LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[flyonthewall]

Fly:

The Popes ( who are Bishops ) are the rightful successors of the Apostles, by the given authority of Jesus. Mathias, appointed by the Holy Spirit to replace Judas, and Paul who was appointed by Jesus, are the only others listed. The position and title of Apostles ceased to exist with their deaths. There is no scriptural support for any continuation of additional Apostles, therefore there is no need for them.

Bishops were congregational leaders, not replacements for the Apostles. I understand that it is the claim of the Catholic church that Bishops are the succesors to the Apostles.
Ephesians 4:11-13 indicates that there is a need for the continuance of Apostles and Prophets. There was no expiration date put on those offices.
You say that because the scirptures do not mention their continuance, then that means there was no more need for them.
I say that because the scriptures do not mention their continuance, something was missing.

Might I ask if you know what an Apostle is and what the difference is between an Apostle and disciple?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Apostle
Apostle. The word means “one sent forth.” It was the title Jesus gave (Luke 6:13) to the twelve whom he chose and ordained (John 15:16) to be his closest disciples during his ministry on earth, and whom he sent forth to represent him after his ascension into heaven. The calling of an apostle is to be a special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world, particularly of his divinity and of his bodily resurrection from the dead (Acts 1:22; D&C 107:23).

Twelve men with this high calling constitute an administrative council in the work of the ministry. When a vacancy occurred with the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias was divinely appointed to that special office as a member of the council (Acts 1:15–26). Today twelve men with this same divine calling and ordination constitute the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The title was also applied to others who, though not of the number of the original twelve, yet were called to serve as special witnesses of the Lord. Paul repeatedly spoke of himself as an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 9:1; Gal. 1:1). He applied the title to James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19), and also to Barnabas (1 Cor. 9:5–6; cf. Acts 14:4, 14). The New Testament does not inform us whether these three brethren also served in the council of the Twelve as vacancies occurred therein, or whether they were apostles strictly in the sense of being special witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is referred to as an apostle in Heb. 3:1–2, a designation meaning that he is the personal and select representative of the Father.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Fly, this is of course a very catholic understanding of the word apostle.

St. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. Others have been given the title apostle, such as Mary Magdalen, the apostle to the apostles (sent by the resurrected Jesus to tell the Twelve the Good News).

 

[Stephen168]

For the very simple fact that the restoration took place in 1830.
All priesthood holders in the LDS church can trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter, James and John, who received their priesthood from Jesus Christ. So the line of priesthood is unbroken back to Jesus Christ.

Peter, James and John were dead in 1835 when Joseph Smith told the story. The other version was it was a holy angel that gave them authority. So the physical laying on of hands in the Latter Day Saint Movement ends with Joseph Smith.

 

[SteveVH]

For the very simple fact that the restoration took place in 1830.
All priesthood holders in the LDS church can trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter, James and John, who received their priesthood from Jesus Christ. So the line of priesthood is unbroken back to Jesus Christ.

Impressive, indeed. How could anyone argue?

 

[KathleenGee]

Hmmm…

The Church from its beginning with the Apostles and their successors have focused on the Sacrament…and the making of oaths…that are lived out…no adultery, no stealing or lying…people made these oaths at the beginning and that monogamy was the rule ever since the beginning of the Church.

There was a compromise between the Jews and Gentile Christians that although Gentile men did not need to be circumcised, that Christians were to abstain from eating blood, eating animals sacrificed to gods, and those found outside.

The Breaking of the Bread was practiced both between Jew and Gentile. The Church had its bishops, presbyters, and deacons; there were the sacraments of initation – baptism, the Eucharist and confirmation of the Holy Spirit…a deepening and confirming of one’s choice to follow Jesus.

People met for Mass in some regions every single day.

We have our records. For the Vatican to have the largest library in the world reflects a little on the ending words of the Apostles…that there could never be enough books to write about the Lord Jesus.

Catholicism has its documentation as well in its architecture, the catacombs.

It is sad to deny all of this but to believe in things outside of Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Christian history.

 

[pablope]

Peter, James and John were dead in 1835 when Joseph Smith told the story. The other version was it was a holy angel that gave them authority. So the physical laying on of hands in the Latter Day Saint Movement ends with Joseph Smith.

I am confused… Which was it-Peter, James and John or it was an angel?

