LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[RebeccaJ]

I am familiar with it, and it is NOT canonical.
Will pointing you to a FAIR apologetics source change your mind?
I doubt you can listen because you still need it for your bash-lds ammo.

FAIR apologetics are not mormon canon…they contradict LDS church teaching, with wild leaps and assertions that have no backing.

I hope this is not what you are building your faith on, because honestly, it is just ewww. Like gum on the bottom of your shoe, you want it off, not sticking to you.

 

[Todd520]

FAIR apologetics are not mormon canon…they contradict LDS church teaching, with wild leaps and assertions that have no backing.

I hope this is not what you are building your faith on, because honestly, it is just ewww. Like gum on the bottom of your shoe, you want it off, not sticking to you.

rebecca,
You know FAIR publishes discussions of the question and response for LDS apologetics.
Their responses references canonical scripture.
I never said FAIR was scripture.

 

[Madaglan]

That is correct. We do believe the Father has a body of flesh and bones. We are made in His image, if He had no bodily form then we would not either.

I have to disagree with your logic. We are made as image but we are not duplicates. God is invisible while we are humanly perceptible. God is spirit, and is eternal and present everywhere. We are contingent and bound to place and time. We cannot say, like Jesus, the image of the invisible God, that the Father and I are one.

Man like God has free will and intellect. While God has dominion over the whole universe, man is given stewardship over all animals.

 

[Javl]

javl, I urge you to reply with facts or proper links to official sources.
If you disagree, back it up with offical sources

How can I if these “official sources” change with the wind? I speak from experience with my communications with various members of the LDS both in and out of this forum. If you do not agree with their “theology”, etc., then take it up with them for giving me false information. If I and you cannot depend upon them for the truth then my assertions are correct and no amount of bluster on your or the LDS part can change that.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by flyonthewall
That is correct. We do believe the Father has a body of flesh and bones. We are made in His image, if He had no bodily form then we would not either.

Jesus said that God is Spirit and we are to worship Him in Spirit. How can we if He is flesh and bones?

Please understand when the Bible says that we were made in His image. God is Spirit and although we have flesh and bones, we also have a spirit as described in the Bible. This is one of the many Biblical points and descriptions in which the LDS have erred and mis-understood.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall
Mormons belief is that Jesus is the physical son of god, born of a sexual act.

This is false. I think it best you stick to stating what you believe, because this is a prime example of you not knowing what we believe.

Jesus volunteered to come down to earth to save gods spirit children who wanted to experience mortality, but this brought sin and death. Jesus came to save them so that they could continue on to becoming gods themselves just like god the father and his father, and his father and his father etc……

Jesus gave your church a detailed plan to follow in order to keep progressing to become a god. Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. And god his father was once a man who also progressed to becoming a god.

***Different Jesus entirely. ***

Nope. Same person, differing beliefs about Him.

This is why we cannot have agreements here with the LDS. Don’t you find that a little odd?

I find it odd that you cannot see the agreements, instead, you manufacture disageements.

If we both worshipped the same Jesus we should embrace this in many ways. But it does not happen.

I embrace it, you do not.

Not believing in the same Jesus makes our conversations totally distorted. Mormons need to make it clear them selves that they are not Christian like Catholics and the Protestants.

More fabrications.

To sum this up: How can we speak about Jesus when we are speaking about two different Jesus’s.

To start with, you can finally realize that we are speaking about the same Jesus, we just believe different things about Him.

One that did hold His Church together, sinners in transition. My beleif, not to be forced upon you at all.

One who could not hold it together for 100 years. Leaving us behind for 18 hundred years or so.
Why would He do this, because we are sinners?

That makes no sense does it?

No less sense than every other time He has tried to establish His church.

For me there is not better, more righteous breed of people.
We are all in this together as to our sin. A good physician would not leave his post, his hospital. No he will stay and continue to cure those who enter.

Good to have something to believe in…

 

[flyonthewall]

I just pointed out how your statement was irrational and how it seems like you want your Jesus to be truly all powerful but he isn’t.

That is a bit like “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it”

No we don’t. But I have pointed out the hypocrisy of a Mormon making this claim

Oh but you do… If Jesus created Satan, then Jesus is the father of Satan. The hypocrisy lies in you.

So it is true. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
But you didn’t answer the question.

God the Father is Father of us all, including Jesus and Satan. Satan, having free agency, rebelled and was cast out. So what is the point? That we hold differing beliefs about Jesus? I said that a long time ago.

I don’t go through any lengths to de-Christianize Mormonism; Joseph Smith did in 1844 when he lead his people into apostasy.

