LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[flyonthewall]

Todd
When I read the scriptures I see Trinity laced throughout…its everywhere. I also have a sense of the Trinity in my daily life. Its profound…huge!

Of course you see the Trinity, as I see the Godhead. We each see what we believe in the same scriptures.

If you have any questionms about this scripture below please ask. It also talks about Jesus creating satan, (all pricipalites and powers) of course he created him a good angel. He turned because he was jeoluse of Jesus. All sin comes out of this. Even our on weather we know this or not. To want what our Creator has as if we could have it as our own. Impossible. We only get to share in what Jesus offers. And it is so good enough for me.

I have no questions about this scripture, I simply understand it different than you do. It does not say Jesus created Satan, but I see why you come to that conclusion. We believe Satan and the “angels” existed before the heavens and the earth were created.

One question I do have is: what do you think it means for Jesus to be the firstborn of all creation?

Collosians 1:16-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell,
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

 

[Stephen168]

I once asked my Utah Priest if he ever read the book of Mormon, does he have one.
He pointed to a shelf that had about 10 copies given to him by Mormon missionaries…

We talked about the point you are making. Not only was an “other” gospel brought forth that appeared Christian, a completely other gospel is brought forth out of the original. Its like slight of hand. Do you know how many times I get asked “have you read the book of Mormon”
It has nothing to do with their theology. Its like here I am, see me? But in the end its not really that person.

Rich
www.utahmission.com

On a thread discussing, Who wrote the Book of Mormon, this idea was touched on. Someone rhetorically asked if Joseph Smith ever read the Book of Mormon.

 

[Timothy17]

When Jews refer to Jesus, is it the same one you talk about?

No.

Seeing as this is the crutch of your error and presumption, I will leave it to you to discover that.

Tell me, have you fabricated a different Jesus for every religion that talks about Him? .

No.

See Jesus in the Qu’ran, for example (and I assure you, I didn’t write the Qu’ran ; therefore, the Jesus presented in that book - “in a different light,” as you put it - cannot possibly be of my fabrication : it is, of course, the author’s fabrication).

Tim

 

[KathleenGee]

Both Muslims and Mormons create a new Jesus and make themselves as well the self appointed definers of Christianity…beliefs outside Judeo Christian culture.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Of course you see the Trinity, as I see the Godhead. We each see what we believe in the same scriptures.

I have no questions about this scripture, I simply understand it different than you do. It does not say Jesus created Satan, but I see why you come to that conclusion. We believe Satan and the “angels” existed before the heavens and the earth were created.

One question I do have is: what do you think it means for Jesus to be the firstborn of all creation?

Collosians 1:16-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell,
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

Flyonthewall

I prefer to listen to the one who wrote in his or her own diary as to what is written down in it. Rather than another source who has only read this diary.

Since the Catholic Church composed the Holy Bible this is just one important thing to think about

As to your question, and this will help me answer, what do you think it means?

 

[KathleenGee]

Through Jesus Christ mankind is reborn…one person at a time.

It is not just a matter of fancy passing…it is actualized in our reception of the Sacraments, the summit being the Eucharist…Christ among us. True God and True Man.

The Catholic approach to the reception of the Word of God is based on truth. We do not take bits and parts out to make a new belief and fracture other Christians.

The Word of God is intended to be lived out in its context as a whole…

Big difference here…big isn’t the right word…

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall
I prefer to listen to the one who wrote in his or her own diary as to what is written down in it. Rather than another source who has only read this diary.
Since the Catholic Church composed the Holy Bible this is just one important thing to think about

As to your question, and this will help me answer, what do you think it means?

How is it what I think affects your answer? Does not your answer stand on its own?
Tell me what the Catholic church says it means if that is what you want to do.

 

[flyonthewall]

No.

Seeing as this is the crutch of your error and presumption, I will leave it to you to discover that.

No.

See Jesus in the Qu’ran, for example (and I assure you, I didn’t write the Qu’ran ; therefore, the Jesus presented in that book - “in a different light,” as you put it - cannot possibly be of my fabrication : it is, of course, the author’s fabrication).

Tim

I have no need to discover what you present. I know there is only one Jesus Christ. Jews view Him differently than Christians. Muslims view him differently than Christians too. That does not mean they are referring to different people.Same person, different beliefs about that person. I understand this. I am just surprised how difficult this is for others to comprehend.

I take it this means when you talk about Bhudda, or Siddartha Gautama, or Vishnu, or Hare Krishna or any other divine personage of another faith, you create a different person than they believe in, because your belief about them does not match theirs.

 

[onenow1]

It is simply that when it mentions that the Father and Son are one, they are of one accord, purpose, testimony, authority etc…just like when the scriptures state:.

