LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Jerusha]

Mormonism arose from the Campbellite movement, which openly taught the apostasy doctrine. Yup-- the googlehook found it. books.google.com/books?id=mnIwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=alexander+campbell+bishop+debate&source=bl&ots=levF6_m76X&sig=e18PQ8_Fxn6NDm_Ecm9fcUsNPrM&hl=en&ei=ojsNTYDtMoicnwfesKDZDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Some really good arguments pro and con on the “apostasy”

Alexander Campbell later became a bitter enemy of Sidney Rigdon.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Rebecca made me aware of the Stone Campbell movement that also drew on the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists.\

I also browsed through the blue covenants…used to be a speed reader since 8years old, and saw same type of references you share here from Nephi…these remarks are all judging by appearance…prejudice and bigotry.

I am also referring not only to fundamentalists in those days, but the Christians who came to America were also very prejudiced against Catholics…some alleged that the separation of Church and State was a Protestant movement to hedge in the Catholics.

 

[Jerusha]

'Becca and I have been internet friends for a long time.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would love to meet her…she has a sense of humor…I have a picture of her wearing a wool coat coming out of Mass at the Cathedral in the winter…we would have become parishioners there and live up near the University if we had moved there.

 

[flyonthewall]

II Nephi 28

There is more. However, I disagree that JS wrote this. Jockers et al indicate that Sidney Rigdon may have written this. People back home, whose ancestors had met JS, do not believe that JS could have written the BoM. He lacked a bit in the literacy dept.

I find it interesting that JS had nothing but praise for the local Catholic priest, Fr. John Alleman. He may have been the only priest JS had actually ever met.

You should have cited the earlier verses too…

3For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—

4And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

5And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

6Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

Notice the qualification set forth, then the description of those church about whom he is referring to. There are no names of churches mentioned in these scriptures, but a description …Are you stating that this describes the Catholic church?

I realize the Catholic church had its dark time, but do you really think the Catholic church fits the description?

 

[flyonthewall]

Kathleen, you may be thinking of Bruce McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” which has been repudiated by the LDS church. There was a lot of offensive stuff in it.

I have stated this before, but it was not heard.
McConkie made offensive statements about the Catholic church in the book “Mormon Doctrine”, but the LDS church instructed him to remove it as it does not reflect teachings of the LDS church.
Unfortunately, some still attribute those statements to the LDS church, even though it has been repudiated by the LDS church.

 

[Jerusha]

I realize the Catholic church had its dark time, but do you really think the Catholic church fits the description?

It fits the anti-Catholic rhetoric of the time very precisely. Anti-Catholics had a very warped perception of the Catholic Church. Very similar to those anti-Mormons who quote McConkie’s anti-Catholic passages, and call them Mormon doctrine. Perhaps you ought to read the Campbell-Purcell debate.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic Church had its dark points…but it also was having its good points at the same time…you always will have the chaff with the wheat.

The phrase, ‘Roman Church’ was indeed the wording I saw at the Latter Day Saints Deseret store…and I did not enter the LDS store with an adversarial spirit or with the intent to rebuke whatever I read. And I recall only looking at the Pearl of Great Price and the blue book on Mormon decrees, McConkie online, and the president in 1997 rebuking all direct statements identifying the Catholic Church.

Problem is you still cannot separate the Mormon claim of apostasy at the beginning of Christianity from its opposition to the Catholic Church. The small heretical and apostate groups at the beginning of Christianity were small and later in a few hundred years became recognizable as their own entities. St. John the Evangelist would leave the public bath when a heretic entered…focus on individual…but an apostate is also a person, as well as a body of believers that rejects the true Christian faith as given us by Christ Himself and the apostles.

I have to get going…Everyone have a Blessed Advent…and continue to seek the truth. I pray for you all and God bless all of you !

