LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

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flyonthewall said:
I don’t believe the Apostles failed. They worked hard in the ministry of Christ and they established congregations throughout the area. The “failure” would not be on the part of the Apostles.
I point to the churches or congregations that strayed as examples of leadership not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Or are you saying the Holy Ghost guided them into straying?

Not only do I live in Utah, but Utah county. I have lived most of my life outside of Utah and the last 10yrs in Utah, and can tell you that your idea of what happens is skewed and inaccurate.
The church has nothing in place and no need for demands of why someone missed church.

Because Jesus Christ said it.

So the Galatians were guided by the Holy Spirit to depart from the gospel of Christ? The Galatians have made Jesus a liar and failure…is that what you saying?

Martin Luther wasn’t the only person to come to the conclusion something was not right.

Acts 1:11, 2 Peter 3:10, Zechariah 14:9, Revelation 11:15 just to name a few.

Okay, then tell me the names of the Apostles during the 2nd century. Tell me the names of the apostles that were in attendance at the council of Nicea. Who was the Apostle that replaced Peter? James? John?
It is your claim, as I understand it, that there was Apostolic succession…sans apostles.
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For Peter, here is the partial list:

1.St. Peter (32-67)
2.St. Linus (67-76)
3.St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4.St. Clement I (88-97)
5.St. Evaristus (97-105)
6.St. Alexander I (105-115)
7.St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
8.St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9.St. Hyginus (136-140)
10.St. Pius I (140-155)
11.St. Anicetus (155-166)
12.St. Soter (166-175)
13.St. Eleutherius (175-189

to continue…newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
 
pablope said:
Saying it and proving it are two different things. What is the combination of things? Cite and present the proof for all to see, not Biblical verses taken out of context, and a statement from your D and C, not just a mere statement from JS. If you claim it was prophesied in the Bible, then there should be an independent document, study, historical account that supports or gives credence to the claim and prophesy.
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You want me to convnice you…I cannot. I have presented evidence. I have cited biblical scripture which you say I take out of context…I say you take them out of context.
So here we are…You want me to prove you wrong…it’s not going to happen.
Prove to me without using Catholic sources that Catholicism is true. Can’t be done.
 
pablope said:
For Peter, here is the partial list:

1.St. Peter (32-67)
2.St. Linus (67-76)
3.St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4.St. Clement I (88-97)
5.St. Evaristus (97-105)
6.St. Alexander I (105-115)
7.St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
8.St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9.St. Hyginus (136-140)
10.St. Pius I (140-155)
11.St. Anicetus (155-166)
12.St. Soter (166-175)
13.St. Eleutherius (175-189

to continue…newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
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I followed the link and the only Apostle in there is Peter. This is a list of Popes.
This should be real easy you…name the Apostles, not Popes.
 
The evidence is this. Christ established His Church. If you want historical evidence of how His Church is run and who leads it, look to first the NT, particularly Acts. Second, look to how it has continued through the ages. Not only in leadership but in performing its mission of bringing people to Jesus Christ, their Salvation.

To point to something that arose in the 19th century requires ignoring 2000 years of saving work, entirely. I have no idea why anyone would accept such a proposition of such a weak and ineffective god who left the world in darkness, as orphans, when He promised a gift, an Advocate, in the Holy Spirit.

It is a devilish thing that Mormons propose. May God have mercy on their souls.
 
Mormonism literally ignores history and makes another Christ and a new story.

All the facts in the world will do nothing for those who refuse to acknowledge our history but believe in that which never happened…the claims of Joseph Smith and his followers.
 
flyonthewall said:
You want me to convnice you…I cannot. I have presented evidence. I have cited biblical scripture which you say I take out of context…I say you take them out of context.
So here we are…You want me to prove you wrong…it’s not going to happen.
Prove to me without using Catholic sources that Catholicism is true. Can’t be done.
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I can name at least two that tried to prove catholicity as false but failed, and were in fact converted and are now catholics because they found the truth.

Because you have not proof whatsoever, Fly, as simple as that.
 
flyonthewall said:
I followed the link and the only Apostle in there is Peter. This is a list of Popes.
This should be real easy you…name the Apostles, not Popes.
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And there is no name of any of the LDS apostles either, isn’t it? You cannot trace any lineage of the LDS apostles to any of the original 12.
 
All the references in the New Testament, particularly the references Mormons give as ‘proof’ point to the attitude of the soul, not the apostolic church.

St. Irenaeus already pointed out the erroneous letters and teachings and why. He pretty much covered them all considering he understood human nature and all its inclinations.

I wish Joseph Smith knew his.

I wish Mormon men would stop using Christianity to create their own man made religion.

I hope that those who have left the Mormon belief system don’t have their own inclination to faith be destroyed by it, but turn to hope and search for the One, True God. Certainly there are those in our church who have had their inner person destroyed by scandal and abuse.

We need to pray and do penance for those who have suffered errors or abuse. I have increased my prayers for the Mormon people that they listen to the voice of their conscience, and follow it. The Archbishop of my diocese has named certain ember days to help in the healing of the abuse victims, and it does work.
 