Indeed not quite that simple ! Just as water and ice are of the same substance so are God the Father and God the Son and Holy Spirit. A mystery. Job 38.

And besides, Jesus Christ, whom we see as God, stated that He too, has a God…God the Father.

This approach makes man equal to Jesus, and He nothing more then a philosopher ? And if I were unaware of the history of Solid Christianity,it would be and is quite a lure on the fishing pole of deceit,made to look like truth,appetizing but surly an ego trip of wishful thinking. So I find this approach reminiscent of Satan’s answer to Adam and Eve in the garden.> you will be like gods.

Peace

 

[catholic-rcia]

How is it what I think affects your answer? Does not your answer stand on its own?
Tell me what the Catholic church says it means if that is what you want to do.

My answer will be the Chritsian answer. The reason I asked what I asked was because a lot of what you post does not seem to be LDS belief. I was giving you an opportunity to find out what that is. That’s all.

Since Catholic Answers played a huge role in my own conversion I should let them answer your question flyonwall. As one taught the LDS faith very young I once thought of God as part of creation rather than Creation itself…those words inspired by Saint Augustine

Keep in mind that the following explantion is about the Jesus Christians beleive in, not the Jesus Mormons beleive in, just to keep this clear. So it does not matter if you disagree as we are speaking about two completely different types of god.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9501ntg.asp

“This text speaks of the activity of the Son prior to his appearance on earth. Paul particularly stresses the pre-existence of the Word, thanks to which all things were created by him; and this preexistence is based on the fact that he is God, co-eternal with the Father. The “beloved Son” of Colossians 1:13 is now described as “the first-born of all creation,” an expression which, given the context, must be taken in a comparative sense: that is, he is before all creation or, which is the same thing, he exists from all eternity.

It is very far from Paul’s thinking, therefore, to present the Son of God as the first among creatures-an error into which Arius fell through misinterpreting this text. Paul, on the contrary, describes Jesus Christ as the Creator in the widest and fullest sense of that word, which is proper to God alone. Thus, he calls him “the image of the invisible God”, to underline his complete identity of nature with God, concluding that “in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9);

 

[flyonthewall]

Indeed not quite that simple ! Just as water and ice are of the same substance so are God the Father and God the Son and Holy Spirit. A mystery. Job 38.

I realize this is your belief, and that you also say it’s a mystery…meaning you don’t know.

This approach makes man equal to Jesus, and He nothing more then a philosopher ? And if I were unaware of the history of Solid Christianity,it would be and is quite a lure on the fishing pole of deceit,made to look like truth,appetizing but surly an ego trip of wishful thinking. So I find this approach reminiscent of Satan’s answer to Adam and Eve in the garden.> you will be like gods.

You may want to re-examine this angle…what exactly did Satan say that was false?
God seemed to confirm part of what Satan stated:
22¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The lie that Satan put forth was “Ye shall not surely die”.

The reason Eve partook was also different than you assert:
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Dont the scriptures exhort one to seek wisdom?

If there was ever a lure put out there to become like God, it was God that put it there. Afterall it was Jesus that commanded us to be perfect like our Father in Heaven is perfect…and even prayed that we may become one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. To him that overcome will He grant sit with Him on His throne, even as Jesus sits with His father on the Father’s throne.
To become like God is not just a lure, but a commandment of God

 

[KathleenGee]

God alone is Wisdom.

About the Catholic Church has from its beginning the great gift of diversity. The initial identify of the original Christians were those in Jerusalem, the Jewish followers of Christ. Yet the Holy Spirit led Peter and other apostles out into the world, St. Peter to Rome, where his bones were discovered and identified under his altar.

In Ephesians 4: 3, the Apostles exhorted Christians to “maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” We do not need Joseph Smith.

The Mormons are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit with the new teachings of Joseph Smith.

The Catholic Church is the sole Church of Christ, which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it…This Church today is governed by the successor to Peter and by the bishops in communion with him…CC816.

CC817. In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostles strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church – for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body – here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy and schism – do not occur without sin.

CC818. "However, one cannot charge with sin of the separation those who are at present are born into these communities that resulted from such separation and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

We note here that the Church does not recognize Mormon baptism.

Christ told His apostles, annoyed with those calling out to Christ, but not having the correct ideas of Christ, instructed them that whoever calls on Christ is with them.

1. "furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity; with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities (devoid of most of the 7 sacraments) as means of salvation whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to Him, and are in themselves called to Catholic unity.

And so I personally believe that there is some aspect where the Mormons who call on Christ receive of Him and bear His fruits.

 

[KathleenGee]

The idea of Mormon apostasy is that essentially, the Catholic Church is the Great Apostasy.

