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DavidKays
Guest
If I can put my 2 cents worth in I will like to say that many forget about the 70 in the Gospel of St.Luke that were sent out as were the 12 done earlier. The 70 are also Apostles. Yes there were the 12 which composes the Original 12 and there were the other 70 as well. These 70 are called Apostles also in the Orthodox Church. Listen God did not send out only 12 but many more. We know of St.Paul and St.Barnabus and these are called apostles too. The Original 12 are the ones we call within the Apostolic College however God has commissioned many more to be apostles as well. These do not have the same authority as the 12 but they do have apostolic orders. That been said I will like to mention that the Mormons interpretation of the Great Apostasy cannot be taken seriously because their tradition has no foundation to give it credance. The Great Apostasy that St.Paul is referring to has no relation to the Jews or to Early Christianity. If I can recall does the Mormons believe that it is the Church that will be involve. If so then yes they are right but it is their timeline that it is wrong. If this Apostasy is only the Jews then they really have it wrong. The Great Apostasy will be the falling away of the majority of the Catholic Church. We may be witnessing that now. Since the majority of Catholics are in the West and it is the West that is faltering away, I mean the Christians within it, then the Great Apostasy may refer to this generation. The East cannot be regarded to belong to this group because the Eastern Christians and the Catholics who live in the East have not become like the West and have not entered into a time when they will be like the West. Perhaps communism has done us a favour for preserving that part of the world from been like the West. Perhaps God permitted and allowed this necessary evil ( communism ) in the East to preserve it from been contaminated as the West is now. Had the East been democratic from 1917 on we probably be entering the worst crisis ever to hit this planet. Had the East been democratic from 1917 on I believe the conditions for the Second Coming would be probable and certain. But God preserved the East from what is happening now in the West and God will then have a help for the West when the West will enter into Apostasy. It is this which I believe is what St.Paul refers to when he says the Great Apostasy will happen. The West through its undisclipline democracy moves toward a Great Apostasy. Not as great as preceding before the Second Coming but coming pretty close to. Had God not preserved the East then forget it, the Second Coming is sooner than you expect. But by preserving the East God has given us more time. While it will be bad for the West, God will help His people and out of this Great Apostasy will emerge His Church again in the West after much suffering and tribulation. In the end ( that is after the Great Apostasy ) God will have His Church in the West gloriously raised again so that both East and West will be together before the Final End.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Hi David,
Yes in some ways I agree with you that we are in some semblance of the Great Apostasy…and that we can loosely call others accompanying the Apostles as one themselves. Modern day Fr Corapi has apostolic witness in his preaching.
The Book of Hebrews, that took 200 years for the Church to finally decide it was divinely inspired writings, referred to Christ Himself as an apostle. And that there were many followers/disciples of Christ present at Pentecost in the Upper Room.
But Jesus specifically chose 12 apostles, and noted that one would betray Him, and that this apostle’s place had to be replaced by Matthias…through a casting of lots as none of the apostles had such a profound sense that they were chosen…and thus put the casting in the work of Providence through the Holy Spirit.
The apostles could have left that open spot through Judas be, but they knew 12 was specified by Our Lord. Twelve also represents the 12 tribes of Israel that all fulfilled their being in bringing forth the Messiah.
Yes in some ways I agree with you that we are in some semblance of the Great Apostasy…and that we can loosely call others accompanying the Apostles as one themselves. Modern day Fr Corapi has apostolic witness in his preaching.
The Book of Hebrews, that took 200 years for the Church to finally decide it was divinely inspired writings, referred to Christ Himself as an apostle. And that there were many followers/disciples of Christ present at Pentecost in the Upper Room.
But Jesus specifically chose 12 apostles, and noted that one would betray Him, and that this apostle’s place had to be replaced by Matthias…through a casting of lots as none of the apostles had such a profound sense that they were chosen…and thus put the casting in the work of Providence through the Holy Spirit.
The apostles could have left that open spot through Judas be, but they knew 12 was specified by Our Lord. Twelve also represents the 12 tribes of Israel that all fulfilled their being in bringing forth the Messiah.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Hosemonkey,
The ‘bark of Peter’ has certainly been an extension of God Himself in constancy by providing us the true faith and all the nurturing necessary to be in the still point of God…and not be tossed about…there are plenty of anchors within our faith to keep our grasp firm with Him.
The other point is that we have been given all that we need from the Apostles…all the essentials – worship and the other sacraments, preaching, understanding Sacred Scripture in its whole context through the Holy Spirit…and that we come to know Jesus so deeply in mystery…that we ‘know’ each other in Him…John Paul II spoke of this…and we knew him in the Lord.
