LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[onenow1]

Evidence you use to substantiate the Trinity can be used to substantiate the Godhead. I am not blind to it, I just read it a different way…

Hi Fly
Can you be more specific in how you read it ?

God Bless

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

You are not representing what Mormons believe…where are you located? I have read that there are Mormons who do not believe any more in Joseph Smith…but stay in your religion.

The Great Apostasy was to come in the Latter Days…and I am among those who saw it come with Luther’s Sola Scriptura, his changing one word in Scripture…an angel of God appeared to him and told him not to do that, but he did. He was a very scrupulous man, and there is more on where he actually developed his ideas…The truth is that before his time, the Church always lived and believed that our faith is a work of grace from Christ, and that we are called to be in a daily walk with Him, our life itself a growth in grace.

Also, you are not acknowledging the historical fact that Mormon’s base is anti-Catholic. I don’t have time today to go through the link on Mormons disputing the Holy Trinity…I read through part of it and it takes sides with the heretics of ancient times. These religions spend alot of their time invalidating Christianity.

You come to a Catholic Church, you go to RCIA, you will find we do not need to do that to other faiths…we simply point out their errors…but not with the same invalidation you find that they have for us…this is also another false fruit…of the Great Apostasy.

I do not see how anyone who knows Scripture would believe in the beliefs attributed to Joseph Smith. And I do not understand how the Mormons can justify their religion that is always changing.

It looks the Mormons will go along with you…but the moment anything is ID’d as Catholic – like celebrating Christmas and designating Dec 25 as the Lord’s day to celebrate as a Church, that will be rejected, too.

The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and SDA’s all came out of that Restorationist movement…that wasn’t happening in Europe…comprised of Americans totally out of touch with Catholics. These belief systems are intensely anti-clerical…Every so often, a copy of the Watchtower comes by…one was planted at the Catholic hospital…and predictably there is an article, many times with photos of Catholics, putting their false spins on our beliefs. Some were coming to visit my mother who was an invalid with judgment impairments, but could answer the door and was very friendly. I pointed out to her materials in those booklets and we tossed them out.

I remember reading some stories of Mormon missionaries, young people, who were sent to Italy. They were passing out anti-Catholic tracts at the door of Catholic churches and cathedrals…this probably in the late 70’s to 80’s…they were speaking of the contempt the Italians had for them to do such insulting things to them…

If you didn’t have the Catholic Church, – Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, and SDA’s would not exist. If you claim a belief is Catholic, they will immediately denounce it without thinking.

 

[scipio337]

I am familiar with it, and it is NOT canonical.
Will pointing you to a FAIR apologetics source change your mind?
I doubt you can listen because you still need it for your bash-lds ammo.

“Bash-lds ammo”? How charitable of you.

Well, at least FAIR points out Hinckley’s artful dodge.

On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, "I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.

fairlds.org/Misc/Does_President_Hinckley_Understand_LDS_Doctrine.html

FAIR dodges the same question on the same page:

President Hinckley did not deny this part of President Snow’s couplet. He merely said we do not emphasize it, which is true. We are more concerned with our future, not Heavenly Father’s past… But again, we do not emphasize Heavenly Father’s past, but the possibility of our future.

FAIR also admits it is part of the Gospel Principles manual.

The Prophet Jose**ph Smith said: ‘If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible–I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form’ (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22).

How about the FAIR wiki? They point out Hinckley’s implicit agreement with Snow’s couplet:

Finally, any claim that President Hinckley did not believe the King Follett Discourse or the Lorenzo Snow couplet has to deal with this contemporary public statement from a talk he gave in October 1994 General Conference:

…[T]he whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom.[4]
Although he did not mention the other half of President Snow’s statement (“As man is, God once was”), it’s quite clear from the context that President Hinckley was aware of and agreed with it.

en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/Hinckley_downplaying_the_King_Follett_Discourse#Conclusion

But they also appear to “kick the can” as Hinckley did.

