LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

God of God…Light of Light…

It was the light of God that filled the darkness…the nothingness…and Jesus is of the Light.

The whole essence of Jesus Christ is tied to the redemption of mankind. So you if you say He erected no church, or the apostles were refused to have successors, then you are denying the very essence of the relationship of Christ to all people…including those who continued on in the life of Christ after the last death of the Apostles.

Todd, when you use the word purpose…you are then reducing God to your terms of utilizing Him…for a specific purpose you deign fit.

CC234: “The Mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in Himself. (Not Purpose.) It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, …the light …that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the ‘hierarchy of truths of faith.’ The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Son, and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men ‘and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin.’”

To deny that Christ willed the Apostles to have successors is to consistently affirm the constancy of God, the Unmoved Mover, as well constancy to the fidelity of the nature of Jesus Christ— our redemption. He would never allow us to be abandon to ourselves after His glorious ascension in to heaven.

Jesus is Light…meaning the Light is not merely filling the darkness of the world, but that it is inherently the illumination of the human being to the connection and awareness of God, the source of all Wisdom.

So in essence, Jesus cannot contradict His own nature – and stop saving and redeeming men after the death of the last apostle, or turn off His light through the Holy Spirit in illuminating the way to Him…it is evident and public, and constant…

Not imbued with Joseph Smith needing to put on glasses…with the Light of God, this imagery is totally inconsistent in Salvation History…if anything, the knowledge of Christ symbolizes one being healed from blindness, both physical and spiritual.

Thus for Smith to put on glasses --implying he has corrupted eyesight – to find truth is false instead of seeking the illuminating Grace of Jesus Christ, always remaining with us to the end of the world.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Like the prodigal son, who wanders, when he returns he has not been replaced with a stranger who speaks a different language. He is welcomed home. A so-called “great apostasy” defines the son as having no place to return to, that his home was lost when he left it.

 

[Todd520]

I respect your right to a different meaning of Light **from **Light. I take it that he was begotten from God and inherited his attributes. Let’s leave it at it does not explicitly say whayt you said. In fact, nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state they are the same being, especially obvious considering Jesus is of Flesh and Bone which is not the same as your description of God the father.

To be clear, I commented on the nicene creed at face value, what the words explicitly said to me. I changed the only word that was an explicit problem

The nicenee council may have intended **‘light of light’ **to imply ‘one being’.but they were not explicit in stating that. .

 

[pablope]

Here are my short definitions of both
Catholic Trinity - three persons united in one being.
**LDS Godhead **- three beings united in one purpose.

Below is my edit of the original Nicene Creed of 325, which should make it fine for LDS

I don’t like how the three persons articulated in the bible evolved into describing a single being with dissociative identity disorder.

Thanks, Todd. Is this approved LDS doctrine? to be believed by all mormons? Can’t you not cite the official LDS statement or doctrine?

 

[Javl]

I respect your right to a different meaning of Light **from **Light. I take it that he was begotten from God and inherited his attributes. Let’s leave it at it does not explicitly say whayt you said. In fact, nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state they are the same being, especially obvious considering Jesus is of Flesh and Bone which is not the same as your description of God the father.

Todd you’re off base again. If you read and understand what you are reading in the Bilble, Jesus Himself said the He and the Father*** are one. ***. St. John and St. Paul also say that they are one. There are many instances in the Bible that describe and reveal the One Triune God. Keep in mind that Jesus had two distinct natures, human and divine. This is also emphasized in the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Stephen168]

The nicenee council may have intended **‘light of light’ **to imply ‘one being’.but they were not explicit in stating that. .

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God **o

f God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; You clearly don’t understand the creed. But talking about the creed keeps you from trying to defend the Apostasy myth of Mormonism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Todd,

You explained your position on why you said what you did…and this is why the Catholic Church has scholars to fully and accurately define meanings.

 

[KathleenGee]

“Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the Scriptures to us?”…Luke 24:32.