When people turn to the Eucharist, and continue to grow in Him, one is brought deeper into the Catholic faith and in time everything makes sense.
The ‘bark of Peter’ has certainly been an extension of God Himself in constancy by providing us the true faith and all the nurturing necessary to be in the still point of God…and not be tossed about…there are plenty of anchors within our faith to keep our grasp firm with Him.
The other point is that we have been given all that we need from the Apostles…all the essentials – worship and the other sacraments, preaching, understanding Sacred Scripture in its whole context through the Holy Spirit…and that we come to know Jesus so deeply in mystery…that we ‘know’ each other in Him…John Paul II spoke of this…and we knew him in the Lord.
When people turn to the Eucharist, and continue to grow in Him, one is brought deeper into the Catholic faith and in time everything makes sense.
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DavidKays
Guest
Yes Kathleen you are correct. The 12 Apostles or as I would say the 12 " Chief " Apostles are to resemble the 12 tribes of old Isreal. The Church been the new Israel will have its 12 " Tribes " as well. That is an excellent point you have made. I have often wonder what prompted Judas to betray Jesus. I believe in some way Judas tried to coexed Jesus to reveal Himself as the Messiah to the Pharisees. Knowing Jesus as he did why not put Jesus into the hands of the Pharisees so that He can prove Himself to be the Messiah. But Jesus did not play into Judas’ bluff. I believe Judas tried to forced the issue on Jesus and was completely caught off guard when Jesus is willing to die. Astonished that Jesus was willing to die he became frightened and afraid. This will explain why he decided to kill himself. For if Judas wanted Jesus dead in the first place as so many have taught us then why will he then kill himself. It does not make sense. However if Judas wanted Jesus to reveal Himself by forcing the issue on Jesus to do so then it will explain why he then got frightened and then to his ultimate suicide. Jesus warned him many times. He gave Judas the opportunity to reflect on this. Jesus warnings were not a condemnation but to help Judas to understand not to do this. Did not Jesus also severely rubuked His Peter. Jesus offered to Judas an opportunuity to reflect what he was planning to do. This to give Judas a chance to reflect on it and to change his mind. I believe honestly that the pharisees will have crucified Jesus even if Judas choose not to hand Him over. But Judas wanted to exposed his Jesus as the Messiah and to force the issue once and for all. But he was suprised that Jesus is willing to die. Afraid and bewildered he cannot accept this and he goes and hangs himself. Had he listened to the words of His Master and unlike Peter who after his own denials came back to the Lord when he remembered what words Jesus spoke of him, Judas will still have found himself within the Apostolic College. Kathleen just a note of what I said earlier. When I said the Great Apostasy will be Catholics falling away I do not mean all Catholics but those who live in the West. Catholics who live in Africa, or the East, or in Asia will be largely unaffected. Even other Christian groups who are living in the West will have many of their people added to those who have fallen away. Yet even if there is a large amount who have fallen away as they say in the scriptures there is a small core of great witnesses remaining to serve the Lord.
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pablope
Guest
So, when did Peter, James and John become angels? Angels are created beings and are very different from humans who have gone on to Heaven.
So, did the Peter, James and John physically came or where they s spirits when they supposedly conferred to JS and OC?
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pablope
Guest
When Paul referred to himself as an apostle, he meant it not as a member of the 12, but as one sent to the Gentiles, which was what I was trying to get across.
The original 12 A and prophets had a specific purpose, once their mission from the Lord was fulfilled, they were not needed. As for the prophets, God called another one if he needed another task.
Once the task of the original 12 A was fulfilled, which was to spread the Gospel and be the witness to Christ, their role was fulfilled. But they understood Jesus’s words to them, and they left successors, the bishops to tend the flock, the Church, so that what they had begun would not flounder.
Stephen168
New member
I think you mirror the basic Mormon explanation I get from Mormon literature about the Great Apostasy. Mixing together the politics, religion,and social trends you dis agree with (not the fact they are wrong) and calling it evil. Then declaring the newly defined evil of those ‘others’ the Great Apostasy. A very nebulous idea.
