makes us tick”, and that He rejoices in His love for us, and was and is profoundly grateful that the Father would grant His desire to be our Redeemer and Savior, because His love is that magnificent–and that Mormons feel a personal closeness to Him in that we do “trust our heart” and “trust our feelings” toward Him, toward Heavenly Father, and toward the Holy Ghost who testifies of Them. We have no confusion over those kinds of feelings, nor do we need to consult a piece of writing to express how we feel about Him, nor do we believe that He is “the church”.

He is a personal Savior.

I am going to stick to my original questions to flyonwheel.
I do not see any anwers in what you posted
Thanks anyway
In Christ

 

[Todd520]

The meaning of “Light from Light” is just what it says. They are one in being; one in substance. When light fills a room you cannot seperate it from other light.

There is nothing “faulty” about Stephen’s logic. Mormon beliefs are “new” in that they differ from anything found in 2000 years of Christianity, and, in fact, so different that they constitute another religion, separate and apart from Christianity as the world has known it. Call it what you will, but it is a new religion by any one’s measure in that it had not been seen before Joseph Smith came on the scene. We all realize that the Mormon claim is that it has restored “true” Christianity and the rest of us are out in left field somewhere, but a claim does not necessarily constitute a truth.

If we are right, and you are wrong, then you indeed have fallen into apostasy. If you can make the claim against us, we can certainly make the claim against you and, I might add, we have mountains of historical evidence to make our case. You have the claim of a man, Joseph Smith.

I respect your right to a different meaning of Light **from **Light. I take it that he was begotten from God and inherited his attributes. Let’s leave it at it does not explicitly say whayt you said. In fact, nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state they are the same being, especially obvious considering Jesus is of Flesh and Bone which is not the same as your description of God the father.

 

[Stephen168]

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God **of

God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

I respect your right to a different meaning of Light **from **Light. I take it that he was begotten from God and inherited his attributes. Let’s leave it at it does not explicitly say whayt you said.

from?

It is a Christian Creed rejected by Joseph Smith; an example of Smith taking his followers into apostasy in 1844. You clearly don’t understand the creed.

But talking about the creed keeps you from trying to defend the Apostasy myth of Mormonism.

 

[Sunstone]

To address the initial post:

The LDS Church does not have an official date for the Great Apostasy. Mormons believe that the deaths of the original Apostles are important, and cite Acts 1 as evidence that new Apostles should have been called, but they cite this as evidence of apostasy when the Quorum of the Twelve is no longer being filled.

LDS scholars I know see a gradual apostasy and cite the Council of Nicea as a confirming moment of it.

Needless to say, your rank and file LDS person usually doesn’t hold with the idea of the generic use of the term “Apostle.”