I also am disturbed by those in the Mormon church denying they taught this or that, and are trying to cover up all of it. That is dishonest.

Cover up and denial show they were not standing on the solid Truth of Jesus Christ.

Sooner or later the Catholic Church does reveal darkness within its own…but the Catholic Church is self-reforming.

I also want to give credit to those in Mormonism who do not want to hold other people as apostate, but just to view others as holding on to a different understanding of Christ.
 
flyonthewall said:
The Apostasy came about with a combination of things, it was not dependent on the loss of the priesthood, as is evidenced by the Galatians. The loss of the priesthood was the final straw. It started with errors creeping in and after the loss of the priesthood, there was no turning back.
The Apostles did all they could. They were sent out to preach the Gospel, they were dispersed. They needed to assemble together to select a replacement, and I beleive the opportunity just did not present itself.
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You forget that the Head of the Church is Christ. It is not at all dependant upon man for its survival. That is the beauty of being Catholic. We have an all powerful leader who remains with his Church and sends the Holy Spirit to guide it.
 
Yes, it is Christ that we worship, we center our lives on Christ. People in one parish are all on different levels with as many opinions about everything.

But when we approach the Word of God or Christ present in the Sacraments…we are separate facing the Almighty, and ask Him to become one with us, we who are unworthy of Him.
 
flyonthewall said:
I followed the link and the only Apostle in there is Peter. This is a list of Popes.
This should be real easy you…name the Apostles, not Popes.
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Fly:

The Popes ( who are Bishops ) are the rightful successors of the Apostles, by the given authority of Jesus. Mathias, appointed by the Holy Spirit to replace Judas, and Paul who was appointed by Jesus, are the only others listed. The position and title of Apostles ceased to exist with their deaths. There is no scriptural support for any continuation of additional Apostles, therefore there is no need for them.

Might I ask if you know what an Apostle is and what the difference is between an Apostle and disciple?

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Furthermore,

What are the actual teachings of the early Church that are apostate???

The Eucharist?..the whole and entire context of Scripture as the Word of God? The Apostles Creed???

The Book of Mormon is a completely different story that did not arrive until 1800 years later, and called on a non-existent Jewish tribe to make verify its beliefs.

When I look at the beginnings of Mormonism, its premise is that all Christian beliefs are an abomination, and that men can have many wives, and that heaven consists of creating new spirit children…it is based on condemning Christianity and focuses primarily on the essence of perpetual and eternal conjugal relations.

Catholicism revolves around the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ Who is the only righteous one. The disciplines Church leaders took was to ensure we have the true teachings of Christ through the Apostles, and to protect the faithful from confusion and apostasy.
 
In addition to my post #1055 ( above ), I would like to add that the Apostles were a unique elite group that formed an Apostolate. Besides their missionary aspect, their “raison d’etre” was to witness Jesus’ resurrection and to authenticate the traditions of Jesus. The majority of their work was done in Jerusalem. Except for Simon Peter, Paul, and John, there is no evidence scripturally that they ever left Jerusalem ( although tradition states otherwise ). It should also be noted that the members only of this Apostolate are the ones that occupy the twelve thrones in Heaven, as mentioned in Revelation. Therefore with the death of all the Apostles, the Apostolate ceased to exist and there is no longer any need for “apostles”. This is why there is no “apostle” rank in Christendom.

Sorry to say, but the LDS “Apostles” are non-scriptural and are false and spurious.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
pablope said:
And there is no name of any of the LDS apostles either, isn’t it? You cannot trace any lineage of the LDS apostles to any of the original 12.
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For the very simple fact that the restoration took place in 1830.
All priesthood holders in the LDS church can trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter, James and John, who received their priesthood from Jesus Christ. So the line of priesthood is unbroken back to Jesus Christ.
 
SteveVH said:
You forget that the Head of the Church is Christ. It is not at all dependant upon man for its survival. That is the beauty of being Catholic. We have an all powerful leader who remains with his Church and sends the Holy Spirit to guide it.
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We claim Jesus as the head of our church too. Your belief in Jesus Christ was never in question.
 
flyonthewall said:
For the very simple fact that the restoration took place in 1830.
All priesthood holders in the LDS church can trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter, James and John, who received their priesthood from Jesus Christ. So the line of priesthood is unbroken back to Jesus Christ.
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There never was a restoration because none was needed since the Church never apostacized!!.

As for the LDS priesthood, please read my posts.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
flyonthewall said:
For the very simple fact that the restoration took place in 1830.
All priesthood holders in the LDS church can trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter, James and John, who received their priesthood from Jesus Christ. So the line of priesthood is unbroken back to Jesus Christ.
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Okay…show the list. Trace it back…
 
flyonthewall said:
We claim Jesus as the head of our church too. Your belief in Jesus Christ was never in question.
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I’m not sure why you feel the need to deflect and turn the conversation in another direction. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. The point, Fly, is that Christ would never allow his Church to fail. It is a divine institution and human weakness cannot destroy it. The Church has been attacked since its inception, from without and from within, yet it not only survives, but flourishes. It will suffer even more in the future, but the evil one will never prevail. Seek the truth, Fly. Once you find it you will never be the same.

God bless.
 
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