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DavidKays
Guest
Not really Stephen. Open your mind to what is around you. I am not making this up. I use alot of sources specifically Fr.John Corapi. His Holiness John Paul II and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Open your mind to what is around you. The anti-christ is around you. It is the spirit of the anti-christ that is " devouring " our children. One aspect of the sprit of the anti-christ is the prevailing attitudes towards comercialism and materialism which incidentily is what Pope Benedict XVI has talked about. You are misunderstanding the points of what I have written. My points if seen through open mindness sees tremondous hope, lots of hope. We are not alone but we have each other. One of the reasons why the Eastern Church has immigrated to the West is to give hope to the millions of Catholics who will be effected by this Apostasy. My brother we the Eastern Church both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox will be at the aid and will be at the help of our Catholic brothers when the situation has enfold before our very eyes into the suffering and tribulation our Blessed Virgin Mary has warned us about. We are here brother for you. Try to get away from what the mormons have said. I was trying to declare them wrong. Ok. I will not fix fences with the Catholics. I was declaring these truths through Catholic sources. That is all. Please be more open minded towards those who are supportive of the Catholic Church yet are not Roman Catholic themselves.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Flyonthewall, the Apostles are the foundation of the Church through Jesus Christ.
If they needed to come back here…afterall, their witness is still alive today in Scripture and their impact on how we are formed, they would come back as they were.
Christ returned after the Resurrection. When a person you know very well, have been with for 3 years, is gone over the weekend, you still recognize him.
Apparently, after Christ rose from the dead, Mary Magdalene and the Apostles at first did not recognize Him. He was still in His resurrected state…but Thomas could put his fingers into the Lord’s wounds…but the fact is, Jesus did not return as an angel or a spirit, but came back in His flesh and blood, but transformed to great beauty of the Resurrection – I assume he was made more beautiful through His death and resurrection.
But He did come back physically changed…but not His nature as a Man. Jesus is True God and He is True Man.
And the Apostles are eye witness to Jesus and this event of the Resurrection, and the founders of various churches in their times…this they had done as men, not angels.
The apostles remained men. That was the charism or nature that Christ chose to work through in establishing His church, not angels.
If you read what I drew from the passages of New Advent, the understanding of the Apostles bears witness to academic and scholarly reflection. To say that Joseph Smith had a visitation by an unknown angel who bore a totally different message and drew on unverifiable community of Jews living outside of Salvation History in the United States…all of this is dubious, and the Mormons really come across as their founders making up things. Mormons prefer to believe iin myths rather than universal disciplines to discern truth that pass on true events through the oral tradition drawn from a verifiable culture of people, with a consistency of anthropology still existing today. Jewish culture is unique and has its own charism. There are no Jewish culture artifacts in America.
And this is why Christ chose 12 apostles to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
Mormonism’s apostles are outside the 12.
It is interesting that Christ chose Judas Iscariot…like there is always one person in any group who is the wild card.
And 12 also represents the symbol both of perfection and the Church and Mary, the perfect Christian. There is no place for Mary and the effect of feminine spirituality in Mormonism either. Without Mary, we would not have Christ as True Man…unless you also want to change who Christ is to follow myths. I am not intending to be uncharitable…but I am professing truth of Who Christ is and Who He is to us and to you.
So in Mormonism, you have a complete lapse of tradition from the Jewish culture and faith to Christianity it self. Mormonism rejects Christianity, claiming only an vague few were enduring as true Christians for 1800 years…bringing forth unverifiable claims. There is a most serious and grave lapse of the role of Mary, the perfection of all Christianity.
Mormonism is essentially all male oriented, of the flesh, of celestial ongoing copulation as a god, rather than the fulfillment of both man and woman realized and completed in the Lord in heaven.
If they needed to come back here…afterall, their witness is still alive today in Scripture and their impact on how we are formed, they would come back as they were.
Christ returned after the Resurrection. When a person you know very well, have been with for 3 years, is gone over the weekend, you still recognize him.
Apparently, after Christ rose from the dead, Mary Magdalene and the Apostles at first did not recognize Him. He was still in His resurrected state…but Thomas could put his fingers into the Lord’s wounds…but the fact is, Jesus did not return as an angel or a spirit, but came back in His flesh and blood, but transformed to great beauty of the Resurrection – I assume he was made more beautiful through His death and resurrection.
But He did come back physically changed…but not His nature as a Man. Jesus is True God and He is True Man.
And the Apostles are eye witness to Jesus and this event of the Resurrection, and the founders of various churches in their times…this they had done as men, not angels.
The apostles remained men. That was the charism or nature that Christ chose to work through in establishing His church, not angels.