 

[KathleenGee]

Well…St. Peter said not to delve into private interpretation …2 Peter 2…

There is the exhortation in the apostolic epistles not to listen to angels…

Peter is the rock…

 

[pablope]

Bishops were congregational leaders, not replacements for the Apostles. I understand that it is the claim of the Catholic church that Bishops are the succesors to the Apostles.
Ephesians 4:11-13 indicates that there is a need for the continuance of Apostles and Prophets. There was no expiration date put on those offices.
You say that because the scirptures do not mention their continuance, then that means there was no more need for them.
.
Jesus is referred to as an apostle in Heb. 3:1–2, a designation meaning that he is the personal and select representative of the Father.

Paul repeatedly spoke of himself as an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 9:1; Gal. 1:1).

Check the passages again Fly…it does not say “apostle of the…” Paul writes…“apostle to the gentiles”… meaning sent to the Gentiles to evangelize. Big difference in meaning.

I say that because the scriptures do not mention their continuance, something was missing

So you are saying you are above God by questioning the word of God as it is written? You are in effect questioning the wisdom of the HS that inspired the writer.

 

[Javl]

Bishops were congregational leaders, not replacements for the Apostles. I understand that it is the claim of the Catholic church that Bishops are the succesors to the Apostles.
Ephesians 4:11-13 indicates that there is a need for the continuance of Apostles and Prophets. There was no expiration date put on those offices.
You say that because the scirptures do not mention their continuance, then that means there was no more need for them.
I say that because the scriptures do not mention their continuance, something was missing.

Yes, Bishops are the sucessors of the Apostles, it is not only claimed but is a fact supported by scripture and the Early Church Fathers.

There was/is no need for the continuance of Apostles and Prophets for Jesus not only fulfilled all but completed all. You mis-understand Ephesians 4. Read and understand all, not just one or two verses.

Apostle
Apostle. The word means “one sent forth.” It was the title Jesus gave (Luke 6:13) to the twelve whom he chose and ordained (John 15:16) to be his closest disciples during his ministry on earth, and whom he sent forth to represent him after his ascension into heaven. The calling of an apostle is to be a special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world, particularly of his divinity and of his bodily resurrection from the dead (Acts 1:22; D&C 107:23).

Not only is an Apostle one who is sent forth but an Apostle is an agent or representative with full and complete authority of the one who sends. Jesus is an Apostle of the Father with full authority and he designated the twelve as Apostles with full authority to not only be missionaries and witnesses to His resurrection but also to cast out devils and demons.They were the Apostolate. Others may have been called apostles, but they did not have full authority. Again please read my posts. If you wish, I can go into deeper detail.

Twelve men with this high calling constitute an administrative council in the work of the ministry. When a vacancy occurred with the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias was divinely appointed to that special office as a member of the council (Acts 1:15–26). Today twelve men with this same divine calling and ordination constitute the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Sorry to say, but the “Twelve Apostles” of the LDS are spurious. They have no divine calling or authority. There is no scriptural reason for their existence. Like the original twelve, have they witnessed Jesus’ resurrection? Have they or can they cast out devils and demons? The LDS may call them apostles, but the Bible does not support them and the Bible alone is the rule ( the BoM, D&C, and other LDS documents have no authority in this matter ).

The title was also applied to others who, though not of the number of the original twelve, yet were called to serve as special witnesses of the Lord. Paul repeatedly spoke of himself as an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 9:1; Gal. 1:1). He applied the title to James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19), and also to Barnabas (1 Cor. 9:5–6; cf. Acts 14:4, 14). The New Testament does not inform us whether these three brethren also served in the council of the Twelve as vacancies occurred therein, or whether they were apostles strictly in the sense of being special witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is referred to as an apostle in Heb. 3:1–2, a designation meaning that he is the personal and select representative of the Father.

I have already commented on this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[flyonthewall]

I am confused… Which was it-Peter, James and John or it was an angel?

Peter, James and John, came on an errand of the Lord, they were angels that conferred the priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

 

[flyonthewall]

Check the passages again Fly…it does not say “apostle of the…” Paul writes…“apostle to the gentiles”… meaning sent to the Gentiles to evangelize. Big difference in meaning.

If you check my post, which was from the lds.org website, it recognizes that Paul referred to himself as an Apostle, but it was not known if they were a member of the 12.