“The Mormon God was once a mortal man on another planet.”
Many Latter-day Saints infer that because we, as children of God, now live as mortals in this world and have the potential to become gods through the atonement of Christ, that God the Father must have gone through a similar process to be where He is. Early leaders (including Joseph Smith) taught something to this effect. But… it’s something about which we know very little, since nothing formal has been revealed to the Church and very little was explained by early leaders. Could it be so? Logically, yes, but we simply don’t know very much about it. As far as we are concerned, God the Father has always been our God and always will be, and we leave it at that. Anything else is really just theological speculation—interesting, but not terribly important.

en.fairmormon.org/MormonFAQ/Myths_and_Questions#.22The_Mormon_God_was_once_a_mortal_man_on_another_planet…22

I’m sorry, but I consider the history and origin (or Eternal Being) of the One I worship to be highly important.

I’m sorry you take truth as “bash-lds ammo”.

 

[SteveVH]

I understand “eternal” as much as any finite person can. We claim that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father. I am not trying to kid anyone. I tell you what our beliefs are. They don’t line up with your inaccurate understanding so you think I am trying to kid you The concept of intelligences is very minimal in what we know. It is a mystery…surely you would understand “mystery”.

No, you believe that Jesus progressed, from something less to something more. We believe He has shared the divine glory with the Father from eternity, without beginning and without end. He did not “become”. He is.

As I stated, matter and spirit cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Jesus transformed matter in the creation process, so I believe He is the creator of all that was made.

Except for the matter that existed, apparently, before Him. You’re trying to muddy the waters here and it won’t work. Nothing existed, including matter, intelligences and the like, before God. You limit Him to having to work with whatever He found laying around the universe, and then “organizing” it like someone baking a cake. No. When He said “Let there be light” there was light. His words create, not organize.

God the Father is Father to us all, Jesus and Satan included. Satan had free will and rebelled. Satan was cast out and has no place with God. I do not believe that you believe God is the father of evil, but was only illustrating the double standard you employ.

This is because you do not understand who Jesus is. He is not the Father of anyone in the way that He is Father to Jesus. This is because Jesus was not created. He has always been with the Father. We have not. We and the angels (which includes Satan) are creatures; He is the creator. There is an infinite and eternal difference here. He will always be the creator, without beginning or end. We and the angels will always be creatures. We had a beginning. He does not.

I will have to back off of this as I took it to mean the fulfillment of prophecy. I do not believe revelation has not stopped but continues to this day. Catholics keep asking why we believe Jesus would leave His church, but closing off revelation is the same thing.

Closing off revelation only makes sense if everything has already been revealed. It has, in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is the full revelation of God. There is nothing left to reveal. As I have said before, this does not mean that He has stopped communicating with His Church. Indeed, He constantly speaks to us and has never stopped since He fully revealed Himself to His Church.

I’ll be gone for a couple of days.

God bless.

 

[Timothy17]

God is not a windbag.

That is undoubtedly the most concise refutation of Mormon apologetics I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

As I have read Flyonthewall’s responses, I don’t think the statement you have made about his “understandings and beliefs are altogether different” is accurate at all. He would have nothing to “take up with them” because they would have no issue with things he has written. Just because we may not use the same exact word or phrase in every response about a subject, does not mean the meaning conveyed is not a similar meaning.

Peace and blessings of health and the joy of the Christ child and His redemptive love to you, JAVL.

PARKER:

The trouble that I have found in my communications with you and other Mormons, both in this forum ( and thread ) and those outside, is the lack of consistency in the LDS “theology”. When I ask the same question of various LDS, I get a different answer every time. I assure you the meanings told me are vastly different.

As an example: in the discussion of the Trinity concerning Jesus, I am told that He had no beginning by one LDS and that He was born after a sexual encounter between the Father and Mary by another LDS. Which is the truth for LDS? Which should I accept? There are many other instances such as this.

The comments I make are not top of the head or wild guesses that I would make, but all based on information given me, by not only you but many others. This information is not only verbal but printed also, which includes LDS publications.

If you wish other examples I can supply them.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by flyonthewall;
As I stated, matter and spirit cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Jesus transformed matter in the creation process, so I believe He is the creator of all that was made.

Like many other religions who do not know and understand the Bible, you give God human attributes. God is omniscient and omnipotent. As such nothing is impossible to or for Him. Therefore He can create out of nothing. When He created it was not the organization of matter but actual creation out of nothingness.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Timothy17]

Paul had already found one of the churches to be preaching another gospel, but not another gospel just a altered or perverted version of the Gospel. It was underway already.

I am not surprised that you think we have a different gospel.
Yawn…about the “different Jesus” bit.