What I draw from is the pastoral plan statement by Catholic Bishops in 1999. I share this as a comparative…with limited context as it is regarding adult faith formation.

Essentially, the Catholic Church comes to its decrees and councils through the gathering of bishops, and the work of theologians is involved in the Church’s ongoing mission to nurture and guide its members in faith in the conditions they live.

Jesus Christ is the heart of catechesis…the Holy Spirit works to uphold and retain the true intent of Jesus Christ regarding His teachings for every generation. We are all called to build vibrant parishes, and to share our faith with others.

The mode of catechesis,…‘were not our hearts burning within us while He spoke on the way…and opened Scripture’ was an event where those who knew Christ before, did not recognize him in his resurrected state.

Previously, the Lord spoke to us through parables, preaching, healing, restoring. Here the Lord is now in personal encounter, in dialogue and question, drawing those in this walk into a richer life with Him, and He as well bringing the Word of God to a living and meaningful way to His companions.’

This model is now one that we can imitate, people with a living faith, vital, ‘grounded in a deep commitment to the person and message of Jesus.’ ‘The Church’s pastoral ministry exists to sustain the work of the Gospel…and the layperson’s mission is the world…’

‘Why were their hearts burning? They were burning because in Jesus the disciples caught a glimpse into the heart of God and found their world made new. They saw for an instant the full scope of the Father’s loving plan and its high point in Christ’s death and resurrection. in that perspective, the pathway of their lives opened from confusion and despair into conviction and hope, and they began to grasp the height and depth of God’s mysterious love. What a profound learning experience that must have been.’

For we Catholics, the Church 'is a revelation of great Good News: God , who is love, has made us to enjoy divine life in abundance, to share in the very life of God, a communion with the Holy Trinity together with al the saints in the new creation of God’s reign.

‘Faith … is our human response to this divine calling: It is a personal adherence to God and assent to His truth.’…‘we are led by God to turn from the blindness of sin and to accept God’s saving grace, liberating truth, and sustaining love for our lives and for all of creation.’…

‘As disciples…our lives become increasingly centered on Jesus and the kingdom he proclaims.’ We are called to God, to community…

‘Throughout this mortal life, a living faith longs for the fulfillment of eternal life. Even though we are now on a pilgrimage, with mature faith, we "taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below…Our faith is rooted in a personal relationship with Jesus, and we put our energies into God’s mandate to serve both justice and peace.’

So this burning in the bosom is really more the response of the heart and soul when the words of Scripture come alive, not the main source of decrees and councils…the initial movement may invoke emotion, but when put into action, there is the cross and incorporating those in lawful authority to come together to discuss, study, pray and implement.

 

[flyonthewall]

My dollar bill is green
My dollar bill has a picture of George Washington
My dollar bill is the same size as all other dollar bills, etx…etc…

Do you understand the point here?

I do not.

Your writing above is deceiving, unless you ad your real beliefs as to Jesus is,
Not just the ones that appear Christian. Who do you say he is? Really? Be honest and open as this is the best way to be. Then after you do this defend your faith, your true beliefs. I have a big problem here because this is how you come off to those searching for Christ. They do not discover the Jesus of the LDS Church until after Baptism in most cases. I live in Logan Utah, I help them come to Christ. It is clear to them after they learn about Jesus in the Christian sense they see the difference. Again be honest.

I speak the truth about my faith. If it does not match your understanding of my beliefs, then your understanding is off. Or should I start telling you what you believe and call you deceitful if you don’t agree…?

You keep trying to fabricate this “different” Jesus and attribute him to us. Keep your creation for yourself.

Our Jesus is Lord and God of all things. (All things)

At least this is an honest statement

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

Have you ever read the Nicene Creed? It followed the Apostles Creed because Christians were loosing their faith in Christ as God. It is recited every Resurrection Sunday Mass…every week.