So you are saying you are above God by questioning the word of God as it is written? You are in effect questioning the wisdom of the HS that inspired the writer.

You have it wrong. I am saying that the Apostleship was begun by Jesus Christ, but seems to have been discarded as un-necessary.
It is recorded in the scriptures that Apostles and prophets were offices given for a reason and a purpose, but are regarded as un-needed.
It is not the wisdom of God that is in question…but those that regard as un-needed the things that the Lord instituted.

 

[SteveVH]

I am confused… Which was it-Peter, James and John or it was an angel?

Yes, there does seem to be a bit of confusion on that small detail. In the end, does it really matter? Joseph Smith had a vision, or an apparition, or a vivid imagination. It doesn’t matter. Facts are non-existent in this world as is human logic and reason. There is absolutely not degree of reason which can win over the interior feelings. They have the testimony of Joseph Smith and will believe the sky is red regardless of how many times they observe that it is blue.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, Bishops are the sucessors of the Apostles, it is not only claimed but is a fact supported by scripture and the Early Church Fathers.

There was/is no need for the continuance of Apostles and Prophets for Jesus not only fulfilled all but completed all. You mis-understand Ephesians 4. Read and understand all, not just one or two verses.

If Jesus fulfilled all, why did He bother to call the 12 Apostles in the first place? They would be un-necessary after His short ministry.

I have read Ephesians in its entirety, and am positive I understand the context.

Not only is an Apostle one who is sent forth but an Apostle is an agent or representative with full and complete authority of the one who sends. Jesus is an Apostle of the Father with full authority and he designated the twelve as Apostles with full authority to not only be missionaries and witnesses to His resurrection but also to cast out devils and demons.They were the Apostolate. Others may have been called apostles, but they did not have full authority. Again please read my posts. If you wish, I can go into deeper detail.

As you mention below, this has already been addressed.

Sorry to say, but the “Twelve Apostles” of the LDS are spurious. They have no divine calling or authority. There is no scriptural reason for their existence. Like the original twelve, have they witnessed Jesus’ resurrection? Have they or can they cast out devils and demons? The LDS may call them apostles, but the Bible does not support them and the Bible alone is the rule ( the BoM, D&C, and other LDS documents have no authority in this matter ).

I understand this is your position. I debated about including this in the post because I knew it would get such a response, but I wanted to post the definition of the Apostles in its entirety.

 

[KathleenGee]

To deny the authority of the apostles…which would of course last to death, and likewise their duty to have successors is not a different faith system, but rationalism.

If there is anything I am seeing in Mormon arguments, it is indeed rationalism.

Rationalism is not an expression of faith, because it is denying the obvious that Christ came, He rose from the dead, and that He will come again in glory, and that He has left many signs and affirmations of His church.

 

[Javl]

Quote by flyonthewall:
If Jesus fulfilled all, why did He bother to call the 12 Apostles in the first place? They would be un-necessary after His short ministry.

This has been answered, but I will repeat: The Twelve were chosen by Jesus primarily to be witnesses to His resurrection and to authenticate His traditions. To prove His purpose and intentions, Jesus also gave them the power and authority to expell devils and demons.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

There is confusion about what apostle means and how it is implemented. My source is:
newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm

The Greek meaning of Apostle means entrusted and sent on a mission.

The Aramaic meaning of Apostle, the language Christ spoke meant ‘seliah’, those dispatched by the mother city by rulers of every race or foreign nation especially charged with collecting tribute paid to the temple.

This term chosen by Christ reflects the universality of the apostles and their mission to spread the good news to all peoples and races and tongues, and that new believers would be as tribute given to God through Christ, the Ransom.

In Hebrews, that 200 years for the Church to recognize as truly inspired by God, even used the term apostle in relation to Christ…an apostle meaning one chosen by God to bring revealed Truth.

The origin of an apostle is one specially chosen, Mark 3, 13-19; Matthew 10, 1-4, and Luke 6, 12-16, their appointment opposing rationalism that deflects on the apostles as not being chosen by Christ but rather something else.

The office of the apostles required conditions. They were to accompany Jesus, to be witness to Him. They were to share in heralding the Good News, they were given power over unclean spirits by Christ, and were able to heal every disease and illness.

More than that, the office of the Apostles became more clear after Christ’s resurrection.