You go to extreme lengths and me thinks thou protesteth too much.

 

[KathleenGee]

Regarding discernment and the burning in the bosom…and giving life to the Scriptures…this is our faith walk, our inner conversion to the life of Christ in His Word…

Burning in the bosom is not the means the Church uses to discern the Holy Spirit. As you can see from just the references to the Holy Trinity in regards to the Catholic Church, there is much depth and different perspectives on the Holy Trinity.

Instead of the individual fervor given us by the Holy Spirit in times of encouragement through periods of emotional consolation or insights combined with emotion, our Councils and theology reflect rather on the Church, its history and gathering of people, the issues people are dealing with at the time, and work in refuting heresies and disorders.

I will have to read more of the link Todd gave…but just looking at it, it appears reactionary to any authority of the ancient Church. There was heresy at that time, and it was those, who like Jesus followed Him up to the point of His comment of eating and drinking of His flesh and blood, they fell away. The great heresy of ancient Christian times was the refusal to accept the Body and Blood of Jesus through the Apostles…as well as other heresies as they encountered in the Acts, gnosticism…and eventual loss of faith in Christ as True Man.

 

[flyonthewall]

Make man in “our Image” / Holy Trinity / both male and female
Image in this sense flyonthewall means

“LOVE”
God posseses both male and femal qualities throughout all of eternity

God does not need bones and flesh, this is His creature created by “our image” God

We are in his image “love” but we are not “love” God is love and He has gifted this love to His creation. “us” all through Jesus. Its all about Him!

We get to share in what Jesus has always had with His Father throughout all of eternity.Powerful gift.

God lessoned Himself, becoming man in order to get into the trenches with us in order to save us. He did not have to do this. Send His Eternal Son Jsus. His Word made flesh.

God-Creator / us-created

This is very important for our salvation

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Not only image, but likeness too.

 

[flyonthewall]

Alot coming out…JimDandy has a piece drawn from the original 1830+ writings from the Mormons that came out yesterday, Dec 15, on who is right…‘Mormon or Catholic’…and it was of the same type of writings as I discovered going to an LDS store to find common ground and only esteem for the Mormons I met…I mean they were the ones that affected me and I wanted to find out more about their religion on my own.

Flyonthewall, you give me the impression you are a younger person and not aware of alot of the materials…the Mormons started changing their approach in regards to Catholics around 1997.

The materials are very bigoted and not the work of the Holy Spirit and do not reflect the Holy Spirit at work in the Church since its beginnings 2,000 years ago.

Kathleen, you keep stating that early materials were very bigoted, but never give a specific examples. Cite your sources. You keep telling me to give names and dates for the apostasy, so why don’t you give names and dates, and quotes?

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

In regards to the Holy Trinity, you said Catholics come on here with all sorts of takes on defining the Holy Trinity. In essence it is mystery.

Actually, my discussions about the Trinity was elsewhere, not here, and was not only with Catholics.

We believe that Jesus Christ…who is also True Man and Incarnate, was the means by which the carnate universe was made. God is Spirit…The whole concept of Holy Trinity is relationship…that we experience God in relationship and with each other.

Well here are some takes or contexts on references to the Holy Trinity in the Universal Catechism…

In the central mystery of faith

Concept of hypostosis

Concept of Substance

Divine economy as common work of the Divine Persons

Divine Persons:
Concept of Person,
Consubstantiality
Real distinction between;
Unity of Being

Expression of the Trinity
In Baptism
In philosophical concepts
In the early councils
In the liturgy

Family as an image of the communion of the Trinity

Filoque

Indwelling of the triune God in men
Liturgy as work of Liturgy

Revelation of this mystery
God as the Father
God, the Holy Spirit
God the Son CC 240, 242, 262, 663
Of the entire Trinity

Theologia and Oikonomia

The Triune God

The unity of the Trinity and the unity of the Church

Unity of God
and unity of the church

Chances are that the different takes the Catholics shared with you about the Holy Trinity were correct.

Some of the topics of explaining the Holy Trinity are also obviously the work of solid metaphysics…the study of reality common to all people.

Good faith always employs reason, analysis, and critical thinking to protect us from being fooled.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

Your post here on this thread, #352…is what I am referring to…

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, and sorry to say the LDS Church is one of them.

Are you stating that the LDS church was part of the Galatians?

This is not what I have learned in my conversations with Mormons, both on and off this forum and thread. The Book of Mormon is referenced to and quoted from first before anything in the Bible. There is no need of an additional testimony of, to, and for Jesus Christ.