Here is part of the Nicene Creed, 381 AD:

“We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty…”

“We believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ,
Eternally begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light,
True God from True God.
Begotten, not made
Of One being with the Father…
Through Him (Jesus Christ) all things were made…”

I have read the Nicean Creed.

If Mormons want to study Catholicism for what it really teaches…it is best to go to a Catholic teaching source rather than learning about it through the prism of Mormonism that calls us apostate.

I agree. We don’t teach anything about Catholicism, so not sure what you refer to.

 

[flyonthewall]

The statement from your Elder Holland that you posted about the Trinity.

Let us just start fresh…What is your concept or understanding of the Trinity? Where did you get this concept-from Mormonish, Catholicism, a Protestant denomination or what not? And can you cite or post the official statement from where you got your undertanding? For your surely, you got your understanding from somewhere, right.

My understanding of the Trinity comes form those that profess a belief in the Trinity. I have asked many Trinitarians to explain it to me, and they all have a tough time of it, and sometimes contradict each other. Some Trinitarians have more of a modalistic understanding.
I don’t claim to understand the Trinity enough to explain it so I don’t…I ask questions about it.
I’m not sure there is a single understanding of the Trinity amongst Trinitarians themselves.
The best I can do is say: One God in three persons, united in substance/nature/being.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonwheel

Cute

I will come back tonight after work. Please put your real beliefs as to who Jesus is to the LDS. Not just the obvious ones that would have him appear no different than what Catholics would see. Those that desire coming into the Catholic faith get at least a full year to make a good study of who Jesus is to Christians. It always goes from the head deep down into the heart. They too come to a point when they say “Jesus, my Lord and my God” The Apostles themselves spent 3 personal years with Him.
So go deeper and post them, who is Jesus? What is it about the Mormon Jesus that is different from the Christian Jesus?Jesus is not different, it is the beliefs we hold about Him that differ.

Think of the main points and just post them. No body here should then attack it. It’s what you believe. All I am trying to say is how can we speak about Jesus and His Church as if we are speaking about the same Jesus, if indeed we are speaking about two different ones? Each conversation we have about Jesus if we do not keep these things in mind starts off distorted. Considering these differences that I know you will come up with, would you yourself continue to say he is the same Jesus that Christians worship?

I will always say that the Jesus each of us believe in are the same God and Person. It is the beliefs each of us hold about Him that differ.

 

[flyonthewall]

My Jesus is eternal, without beginning or end. Yours?

Yes.

My Jesus created everything that exists, including all matter and spirit. Yours?

Yes (of course I don’t believe that spirit or matter can be created or destroyed, only transformed)

My Jesus is eternally the Son of the Father. Yours?

Yes.

My Jesus is not the brother of Satan. Yours?

Since you believe Jesus created Satan I guess that would mean Jesus is the father of Satan?

My Jesus is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Yours?

Second Person of the Godhead

My Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation. Yours?

Yes.

 

[flyonthewall]

Apolgies for butting in with my :twocents:, but any altered or changed or perverted gospel IS another Gospel. There is only one Gospel and it needs no adjunct or explanation.

I agree, but it was Paul that stated: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”

If you make the Book of Mormon equal to, or above, the Gospel, then you do have another Gospel.

The Book of Mormon is not above the Gospel, but contains the gospel.

As for Jesus, you do worship one who is different than the one we worship. Your concept of the trinity is for three separate Gods. Ours is but One God. Your God(s) had a beginning ( Jesus included ), Our God ( Jesus included ) has no beginning and has always been. It is you who cannot, do not, or will not, understand the simple concept of a single triune God as presented and explained in the Bible.

As I have said before and will continue saying, it is not Jesus that is different, but the beliefs that differ.
We proclaim that Jesus is without beginning or end so where do you come up with us believing He had a begining?
The description of the Triune God is not presented in the Bible…It is a man made attempt at reconciling One God in three persons united in purpose.