The authority and perogative of the Apostles came from their office. And to contrast the Mormon understanding of the apostasy that all ended after the death of the last apostle, or that there was a decline of faith at around 300 AD, contrary Christ was to remain with them ‘on all days to the end of ages’, Matthew 28:20.

Preachings was sanctioned, Mark 15:6, the promise of the Father and virtue from above, Luke 24:40.

The apostles made laws…and these laws were not intended to gradually fade away in the beginning years of Christianity…Acts 15:29, 1 Corinthians 7:12. The apostles were to teach Acts 2:37 and following, punish - Acts 5: 1-11.

The apostles were to administer the sacred rites: Acts 6:1, 16:33, 20:11.

Finally, the apostles were to provide successors, 2 Timothy 1:6, Acts 14:22.

Theologically, the apostles had power of jursidiction and magesterium teaching.
Matthew 28: 19-20, Make disciples of nations, baptize them, and lead them to follow Christ’s commands.
In Luke 24, 46-49, the apostles were to preach and testify as immediate witnesses.
In Acts 1:8, 21-22. Out of exercise of their office, apostles governed disciples, preached the doctrines of Jesus as authentic, witness and administer sacred rites…and most of all,

The apostles were all instructed by Jesus Christ, “Of these must one become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Our faith cannot subsist on those who did not witness Christ or His resurrection.

 

[Javl]

If you check my post, which was from the lds.org website, it recognizes that Paul referred to himself as an Apostle, but it was not known if they were a member of the 12.

Although called by Jesus and considered an Apostle, Paul was not a member or part of the Apostolate.

You have it wrong. I am saying that the Apostleship was begun by Jesus Christ, but seems to have been discarded as un-necessary.
It is recorded in the scriptures that Apostles and prophets were offices given for a reason and a purpose, but are regarded as un-needed.
It is not the wisdom of God that is in question…but those that regard as un-needed the things that the Lord instituted.

When a requirement, need, purpose, or position has been fulfilled and completed there is no longer any future need for it. Jesus fulfilled and completed all, and this is the wisdom of God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zaffiroborant]

When a vacancy occurred with the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias was divinely appointed to that special office as a member of the council (Acts 1:15–26). Today twelve men with this same divine calling and ordination constitute the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Except your apostles do not meet the requirements to replace on of the twelve.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, again from the same source, CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles…

Jesus Christ did indeed provide the foundation for the apostles to have successors.

First, Jesus said He would remain, the Church would remain for all ages.

Christ endowed the apostles with His authority for the entire Church. That means all who were, who are now, and who will become…members of His apostolic Church, that would last beyond the death of the apostles and into all ages of mankind.

The successors to the apostles had various titles: presbyter/priest, bishop, president, heads, shepherds, teachers, prophets. But the most frequent minister was a bishop and priest.

At the beginning of the 2nd century, the most frequent ministry were bishop, priest, and deacon…and this all coming from the Jewish Christian model rather than the governing council model. This also implies that all that is given to us about God and His church comes solely from the Jews.

In 96 AD, Clement in Rome addressed the Church of Corinth, adamantly defending the legitimacy of bishops and priests as established successors to govern the church; Clement’s location also reflected the on going reality that centralized and defining authority rested in Rome, although local jursidictions held in all the various regions of the Church in the world.

By the end of the 2nd century, bishops every where were regarded as the legitimate successors to the apostles.

Subsequently, the Catholic Church whose revelation and worship focuses on Christ as the complete revelation of God is the Church divinely instituted by Him and our daily sacrifice of the Mass the worship of Our Lord Himself – His body, blood, His divinity, His soul. He is there always waiting for us to come to Him and to share His Divine life with us.

Jesus is the daily source of our restoration and new life.

 

[flyonthewall]

Although called by Jesus and considered an Apostle, Paul was not a member or part of the Apostolate.

When a requirement, need, purpose, or position has been fulfilled and completed there is no longer any future need for it. Jesus fulfilled and completed all, and this is the wisdom of God.

The reason and purpose as set forth in Ephesians is:
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The expiration date or criteria is as follows:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Notice that all these offices are compared to the whole body, that they all fit together and function as one. The language used does not point to any body part being discarded, but they all have a role to perform and are joined together for the edifying of the whole.
A perfect man. A complete man. No missing parts.