Yawn ? I am sorry, but if you think worshipping another god rather than the True God is only worthy of a yawn, then what are you doing on these forums ?

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
I make the same statementn as Peter and you call it false. Perhaps Peter worshiped a ‘different’ Jesus than you, too. It appears I am in good company with Peter.

You try to refute the well-known fact that Mormons do not believe Jesus is God by quoting the passage made famous by Catholics in defense of the guarantee by Him to His successors that His Church would be protected and guided through all of history ? Do you not see how brazenly irrationale that is ? That passage makes perfect sense in Catholicism ; in Mormonism, it is perverted and slandered and abused to mean that His Church would be utterly forsaken and abandoned by God until a gun-slinging criminal polygamist 1,800 years later would have a revelation about God, then join a Masonic lodge and incorporate some of its practices into his new religion, which apparently direct revelation was insufficient to suppliment for its religious diet, seeing as this new religion also required a generous borrowing from man-made Masonry.

Would you say that the Jews refer to a different Jesus? Or would you say they don’t hold the same beliefs about Him?

Wow. You really need to pick your examples better. Clearly you haven’t the faintest clue what the rabbis teach and believe about a man named Jesus, whose mother was called Mary.

Let me re-phrase: our view of Jesus is different from yours. Same Jesus, different view.

I charged you with shameless sophistry and this is your reply ! My Jesus is none other than God Almighty : yours is not, by your own admission. This isn’t simply “a different view.” Jesus is God Almighty : your religion will call Him anything and everything but, which renders lip service but is not the Truth.

The truth is, we worship the same Jesus, we just have differing beliefs about Him. Simple. But somehow un-grasped by a few.

Seriously ? Repeating it doesn’t change anything. What you seem not to grasp is that Christ, in Christianity, is God. You seem to think removing that single title and keeping all the rest is an insignificant change or difference : there is a big difference between Henry of England who lived in the early 16th century and King Henry of England who ruled in the early 16th century.

I speak true. It is definately juvenile to try and state we worship a different Jesus. It is such a simple concept to understand that different people can see a single individual differently. But perhaps it is above your ability to understand. Again, so be it.

It certainly is not above or beyond my ability. Your religion is literally jeuvenile compared to Christianity : it’s about 1,800 years too young to be the religion established by Christ Himself.

The wolves have already been and not spared the flock. If you disagree, then take it up with Paul. Perhaps he too, worshiped a “different” Jesus than you.

Oh, I somehow doubt that. Now, if St. Paul preached polygamy or racism against native Americans then perhaps I might worry whether or not I worshipped the wrong Jesus. But seeing as neither Paul nor any other apostle preached any such thing (though your “apostles” did) I am not worried.

I understand you disagree with what we believe. That’s okay, the prevailing religious leaders of the day had worse to say about Jesus.

Yes, they put Him to death for claiming to be God’s equal. He later Ressurected and appeared before His Apostles, with one saying, “My Lord and my God !” No one thought to correct him - not those then present, including Jesus, nor those who would record the event for time immemorial later on, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all this happening well before your church’s fictional “Great Apostasy.” So the charism of Truth was certainly present, but that Truth did not bother to ensure people would not confuse Jesus for God at this very moment, and rather guided the writers of Holy Writ to confuse readers by letting them hear a chosen Apostle refer to Jesus as his God. A Divine “Whoops,” perhaps ?

I am going to make this very clear : Jesus Himself asked, “Who do you say that I am ?” Christians confess that He is God. They have for 2,000 years, with many suffering death, persecution and tortures for saying it - so who do you say that He is ? If He is not God for you, then your Jesus is just a man, and not God ; however, for us, He is both God and Man. Now clearly there is not a small difference between mere man and Almighty God, and trying to claim that this difference is insignificant is, frankly, absurd.

Tim

 

[flyonthewall]

Hi Fly
Can you be more specific in how you read it ?

God Bless

It is simply that when it mentions that the Father and Son are one, they are of one accord, purpose, testimony, authority etc…just like when the scriptures state:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. "
This is not saying they really become one flesh numerically, they are still two separate people, but they are one in purpose, of one accord, of one goal.
And besides, Jesus Christ, whom we see as God, stated that He too, has a God…God the Father.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

You are not representing what Mormons believe…where are you located? I have read that there are Mormons who do not believe any more in Joseph Smith…but stay in your religion.