Then you have learned erroneously. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ…In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Then you contradict yourself. Mormons believe that Jesus is the issue of the Father, who is an exalted man. He WAS BORN of a man, therefore your Jesus has a beginning.

Stick to professing your own beliefs as you do not understand the beliefs of others. Jesus is the Son of the Father. Jesus was born of a woman, Mary. Jesus existed before He was born of Mary and has no beginning.

Then, my friend, you are either blind to what is written or you completely ignore it to substatiate your claim. The Description of Our Triune God is most evident in the Bible.

Evidence you use to substantiate the Trinity can be used to substantiate the Godhead. I am not blind to it, I just read it a different way.

If that’s the case then how come that I’ve been told over and over again by Mormons, not only on this forum and thread, that there are three separate Gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who are united as one in purpose but not one as we Catholics believe?

They are 3 separate Gods, that function with one accord, and together they are the one true God.

Yes, I and we do. Their belief is not for that of ( a ) God, but of a “rabblerouser”.

So if we believed Jesus was a rabblerouser, then you could accept we were talking about the same Jesus? But because we recognize His divinity we must be thinking of a different Jesus? smacks forehead What a rabbit hole.

I am sorry to say that in my conversations and attempted dialog(s) with different Mormons I have found the following to be true:

1. Constant changing of beliefs and tenets to fit the situation.

1. Denial, tantamount to outright lying, of previous statements made concerning Mormon
   belief.

1. Ignoring pointed questions and subjects. I have questions posed about beliefs and
   refutations for which I have not ( and may never will ) receive(d) answers for.

1. A quick sly change of subject when a pointed question is asked.

1. Perhaps you think they change because you really don’t have a grasp on what we really beleive.
2. We deny none of our own beliefs…the fabrications others attribute to us we do deny.
3. Have I missed any questions and subjects you have posed to me? I try to get back with everyone but there are more of you than of me. Also, just because you do not agree with an answer does not mean an answer has not been given.
4. tangents are common in discussions when so many participate, they are not to avoid a question.

 

[flyonthewall]

Do you understand that eternal means that He had no beginning, that He did not progress from some already existing “intelligence”? Who are you trying to kid here?

I understand “eternal” as much as any finite person can. We claim that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father.
I am not trying to kid anyone. I tell you what our beliefs are. They don’t line up with your inaccurate understanding so you think I am trying to kid you
The concept of intelligences is very minimal in what we know. It is a mystery…surely you would understand “mystery”.

Then why do you say “yes”? Your disclaimer necessarily makes your answer “no”.

As I stated, matter and spirit cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Jesus transformed matter in the creation process, so I believe He is the creator of all that was made.

Again, it appears that you do not understand the meaning of “eternal”. And, again, this is not what you believe.

I know what I believe. You, however, have shown that you really don’t know what we believe. You take what you think we believe and hold it up as fact, but you are mistaken.

You did not answer my question. And yes, I believe He created Satan, but He did not create his jealousy and wickedness. The angels were created with free will just as we are. God does not make us sin, nor did he make Satan or any of the angles sin. It was their free choice. Your implication that I believe God is the Father of evil won’t wash.

God the Father is Father to us all, Jesus and Satan included. Satan had free will and rebelled. Satan was cast out and has no place with God.
I do not believe that you believe God is the father of evil, but was only illustrating the double standard you employ.

The first being an exalted man with flesh and bone. Not even close to the Christian belief in the nature of God.

I happen to believe it is spot on.

If you truly believed this you would not be constantly looking for new revelation.

I will have to back off of this as I took it to mean the fulfillment of prophecy. I do not believe revelation has not stopped but continues to this day.
Catholics keep asking why we believe Jesus would leave His church, but closing off revelation is the same thing.

 

[flyonthewall]

I have to disagree with your logic. We are made as image but we are not duplicates. God is invisible while we are humanly perceptible. God is spirit, and is eternal and present everywhere. We are contingent and bound to place and time. We cannot say, like Jesus, the image of the invisible God, that the Father and I are one.

Man like God has free will and intellect. While God has dominion over the whole universe, man is given stewardship over all animals.

The bible states that we were not only made in God’s image, but in His likeness too.
God is spirit as the scriptures state, but that does not preclude a physical body…the scriptures also say that we must worship Him in spirit…does that mean we cannot have a body and worship Him at the same time?
Jesus prayed that we will be one with Him as He and the Father are one.
I realize this is a point of disagreement, but our belief is based in scripture, even if it is not read the same way as others.