If you read what I drew from the passages of New Advent, the understanding of the Apostles bears witness to academic and scholarly reflection. To say that Joseph Smith had a visitation by an unknown angel who bore a totally different message and drew on unverifiable community of Jews living outside of Salvation History in the United States…all of this is dubious, and the Mormons really come across as their founders making up things. Mormons prefer to believe iin myths rather than universal disciplines to discern truth that pass on true events through the oral tradition drawn from a verifiable culture of people, with a consistency of anthropology still existing today. Jewish culture is unique and has its own charism. There are no Jewish culture artifacts in America.
And this is why Christ chose 12 apostles to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
Mormonism’s apostles are outside the 12.
It is interesting that Christ chose Judas Iscariot…like there is always one person in any group who is the wild card.
And 12 also represents the symbol both of perfection and the Church and Mary, the perfect Christian. There is no place for Mary and the effect of feminine spirituality in Mormonism either. Without Mary, we would not have Christ as True Man…unless you also want to change who Christ is to follow myths. I am not intending to be uncharitable…but I am professing truth of Who Christ is and Who He is to us and to you.
So in Mormonism, you have a complete lapse of tradition from the Jewish culture and faith to Christianity it self. Mormonism rejects Christianity, claiming only an vague few were enduring as true Christians for 1800 years…bringing forth unverifiable claims. There is a most serious and grave lapse of the role of Mary, the perfection of all Christianity.
Mormonism is essentially all male oriented, of the flesh, of celestial ongoing copulation as a god, rather than the fulfillment of both man and woman realized and completed in the Lord in heaven.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Just wondering what magical immunity you believe some people to have lack or loss of faith?
Communism brought on the most secular way of living/thinking there is. Absolute, state enforced, Godless society. You’re blind, or maybe wishful thinking, to believe it has caused something “good”. If anything, it has made people more susceptible to cults, such as Mormonism.
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KathleenGee
Guest
About the apostles coming back as angels…
The Apostles have their meaning from Christ.
Christ came back as true God and true Man.
The apostles would follow suit, and if they were to appear to anyone…if that were even necessary as they already have their presence available to us through Scripture and tradition…
The apostles would follow Christ and come back as men.
The Apostles have their meaning from Christ.
Christ came back as true God and true Man.
The apostles would follow suit, and if they were to appear to anyone…if that were even necessary as they already have their presence available to us through Scripture and tradition…
The apostles would follow Christ and come back as men.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Getting close to wrapping up this thread folks.
Time for any ‘concluding remarks’.
Time for any ‘concluding remarks’.
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Javl
Guest
DavidKays
Hello David and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You are correct in your assessment and remarks up to a point. I suggest that you study your Biblical Commentary and Concordance and study the early Church Fathers in regards to the Apostles. In actuality the 70 sent out were disciples with a commission. Shalom haMeshiach.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Hello David and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You are correct in your assessment and remarks up to a point. I suggest that you study your Biblical Commentary and Concordance and study the early Church Fathers in regards to the Apostles. In actuality the 70 sent out were disciples with a commission. Shalom haMeshiach.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Stephen168
New member
You start with an ad hominem argument: if I ‘opened my mind’ I would agree with you. You remind me of the Mormons who claim that if I read the Book of Mormon with a ‘pure heart’ I would know it is true.
In your first two posts you, like Mormons, mixed politics, religion,and social trends you disagree with, called it evil. Then declaring the newly defined evil of those ‘others’ the Great Apostasy.
My county, state, and national government is NOT run by the Catholic Church; therefore if the government legalizes behavior you disagree with, it was not the Catholic Church going into Apostasy. Apostasy is a total rejection of your beliefs; like when Joseph Smith rejected the Christian believe in the triune God in 1844. The Canadian government legalizing same-sex marriage is not the Catholic Church rejecting its Apostolic beliefs and the presents of the Greek Orthodox Church in Canada did not stop it.
Yes, I think basically we are on the same side of the argument and I appreciate your statement about the eastern view of who was an apostle.
Now if you had an open mind and pure heart you would completely agree with me.
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Javl
Guest
It seems that you and the LDS Church disagree with all the Christian Scholars and Theologians. Again I recommend that you read a Biblical Concordance, a Biblical Commentary, and study the Early Church Fathers.
Call your twelve whatever you want, or will, and quote all the scripture you wish, the twelve are not replacement Apostles for the Christian Church. The Apostolate ended
with the death of the last Apostle and cannot nor will not be reinstituted. The action by the LDS is fraudulent and contra-Biblical and cannot be proved otherwise.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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pablope
Guest
Concluding Remarks…as per our moderator…
Our Mormon brethen need a lot of our prayers, my fellow catholics…and I say this in all charity and love…that they will come and see the light of Christ’s truth.