I am in Utah, but grew up in California, and spent some time in the greath Northwest.

The Great Apostasy was to come in the Latter Days…and I am among those who saw it come with Luther’s Sola Scriptura, his changing one word in Scripture…an angel of God appeared to him and told him not to do that, but he did. He was a very scrupulous man, and there is more on where he actually developed his ideas…The truth is that before his time, the Church always lived and believed that our faith is a work of grace from Christ, and that we are called to be in a daily walk with Him, our life itself a growth in grace.

This is your belief so I accept it as you state. I do not try and tell you what you believe.

Also, you are not acknowledging the historical fact that Mormon’s base is anti-Catholic. I don’t have time today to go through the link on Mormons disputing the Holy Trinity…I read through part of it and it takes sides with the heretics of ancient times. These religions spend alot of their time invalidating Christianity.

I do not acknowledge any anti-Catholic base as it is not there. We are pro-LDS, pro-restoration, not anti-Catholic.

You come to a Catholic Church, you go to RCIA, you will find we do not need to do that to other faiths…we simply point out their errors…but not with the same invalidation you find that they have for us…this is also another false fruit…of the Great Apostasy.

As we simply proclaim the truth. Yet some how it seems okay for you to point out errors of others, but it is offensive for the tables to be turned…hmmm.

I do not see how anyone who knows Scripture would believe in the beliefs attributed to Joseph Smith. And I do not understand how the Mormons can justify their religion that is always changing.

You are welcome to your opinion.

It looks the Mormons will go along with you…but the moment anything is ID’d as Catholic – like celebrating Christmas and designating Dec 25 as the Lord’s day to celebrate as a Church, that will be rejected, too.

I am not sure where this is coming from because the LDS church celebrates Christmas on Dec 25th, just like the rest of the world.

The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and SDA’s all came out of that Restorationist movement…that wasn’t happening in Europe…comprised of Americans totally out of touch with Catholics. These belief systems are intensely anti-clerical…Every so often, a copy of the Watchtower comes by…one was planted at the Catholic hospital…and predictably there is an article, many times with photos of Catholics, putting their false spins on our beliefs. Some were coming to visit my mother who was an invalid with judgment impairments, but could answer the door and was very friendly. I pointed out to her materials in those booklets and we tossed them out.

The best way to teach about your faith is to promote your own faith.

I remember reading some stories of Mormon missionaries, young people, who were sent to Italy. They were passing out anti-Catholic tracts at the door of Catholic churches and cathedrals…this probably in the late 70’s to 80’s…they were speaking of the contempt the Italians had for them to do such insulting things to them…

This type of thing is frowned on. I was a missionary in the early 80s and we were required to attend ambassadorship classes which stressed very strongly NOT to disrepect the faith of others. So if missionaries were doing it, it was against church directives.

If you didn’t have the Catholic Church, – Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, and SDA’s would not exist. If you claim a belief is Catholic, they will immediately denounce it without thinking.

I think you overstate things. LDS have always stated that there is truth in all faiths, and all faiths do good. Just because we don’t think the Catholic church has the fulness of the gospel, does not mean we are anti-Catholic. You believe all other faiths outside of the Catholic church do not have the fulness, does that mean you are anti-?

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

I see a consistency in your sharings here…I don’t think you are a part of that which we are addressing…but we are indeed looking at the foundation of Mormonism…and it is part of those new religions that were based on a virulent form of anti-Catholicism…

Certainly, the killings between Protestant and Catholics after the Reformation was very, very bad…but that alone says there is something not right when Christians…when you look at the beginnings of faith…do such things to each other in the name of Christ.

And it goes for those Christians who call us terrible names…this is not the work of the Holy Spirit. I found these texts as others have quoted…in an LDS store in the past 5 years…2 miles from my house next to their temple…so I know people here are not lying about the foundations of your religion.

So it is truthful that Mormonism’s basic construct is anti-Catholic. There is also the apparent ignorance of our beliefs, our practice and worship, and the history of saints that provide great testimony to our faith.

I have alot of respect for the Mormon people…but it is the teachings and they do not stand.