The first commandment of the Decalog states that*** “I am the Lord your God, there are no other gods besides me”.*** How do you look at this commandment if the LDS trinity is composed of three separate Gods?

I look at it in the same manner you do. There are 3 that function as one. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost each are God and comprise the One God described in the Bible.

As for Paul, he knew and worshipped the same God ( Jesus ) that mainline Christians do.
And as for the nonbelieving Jews, they of course did not believe or worship him.

But you believe they reference the same person, just hold different beliefs about Him…

 

[Stephen168]

My Jesus created everything that exists, including all matter and spirit. Yours?
flyonthewall;7369020:

Yes (of course I don’t believe that spirit or matter can be created or destroyed, only transformed)

Your Jesus does things you don’t believe are possible?

My Jesus is not the brother of Satan. Yours?
flyonthewall;7369020:

Since you believe Jesus created Satan I guess that would mean Jesus is the father of Satan?

So you believe Jesus is the brother of Satan, but you are too ashamed to admit it? Interesting

My Jesus is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Yours?
flyonthewall;7369020:

Second Person of the Godhead

Does that mean the answeris No, but you are too ashamed to admit it? Interesting.

Not only did Joseph Smith invent a different Jesus, he is a Jesus you seem to be ashamed of. By the first answer you seem to be so ashamed, you seem to really what him to be like the true Christian Jesus.

 

[Todd520]

Thanks, Todd. Is this approved LDS doctrine? to be believed by all mormons? Can’t you not cite the official LDS statement or doctrine?

pablope, i did cite and link to the offical doctrine. Here it is again from LDS.org Godhead

The Church’s first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.

Instead, were you looking for official criticism on the Catholic definition of Trinity? I doubt anything official exists.

 

[pablope]

pablope, i did cite and link to the offical doctrine. Here it is again from LDS.org Godhead

Instead, were you looking for official criticism on the Catholic definition of Trinity? I doubt anything official exists.

Thanks, Todd…sorry, missed the link. I was looking more for a comparison to see the difference in definition or understanding.

 

[Madaglan]

Yes.
Yes (of course I don’t believe that spirit or matter can be created or destroyed, only transformed)
Yes.
Since you believe Jesus created Satan I guess that would mean Jesus is the father of Satan?
Second Person of the Godhead
Yes.

The big difference I notice between LDS and a traditional Catholic (or Orthodox) view of the Trinity is that LDS believe the Father has flesh and bones. For Catholic and Orthodox, the Father is uncircumscribable and does not have bodily form.

 

[flyonthewall]

Your Jesus does things you don’t believe are possible?

Interesting indeed is the way you twist words favor your point of view rather than let them be as spoken.

So you believe Jesus is the brother of Satan, but you are too ashamed to admit it? Interesting

So you do believe Jesus is the father of Satan and are too ashamed to admit it…interesting indeed.
The “Jesus and Satan are brothers” is focused on more by critics than us as we realize that Satan fell, and that statement would not be accurate as stands.

Does that mean the answeris No, but you are too ashamed to admit it? Interesting.

The Godhead is mentioned specifically in the Bible…how about the “Trinity”?

Not only did Joseph Smith invent a different Jesus, he is a Jesus you seem to be ashamed of. By the first answer you seem to be so ashamed, you seem to really what him to be like the true Christian Jesus.

Oh the lengths you go to to de-Christianize us.
I am ashamed of nothing about my faith, but if I played the games you do to deny someone as Christian, that would certainly be reason to be ashamed.
I spoke true and you cannot stand it so you twist and pervert what was said. That is indeed a good example how and why the apostasy happened. Thank you for your illustration.

 

[flyonthewall]

The big difference I notice between LDS and a traditional Catholic (or Orthodox) view of the Trinity is that LDS believe the Father has flesh and bones. For Catholic and Orthodox, the Father is uncircumscribable and does not have bodily form.

That is correct. We do believe the Father has a body of flesh and bones. We are made in His image, if He had no bodily form then we would not either.