Apostasy comes under the category of faith, one of the there cardinal virtues.

The First Commandment is "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

It is written: “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only you shall serve.”

So we are under the utmost regard of God and His law not to have idols be they of creation or even of ourselves.

CC2086. "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say ‘God’ we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent…Who would not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: “I am the Lord.’”

We believe that Jesus Christ is God and through Him, Incarnate Word, the physical world was made. There is no other need for man made gods.

Jesus Christ is all knowing. The Catholic Church represents the life and teachings of Christ proven in their constancy of teaching for the past 2,000 years.

This is for JeanMichael: CC2088: The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

Joseph Smith’s language in describing the Roman Church as the great abomination…a whore,…the Protestants her whore daughters…this is vile language. It is sinful language.

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assenet to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.’

Joseph Smith repudiated the entire Christian faith.

Joseph Smith is the Apostate. He is leading in spirit people away from Christ to this day.

 

[flyonthewall]

Joseph Smith’s language in describing the Roman Church as the great abomination…a whore,…the Protestants her whore daughters…this is vile language. It is sinful language.

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assenet to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.’

Joseph Smith repudiated the entire Christian faith.

Joseph Smith is the Apostate. He is leading in spirit people away from Christ to this day.

Lets have the source of your assertion. You keep stating he said this, but never brought forth any statement to prove it. Either cite your source or cease your assertion.

 

[KathleenGee]

I could not find the book…I called SLC to the LDS and reported what I had read and how offensive it was. I gave the location of the book to the store.

I went back two weeks later and it was pulled from the shelf.

However, Jim Dandy and others here have drawn on the very same materials from that era…and if I recall, they could be here on this thread.

So because I cannot verify the book title, does not invalidate my experience…or my good intention to grow in knowledge of your faith…

To use the point that I can’t point to the actual book title, can’t be used to invalidate my experience or the countless references to such materials…there was a Pratt…and in these times Bruce McConkie.

Such use of language and condemnation did not exist in the beginning of the Catholic Church. The whole thrust was Jesus Christ and the salvation of all people. You can’t say Christianity began informally but now formally, meaning an organized human institution 2000 years later.

I find it very devious that the Mormon Church is using its young people to deny any such beliefs or materials existed. The Catholic Catechism can honestly point to members of its own church causing the divisions of disunity and sin in the Church.

Christ would never start His church at the wrong time. Here you have to study Judaism and see where it was – at the point of collapse – when Christ came to this world…

 

[Jerusha]

II Nephi 28

28:11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
28:12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted; and their churches are lifted up; because of pride, they are puffed up.
28:13 They rob the poor, because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor, because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek, and the poor in heart; because of their pride, they are puffed up.
28:14 They wear stiff necks, and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray, save it be a few, which are humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err, because they are taught by the precepts of men.
28:15 O the wise and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in pride of their hearts, and all they that preach false doctrines, and all they that commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord; wo, wo, wo be unto them saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

28:16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of nought, and revile against that which is good, and say that it is no worth: for the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity, they shall perish.
28:17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations, they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.
28:18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth; and great must be the fall thereof:
28:19 for the kingdom of the Devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the Devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger and perish:
28:20 for behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good;
28:21 and others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say, All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well; and thus the Devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

There is more. However, I disagree that JS wrote this. Jockers et al indicate that Sidney Rigdon may have written this. People back home, whose ancestors had met JS, do not believe that JS could have written the BoM. He lacked a bit in the literacy dept.

I find it interesting that JS had nothing but praise for the local Catholic priest, Fr. John Alleman. He may have been the only priest JS had actually ever met.

 

[Jerusha]

Kathleen, you may be thinking of Bruce McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” which has been repudiated by the LDS church. There was a lot of offensive stuff in it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jerusha…

McConkie is the one I read online…and a Mormon president made a change in position regarding the Catholic Church…so there has been a softening…

 

[KathleenGee]

What is troubling me now is the denial coming from Mormons about their beliefs and their history of changing beliefs in history vs the faith of Christianity.

A woman in our area had an article about her…she was raised in a Protestant anti-Catholic family. She wanted to go back to the beginning of Christianity to study ‘authentic’ beliefs. She got hold of ancient catechetical teachings, and embraced them.

Later she came across a modern Catholic Catechism which I reference here on CAF. She was amazed at how much ancient catechetical teachings are the same teachings in the modern Catholic catechism.

Mormonism came out of the anti-Catholic movements within Christianity and like the others, refuses to acknowledge any verifiable history of true Christianity and its one institution, the Catholic Church…because it is simply Catholic.

 

[Jerusha]

Not from any ethical concern. Only because of pressure and offended Catholics.