The Apostles were indeed chosen by Christ to begin the work of founding His church and appointing their successors…that is only right. To deny the Apostles the right to prayerfully choose their successors to bring Jesus to each and every generation was their life’s work, and practically every single one of them died the death of a martyr…To shed’s one blood but disregard providing successors is a tremendous contradiction to the testimony of faith of our Apostles who knew Jesus and lived with Him for over 3 years…of course they would lay down foundation, certainly they would ensure the mission of Christ’s salvation and redemption would continue because He died for all mankind…every generation all up to the beginnings of Mormonism.

The Apostles’ forthcoming martyrdoms witnessed the life of the Holy Spirit in them…

And this denial by Mormonism that the Apostles had no right to provide successors has absolutely no credibilty or reason.

 

[flyonthewall]

No, you believe that Jesus progressed, from something less to something more. We believe He has shared the divine glory with the Father from eternity, without beginning and without end. He did not “become”. He is.

Here you go telling me what I believe again…sigh.
Jesus was God before His mortal birth and eternally so. There was never a point at which God the Father was not God. Why is it so difficult for you to accept my belief is as I state?

Except for the matter that existed, apparently, before Him. You’re trying to muddy the waters here and it won’t work. Nothing existed, including matter, intelligences and the like, before God. You limit Him to having to work with whatever He found laying around the universe, and then “organizing” it like someone baking a cake. No. When He said “Let there be light” there was light. His words create, not organize.

Please do expound on what existed before God. You claim God has always existed. Fine. Then you should be able to understand that matter has always existed in one form or another.
This particular topic is a go nowhere topic as eternity is a concept that just does not translate very well in our finite existance. You take infinite concepts and argue about them in a finite context. Can you expand on how something can have no beginning? Can you describe how something is made from nothing?
Can you describe how God’s words create? Was it instantaneous? Was the light He created on the first day different than the lights He created on the fourth day? Isn’t light, light? Why did it take Him 7 days to create the earth if He could just speak it into existance?
There are a lot of things we just don’t have all the answers to, but somehow you manange to know what the answer can or cannot be.

This is because you do not understand who Jesus is. He is not the Father of anyone in the way that He is Father to Jesus. This is because Jesus was not created. He has always been with the Father. We have not. We and the angels (which includes Satan) are creatures; He is the creator. There is an infinite and eternal difference here. He will always be the creator, without beginning or end. We and the angels will always be creatures. We had a beginning. He does not.

Can you give me your interpretation of the following:
Colosians 1:15"[Speaking of Jesus]Who is the image of the invisible God, the **firstborn **of every creature". Jesus was not born before Adam & Eve were created, nor was He the firstborn of Adam and Eve. How can He be the firstborn of every creature if there were creatures born before Him?

Closing off revelation only makes sense if everything has already been revealed. It has, in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is the full revelation of God. There is nothing left to reveal. As I have said before, this does not mean that He has stopped communicating with His Church. Indeed, He constantly speaks to us and has never stopped since He fully revealed Himself to His Church.

Well, you might have a point if Revelation actually stopped with Jesus. It did not. It continued decades after His resurrection and ascension. If all revelaton stopped with Jesus because He was the full revelation of God, then the entire book of Revelation should be thown out because it was written after revelation was supposed to have stopped

I’ll be gone for a couple of days.

God bless.

I wish you a very Merry Christmas if I don’t hear from you before.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

If I may add…you are the type of people representing the assimilation of Mormons into mainline Christianity…

 

[flyonthewall]

Like many other religions who do not know and understand the Bible, you give God human attributes. God is omniscient and omnipotent. As such nothing is impossible to or for Him. Therefore He can create out of nothing. When He created it was not the organization of matter but actual creation out of nothingness.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

God had been given human attributes throughout the Bible, but you are welcome to your beliefs.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yawn ? I am sorry, but if you think worshipping another god rather than the True God is only worthy of a yawn, then what are you doing on these forums ?

The yawn was about your continued strawman claims. You manufacture a “different” Jesus, and assign him to us.
I came to these forums to learn about your faith, and to help correct erroneous beliefs others have about my own…there is a lot of work in that area. I do not accept others delegating my belief to m.

You try to refute the well-known fact that Mormons do not believe Jesus is God by quoting the passage made famous by Catholics in defense of the guarantee by Him to His successors that His Church would be protected and guided through all of history ? Do you not see how brazenly irrationale that is ? That passage makes perfect sense in Catholicism’

This passage makes perfect sense in Mormonism too. You are ignorant in the extreme about what we believe.