 

[Jerusha]

are.as.wvu.edu/baker.htm

books.google.com/books?id=QPW4-Ej3rGAC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=anti-catholicism+in+the+united+states&source=bl&ots=5JlFgyv–D&sig=lHq-MxCz6N4Saeu_vu6PuNgQPqM&hl=en&ei=pEgNTc2UA5ronQebxOmzDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=anti-catholicism%20in%20the%20united%20states&f=false

enotes.com/topic/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States

answers.com/topic/anti-catholicism-2

aoh61.com/history/bible/anti_catholic.htm

Even though the stories are chilling, and the rhetoric inflammatory, we do not revel in a persecution complex, like some others do. I am sure you can find some of the same anti-Catholic rhetoric in some of these sources that you can find in those II Nephi passages.

 

[Jerusha]

When we encounter prejudice, we generally tend to get into critical self-examination. amazon.com/Anti-Catholicism-America-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0824523628/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_2

When Mormons encounter prejudice, they tend to sit on their duffs and whine.

 

[flyonthewall]

When we encounter prejudice, we generally tend to get into critical self-examination. amazon.com/Anti-Catholicism-America-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0824523628/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_2

When Mormons encounter prejudice, they tend to sit on their duffs and whine.

Actually, when faced with anti-mormon prejudice, realizing it is based primarily on false information, we try to correct the information. More often than not, those using the false information are not open to correction.
Your last sentence is interesting. It is easy to say, but hardly supportable.
I could turn that statement around and state it about Catholics, but that would be dishonest as I don’t know what people think about off the board or in their private moments.

It seems you imply that anti-Catholicism is the last prejudice in america…have you noticed the anti-mormon ferver surrounding Prop 8? or even the presidential election?
There is enough anti- feelings about many groups out there, I see no reason to perpetuate any of it.

 

[Jerusha]

There is enough anti- feelings about many groups out there, I see no reason to perpetuate any of it.

Obviously, since you are one of the more moderate LDS posters here. Your behavior is exemplary.
I do not imply that anti-Catholicism is an overlooked form of bigotry in the US, I just pulled up a book which makes that case.
Mormonism comes from a very anti-Catholic culture. And there are still Mormons who are anti-Catholic.
I am sorry you perceive that very few Mormons get into whining when they encounter prejudice. I would not be surprised if you are not that experienced with the internet.
I think a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry comes from people who have not taken a good look at some of the negative aspects of Mormon culture that they live in their day-to-day lives. Some anti-Mormons are bigoted against many things.
And some Mormons are egregious bigots.
I hope you will excuse me for now, I am doing some research on anti-Catholic rhetoric common in New England in the 1820’s. Very interesting.

 

[Javl]

God had been given human attributes throughout the Bible, but you are welcome to your beliefs.

The attributes listed in the Bible are used to describe His actions so that we can understand them. The attributes you impose limit Him in His actions.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

God bless you and you are sincere and do not want to be part of any bigotry. Neither do we.

I look at the founder, the construct of whatever…and see how it compares to others. I must admit the language, behavior, thinking and beliefs of original Mormonism is as it is. You can’t compare it to early Catholic Christianity or the uniformity and moderation of faith. And there were heretics, schismatics, and apostates then as there are now.

There is a book out by Butler, ‘Lives of the Saints’…he covers many of them.

We also talked about the Temple going up in the Roman countryside…and it doesn’t look good to Mormonism if these original texts get out in the open.

And I am old enough to remember the anti-Catholic prejudice surrounding me from my childhood. I realized there was some great tragic and very vile split between the Catholics and Protestants, that many people died, families torn apart. All in the name of Christ, and that there was corruption in the Catholic clergy in parts of Europe.

If I advise you to get a Catholic catechism and then come back to us with it, you will see it through a Mormon prism just as the few Muslims able to get it do or try to explain Scripture to us.

But I trust in the goodness of God working in you, His Spirit working in you as was also stated in a catechism passage I shared with you earlier today.

May Advent be the time of great hope, peace and a new life in Christ…as we all seek this same blessing as well.

 

[Jerusha]

There is a book out by Butler, ‘Lives of the Saints’…he covers many of them.

books.google.com/books?id=RV0yNQAACAAJ&dq=butler+lives+of+the+saints&hl=en&ei=5H0NTcOPGMSonAeGsunTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ

That is a freebie, public domain. I already have it on my puter.

 

[Timothy17]

I have no need to discover what you present. I know there is only one Jesus Christ.