 

[Madaglan]

The bible states that we were not only made in God’s image, but in His likeness too.
God is spirit as the scriptures state, but that does not preclude a physical body…the scriptures also say that we must worship Him in spirit…does that mean we cannot have a body and worship Him at the same time?
Jesus prayed that we will be one with Him as He and the Father are one.
I realize this is a point of disagreement, but our belief is based in scripture, even if it is not read the same way as others.

We are made in the image of God, and our goal as Christians is to attain the likeness of God. Adam and Eve were created in a state of incorruption. When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the likeness of God (though they kept the image). Through participation in Christ, the perfect image and likeness of God, we attain to the likeness of God.

The Scriptures do speak of the eternal, pre-existent Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us; so it is possible to speak of spirit co-existing with a physical body; yet, the Scriptures also make it clear that the eternal, pre-existent Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Nowhere do the Scriptures speak of God the Father eternally having or taking on flesh.

Any group claiming to be Christian, whether being orthodox or heterodox, claims its beliefs are in Scripture. Given what I know of LDS beliefs, I see the LDS hermeneutic as skewed in certain respects. I could point to Church Fathers going back to the 2nd century who describe the Father as incorporeal, but given the fact that the LDS believes a great Apostasy occurred with the death of the last Apostle, quoting these Fathers would be of little effect.

 

[Javl]

Are you stating that the LDS church was part of the Galatians?

Then you have learned erroneously. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ…In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Stick to professing your own beliefs as you do not understand the beliefs of others. Jesus is the Son of the Father. Jesus was born of a woman, Mary. Jesus existed before He was born of Mary and has no beginning.

Evidence you use to substantiate the Trinity can be used to substantiate the Godhead. I am not blind to it, I just read it a different way.

They are 3 separate Gods, that function with one accord, and together they are the one true God.

So if we believed Jesus was a rabblerouser, then you could accept we were talking about the same Jesus? But because we recognize His divinity we must be thinking of a different Jesus? smacks forehead What a rabbit hole.

1. Perhaps you think they change because you really don’t have a grasp on what we really beleive.
2. We deny none of our own beliefs…the fabrications others attribute to us we do deny.
3. Have I missed any questions and subjects you have posed to me? I try to get back with everyone but there are more of you than of me. Also, just because you do not agree with an answer does not mean an answer has not been given.
4. tangents are common in discussions when so many participate, they are not to avoid a question.

Thank you for your answers. I must say that you had better get together with all the other Mormons that I have discussed and dialoged with because your understandings and beliefs are altogether different from what I have learned from them. All these that I have been in contact with, both on and off this forum, are my source of information along with whatever LDS publications that I have read. If you have issues to take up, take it up with them. There has to be some modicum of truth in Mormonism somewhere.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you for your answers. I must say that you had better get together with all the other Mormons that I have discussed and dialoged with because your understandings and beliefs are altogether different from what I have learned from them. All these that I have been in contact with, both on and off this forum, are my source of information along with whatever LDS publications that I have read. If you have issues to take up, take it up with them. There has to be some modicum of truth in Mormonism somewhere.

Shalom haMeshiach

JAVL,

As I have read Flyonthewall’s responses, I don’t think the statement you have made about his “understandings and beliefs are altogether different” is accurate at all. He would have nothing to “take up with them” because they would have no issue with things he has written. Just because we may not use the same exact word or phrase in every response about a subject, does not mean the meaning conveyed is not a similar meaning.

Peace and blessings of health and the joy of the Christ child and His redemptive love to you, JAVL.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, and sorry to say the LDS Church is one of them.

I know what you mean.
"Galatians 1:6-9:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse

I am sorry to say that in my conversations and attempted dialog(s) with different Mormons I have found the following to be true:

1. Constant changing of beliefs and tenets to fit the situation.
2. Denial, tantamount to outright lying, of previous statements made concerning Mormon
   belief.
3. Ignoring pointed questions and subjects. I have questions posed about beliefs and
   refutations for which I have not ( and may never will ) receive(d) answers for.
4. A quick sly change of subject when a pointed question is asked.

I have experienced 3 & 4 as well.

 

[Tmaque]

I am familiar with it, and it is NOT canonical.
Will pointing you to a FAIR apologetics source change your mind?
I doubt you can listen because you still need it for your bash-lds ammo.

Todd,
The vast majority of LDS believe (and it is taught in most wards), that God, through eternal progression became God, after starting existence as a man. Also, it is taught that we, through eternal progression, may become gods as well. I live in Utah, I come from a large LDS family, I know literally hundreds of LDS. ALL of them believe that God was once a man, and that man may become a god. This is fact. Whether explicitly taught in your ward or not, this IS LDS theology.