; in Mormonism, it is perverted and slandered and abused to mean that His Church would be utterly forsaken and abandoned by God until a gun-slinging criminal polygamist 1,800 years later would have a revelation about God, then join a Masonic lodge and incorporate some of its practices into his new religion, which apparently direct revelation was insufficient to suppliment for its religious diet, seeing as this new religion also required a generous borrowing from man-made Masonry.

I recommend you quit tilting at windmills. The strawmen you have created have taken a beating…it’s comical to watch though.

Wow. You really need to pick your examples better. Clearly you haven’t the faintest clue what the rabbis teach and believe about a man named Jesus, whose mother was called Mary.

When Jews refer to Jesus, is it the same one you talk about? Tell me, have you fabricated a different Jesus for every religion that talks about Him?

I charged you with shameless sophistry and this is your reply ! My Jesus is none other than God Almighty : yours is not, by your own admission. This isn’t simply “a different view.” Jesus is God Almighty : your religion will call Him anything and everything but, which renders lip service but is not the Truth.

The shameless sophistry is your own. You are the one that fabricates beleifs and assigns them to others. You will not accept statements of belief from others if they do not fit the pre-conceived notions you already have.

Seriously ? Repeating it doesn’t change anything. What you seem not to grasp is that Christ, in Christianity, is God. You seem to think removing that single title and keeping all the rest is an insignificant change or difference : there is a big difference between Henry of England who lived in the early 16th century and King Henry of England who ruled in the early 16th century.

Just what exactly makes you think we believe Jesus is not God? You keep making false statements like this and expect to be taken seriously. If you would stop spreading falsehoods long enough, you might just come to understand what someone else believes, and it is different than what you manufactured in your own head.

It certainly is not above or beyond my ability. Your religion is literally jeuvenile compared to Christianity : it’s about 1,800 years too young to be the religion established by Christ Himself.

Then let me try it again…We believe in the same Jesus that you do. Some of our beliefs about Him may differ(Him being God is not one of them).

Oh, I somehow doubt that. Now, if St. Paul preached polygamy or racism against native Americans then perhaps I might worry whether or not I worshipped the wrong Jesus. But seeing as neither Paul nor any other apostle preached any such thing (though your “apostles” did) I am not worried.

Again, it was Paul that made the statement, I see you changed the subject.

Yes, they put Him to death for claiming to be God’s equal. He later Ressurected and appeared before His Apostles, with one saying, “My Lord and my God !” No one thought to correct him - not those then present, including Jesus, nor those who would record the event for time immemorial later on, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all this happening well before your church’s fictional “Great Apostasy.” So the charism of Truth was certainly present, but that Truth did not bother to ensure people would not confuse Jesus for God at this very moment, and rather guided the writers of Holy Writ to confuse readers by letting them hear a chosen Apostle refer to Jesus as his God. A Divine “Whoops,” perhaps ?

Bravo, you have slain that strawman! This has absolutely nothing to do with anything, as we believe Jesus is God the Son.

I am going to make this very clear : Jesus Himself asked, “Who do you say that I am ?” Christians confess that He is God. They have for 2,000 years, with many suffering death, persecution and tortures for saying it - so who do you say that He is ? If He is not God for you, then your Jesus is just a man, and not God ; however, for us, He is both God and Man. Now clearly there is not a small difference between mere man and Almighty God, and trying to claim that this difference is insignificant is, frankly, absurd.

You remind me of Rosanna Rosanna Dana. Really. You need to listen better.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

God already revealed His son to us 2000 years ago.

I would not trust any other description of Christ, especially if it says everyone else is wrong…

 

[catholic-rcia]

Actually, my discussions about the Trinity was elsewhere, not here, and was not only with Catholics.

Todd
When I read the scriptures I see Trinity laced throughout…its everywhere. I also have a sense of the Trinity in my daily life. Its profound…huge! If you have any questionms about this scripture below please ask. It also talks about Jesus creating satan, (all pricipalites and powers) of course he created him a good angel. He turned because he was jeoluse of Jesus. All sin comes out of this. Even our on weather we know this or not. To want what our Creator has as if we could have it as our own. Impossible. We only get to share in what Jesus offers. And it is so good enough for me.