I will also apologize to our Mormon friends who posted here if I offended you in any way.
Our Mormon brethen need a lot of our prayers, my fellow catholics…and I say this in all charity and love…that they will come and see the light of Christ’s truth.
I will also apologize to our Mormon friends who posted here if I offended you in any way.
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DavidKays
Guest
Rebecca please be more open minded towards what God is doing. Be careful in your choice of words. I do not wish to fix fences with Catholics. If you want to know it is the Catholics who need to wake up to what is going around them. Communism was forced on the Russians by godless men Rebecca. It was political. The society was not godless. It was the politicians. They were trying to force their godless ideals and ways towards the Orthodox. Please you are a Catholic and really the Catholic Church knows nothing about Orthodoxy and the Russian Orthodox Church. I am Greek Orthodox Rebecca and I know more about my own than any Catholic. So please understand us before you make statements like you do. His Holiness John Paul II wrote about communism when he said it was permitted by God as a necessary evil to prevent something worse. If I am blind Rebecca then you may as well call your own Pope blind to for it was he who made that statement. So what do you think? Are we both blind? Read your Popes and you will be more informed. The situation in the West is different. Whereas it was the governmenst of the East which imposes its will among the faithful here in the West it is the laypeople who are imposing that type of behaviour towards the Church. The situation is worse for us in the West. I will tell you that there is over 120 million Russian Orthodox in Russia and over 2 million Catholics. The Church has been gloriously resurrected and as the late Fulton Sheen has said in one of his programs we will see Holy Russia again. Please Rebecca I do not wish to fix fences with you. You are a Catholic. I am a Orthodox. We the Orthodox are grateful to the millions of Catholics who have responded to the Holy Mother’s requests for prayers. The Holy Mother did this so that Her Children in Russia may not be exterminated. Your sacrifices are the reason why we have Holy Russia back. The Pope believes the situation in the world is still unfinished. He believes democracy when it is undiscliplined will ultimately lead it to its destruction. Note he said democracy and not the Church. However many Catholics have left the Church to follow the undiscliplined ways of democracy. This is what we are into. We are here to help you. When the situation in the West explodes as it naturally will it will be the Christians from the East especially those who live in the East that will be our greatest comfort.
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DavidKays
Guest
Forget it Stephen. I do not pick fences with Catholics.You start with an ad hominem argument: if I ‘opened my mind’ I would agree with you. You remind me of the Mormons who claim that if I read the Book of Mormon with a ‘pure heart’ I would know it is true.
In your first two posts you, like Mormons, mixed politics, religion,and social trends you disagree with, called it evil. Then declaring the newly defined evil of those ‘others’ the Great Apostasy.
My county, state, and national government is NOT run by the Catholic Church; therefore if the government legalizes behavior you disagree with, it was not the Catholic Church going into Apostasy. Apostasy is a total rejection of your beliefs; like when Joseph Smith rejected the Christian believe in the triune God in 1844. The Canadian government legalizing same-sex marriage is not the Catholic Church rejecting its Apostolic beliefs and the presents of the Greek Orthodox Church in Canada did not stop it.
Yes, I think basically we are on the same side of the argument and I appreciate your statement about the eastern view of who was an apostle.
Now if you had an open mind and pure heart you would completely agree with me.
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DavidKays
Guest
I will like to say to my Catholic brothers sand sisters that I sense you think I accept mormon teachings. I do not. I do not get involved with mormon teachings at all. I believe that mormons and the jehovah witnesses and the sevenday adventists or whatever groups are out there are heretical in their teachings. I do not find their teachings for of any good use at all. As Catholics and Orthodox we do get involve with them. I really think it is better to leave them alone. What we need to do is become better Catholics or better Orthodox. Learn your faith more and I recommend Fr.John Corapi and Bishop Fulton Sheen as guides. Become Catholic and you Orthodox, become Orthodox. In this way as you are been trained more into your Faith you can become better witnesses for God in the world. I suppose God will eventually help these other groups to see better someday and then when they are able to see better they will come back home to the Catholic Church. Pray the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy constantly for them and offer up the Novena of the Divine Mercy on behalf of them as well. His Holiness John Paul II will be beatified on May 1st, 2011 which is incidently Divine Marcy Sunday. Let us offer a gift to the late Holy Father and offer the Divine Mercy prayers to our Lord Jesus for these groups while he is been Beautified. Pope John Paul II was and still is a great Saint!
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