Agreed. There is only One Jesus Christ, and since He is One, then He could have deposited only one authentic teaching, one authentic doctrine, and given one authentic example. When we distort any of these, we begin to distort Him, hence my zeal and anger about claiming to see (or view) Him “in a different light,” as if this would not have grave and serious consequences. The consequences of casting Him in a different light follow :

Jews view Him differently than Christians.

Yes, and that “view” of Him is who they are thinking of when they mention Him. Clearly, that is not our view of Him, because Christians actually know Him. Now if someone were to slander or bear a false witness to the character or actions of your dearest friend, would you not at once take offence ? Would you not be angered that they are, in reality, portrarying a very different person than the person of the friend you know better than any ? Surely you would see clearly what was being done to your friend, and at once set out to set the record straight, and vindicate your friend’s honour and reputation. Those about you, seeing you zealously defend your friend, would note that bad men do not have friends such as that, nor do people feel compelled to zealously defend bad people, as you are defending your friend.

Muslims view him differently than Christians too.

Now my point is that their “view” of Him is cast by their religion, which portrays Him differently to them, and the consequences of that false portrayal (however slightly the Truth was altered) is manifestly obvious : they do not believe in Him or His Church as a result. Making even minor or slight changes to the Truth results in people seeing a different Jesus than the one His Church knows and preaches.

That does not mean they are referring to different people.

Again, returning to the analogy of your friend being slandered, what is the consequence of that slandering or false portrayal in the mind of the slanderer’s audience ? They will think they know your friend ; however, they do not know him. You know your friend, and those who believed the testimony about your friend from the mouth of a false witness will not actually know him for who he is. At such a point, would you accept one of the slanderer’s believers’ testimony about your friend - though it be a false testimony - if he were to say that he simply views your friend “in a different light” ? No. You would burn with zeal to repair your friend’s reputation and honour, and you would not permit or accept error or ignorance as any excuse to slander your friend, his reputation or his honour. You would at once demand the record and Truth be set straight and become known as a matter of simple justice to your friend. And your friend, later hearing of your noble defense of his good name, would love you for it, and say, Truly this is a good friend !

Pax,
Tim

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Timothy,

Not only slander but calumny…teaching falsehoods…I checked some recent threads…I will have to go back because someone came forward with the wording I saw and shared.

Remember - it came out of an LDS bookstore…and it was removed to my knowledge.

I also know the Mormons are building a grandiose temple in the outskirts of Rome. It would not be good if Italy came across the writings I did. There was a foreigner who moved to Italy…one person and she demanded that all the crucifixes in all the public buildings in Italy be taken down.

There is a new thread out about a ‘baptist minister embracing the Book of Mormon’…and there is a link given showing more of Joseph Smith’s character, the people who worked with him to start Mormonism, and all the disputes and occasional threats to blackmail each other by revealing things, that come up among Smith’s true successors of the Apostles…

Flyonthewall, you owe it to yourself to research original developments and writings of Mormonism as well as documented development of early Christianity…Do Mormons not study history as a discipline to faith???

 

[catholic-rcia]

I realize this is your belief, and that you also say it’s a mystery…meaning you don’t know.

You may want to re-examine this angle…what exactly did Satan say that was false?
God seemed to confirm part of what Satan stated:
22¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The lie that Satan put forth was “Ye shall not surely die”.

The reason Eve partook was also different than you assert:
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Dont the scriptures exhort one to seek wisdom?

If there was ever a lure put out there to become like God, it was God that put it there. Afterall it was Jesus that commanded us to be perfect like our Father in Heaven is perfect…and even prayed that we may become one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. To him that overcome will He grant sit with Him on His throne, even as Jesus sits with His father on the Father’s throne.
To become like God is not just a lure, but a commandment of God

This post by flyonwall is as far as I have read; I can’t help but respond to this now. Sorry if others have already responded and said the same thing, since we do have the same spirit. (Catholics)

Don’t the scriptures exhort one to seek wisdom?
Yes…Gods Wisdom not ours

Flyonwall, this is why having a sense of the Most Holy Trinity is so important.
There is only one who has Wisdom and this is God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Together as One they are Wisdom.