Collosians 1:16-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell,
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

 

[Stephen168]

The Book of Mormon is not above the Gospel, but contains the gospel.

Smith does claim the Book of Mormon contained the Gospel and it is a history of the all the aboriginal people of the Americans.
Pearl of Great Price:

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Science has already shown that Smith’s claim about the history is false, but we can see what the Book of Mormon says about God.

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,

without end. Amen.
Mosiah 15:1-5:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
** And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.**
Alma 11:28-29:

Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.

Alma 11:44:

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned** before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God,**

to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

It does seem the Book of Mormon was written by an orthodox Christian before 1830. Telling us there in only one God and he will be made flesh and dwell among us.

Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

Mormon 9:9:

For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Moroni 8:18:

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Seems orthodox, too. God is eternally the same in the beginning, today, and forever. God created everything.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God.

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that** He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. **
Joseph Smith 1844:

How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.

Joseph Smith 1844:

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.

Now Smith takes his people into Apostasy; teaching of many Gods, God the Father and Jesus Christ not being the same, God not being the same in the beginning. The date of an Apostasy is April 1844.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

I see a consistency in your sharings here…I don’t think you are a part of that which we are addressing…but we are indeed looking at the foundation of Mormonism…and it is part of those new religions that were based on a virulent form of anti-Catholicism…

Certainly, the killings between Protestant and Catholics after the Reformation was very, very bad…but that alone says there is something not right when Christians…when you look at the beginnings of faith…do such things to each other in the name of Christ.

And it goes for those Christians who call us terrible names…this is not the work of the Holy Spirit. I found these texts as others have quoted…in an LDS store in the past 5 years…2 miles from my house next to their temple…so I know people here are not lying about the foundations of your religion.

So it is truthful that Mormonism’s basic construct is anti-Catholic. There is also the apparent ignorance of our beliefs, our practice and worship, and the history of saints that provide great testimony to our faith.

You are still proclaiming your opinion as truth. Our basic construct is the restoration. Really, Catholicism was not mentioned as part of religious excitement that was going on at the time, so I would say that it wasn’t a main player in that part of the country at that time.

I have alot of respect for the Mormon people…but it is the teachings and they do not stand.

The Apostles were indeed chosen by Christ to begin the work of founding His church and appointing their successors…that is only right. To deny the Apostles the right to prayerfully choose their successors to bring Jesus to each and every generation was their life’s work, and practically every single one of them died the death of a martyr…To shed’s one blood but disregard providing successors is a tremendous contradiction to the testimony of faith of our Apostles who knew Jesus and lived with Him for over 3 years…of course they would lay down foundation, certainly they would ensure the mission of Christ’s salvation and redemption would continue because He died for all mankind…every generation all up to the beginnings of Mormonism.

The Apostles’ forthcoming martyrdoms witnessed the life of the Holy Spirit in them…

And this denial by Mormonism that the Apostles had no right to provide successors has absolutely no credibilty or reason.

Again, we do not deny the Apostles the right to choose their successors, they simply did not. You even state that the Apostles all died wihout selecting new Apostles. The authority to govern the church lay with the Apostles. The leaders they selected were local leaders of congregations, not the whole church.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Smith does claim the Book of Mormon contained the Gospel and it is a history of the all the aboriginal people of the Americans.
Science has already shown that Smith’s claim about the history is false, but we can see what the Book of Mormon says about God.
It does seem the Book of Mormon was written by an orthodox Christian before 1830. Telling us there in only one God and he will be made flesh and dwell among us.
Seems orthodox, too. God is eternally the same in the beginning, today, and forever. God created everything.

Now Smith takes his people into Apostasy; teaching of many Gods, God the Father and Jesus Christ not being the same, God not being the same in the beginning. The date of an Apostasy is April 1844.

I once asked my Utah Priest if he ever read the book of Mormon, does he have one.
He pointed to a shelf that had about 10 copies given to him by Mormon missionaries…

We talked about the point you are making. Not only was an “other” gospel brought forth that appeared Christian, a completely other gospel is brought forth out of the original. Its like slight of hand. Do you know how many times I get asked “have you read the book of Mormon”
It has nothing to do with their theology. Its like here I am, see me? But in the end its not really that person.

Rich
www.utahmission.com