Adam and Eve were alive in this Wisdom, they were perfect human beings. They were living as created beings, living in Gods Grace without sin. Yes they could have had children, but with no pain, no death etc…But God also gave them free will as he did not create them to be puppets, rather each one unique and very, very special.

But for whatever reason there was this fallen angel who desired to have what Jesus has always had with His Father, for whatever reason this angel became jealous of Jesus. This angel comes to Adam and Eve to take them away from Jesus promising them their own wisdom, that they can have what Jesus has always had apart from His Grace.

Flyonthewall the tree of life in the garden is Jesus Himself. The food from the tree was freely given to them, it was life itself. You can not take this food less you die. No my Friend we receive this food from God in order to have eternal life. For it is better to receive than to give. One requires humility. for what can we give God that He does not already have with Jesus? No we must receive without any kind of payback as there is none. When you realize this you will understand the Cross, the Passion of Christ for you.

An adopted child receives a gift from His Father, from His Fathers heart. Then he runs out and does everything he can to try and prove his worthiness in the receiving of this gift. The Father sits in silence shaking His head knowing that this child has nothing that he can prove, that he is loved as he is. He lets him go into the very world that called him away. Out of the greatest love that has ever existed God glances at His Son Jesus, Jesus glances back at His father. The Son leaves, enters this world to bring you back home.

Thus we have the Crucifix front and center in each on of our Homes

There is no great test for us other than finding Jesus in our lives and allowing Him to carry us home. This is where heaven can be found on earth. You surrender to Him, you do His work. Your strength and wisdom comes from Him to you. You can not take this or earn this, this would be sin……no, it is freely given. You receive

 

[onenow1]

I realize this is your belief, and that you also say it’s a mystery…meaning you don’t know.

On the contrary it means I have faith, in the Teaching Church Christ instituted.

The big difference is you make God in your image, whereas the opposite is commanded.

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements – surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?

You may want to re-examine this angle…what exactly did Satan say that was false?
God seemed to confirm part of what Satan stated:
22¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The lie that Satan put forth was “Ye shall not surely die”.

It behoves all of us to remember being like is not an exactitude. This is what Satan thought when he told God he would not serve ! He the liar and the father of lies’ (John 8:44). Thought he was like unto God.

Dont the scriptures exhort one to seek wisdom?

Seeking God is wisdom !

To become like God is not just a lure, but a commandment of God

God’s direction was not to eat of the tree they simply did not obey{ PRIDE} is the #1 deadly sin, all sin, in fact is pride. To become like God the way you understand is a gross misinterpretation.

More Later
God Bless

 

[flyonthewall]

Obviously, since you are one of the more moderate LDS posters here. Your behavior is exemplary.
I do not imply that anti-Catholicism is an overlooked form of bigotry in the US, I just pulled up a book which makes that case.
Mormonism comes from a very anti-Catholic culture. And there are still Mormons who are anti-Catholic.

The anti-Catholic culture you refer to is simply Protestantism in America in the 1820s & 30s, and the “hellfire and brimstone” type of language used at the time. The LDS church was not founded on it but may have been surrounded by it.

I am sorry you perceive that very few Mormons get into whining when they encounter prejudice. I would not be surprised if you are not that experienced with the internet.

I have spent several years on the internet chat boards, but only recently here, and I have not seen what you describe as whining. Of course the definition of “whining” then has to be looked at as I have seen some critics label us as whiners simply because we tell them they are not stating our beliefs correctly.

I think a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry comes from people who have not taken a good look at some of the negative aspects of Mormon culture that they live in their day-to-day lives.

Are you saying anti-Mormon bigotry comes before they even look at the “negative” aspects of Mormon culture? And once anit-Mormon bigotry sees the “negative” aspects of our culture, then they turn up the heat? I’m not sure I follow what you saying here, but I feel I should offer you my other cheek.

Some anti-Mormons are bigoted against many things.
And some Mormons are egregious bigots.

Bigotry crosses all boundries by individuals. It is not institutionalized as some might want to claim.

I hope you will excuse me for now, I am doing some research on anti-Catholic rhetoric common in New England in the 1820’s. Very interesting.