LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Stephen168]

I mean that the office of Apostle was discontinued. It was the office of the Apostle that was given authority of leadership for the church as a whole.

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency.

In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.

In 1835, The Book of Commandments was rewritten to be Doctrine and Covenants as Smith invented the Melchizedek Priesthood. Joseph Smith claimed he received the ‘keys of the kingdom’ from Peter, James and John.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’

In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.

In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.

In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.

In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.

In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.

In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

In 1848, Oliver Cowdery said a ‘Holy Angel’ came down and gave the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys of the kingdom’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

 

[Stephen168]

Name the apostles that lived during the 2nd century…3rd century…and so on. The diffrence is, we still have apostles and prophets, where as you reject them as unnecessary.

The term ‘Apostle’ means one who is sent. Jesus selected The Twelve: Simon (Peter/Cephas/Rock), James (the Greater/son of Zebedee/brother of John), John (the Evangelist/the brother of James), Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (the Lesser/the son of Alphaeus), Jude (Thaddaeus), Simon (the Zealot/Canaanite), and Judas Iscariot. Christ sent the Twelve (Matthew 10:5). Christ selected 70 more and they were sent (Luke 10:1). Mark and Luke the Evangelists are referred to as Apostles. By tradition, James, Luke, and Mark were members of the seventy. Paul and Barnabas were called Apostles (Acts 14:14, Gal 2:9, Acts 13:1-3). Barnabas was taught by the Twelve and was with Paul on his first journey. These Apostles are the witnesses and recorders of Christ’s earthly ministry. Most were witnesses to his resurrection.

Just as sheep have four legs but not all animals with four legs are sheep; all the Apostles were not ‘The Twelve.’ The Twelve were the foundation of his Church (Eph 2:19-22), but not just any 12 but THE Twelve (Rev 21:14). The corner stone and the foundation are laid once. Just as Christ is eternally the head of the Church, The Twelve are the eternal foundation.

Because of Judas’ apostasy (Acts 1:25), the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias.
According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are:

a) Witness the resurrected Lord

b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth.

These requirements limit the council membership to the first century. After all the men that walked with the twelve, while the Lord walked the earth, died; no one else qualified. The Twelve was never meant to be on going. This was the only time eleven selected a twelfth; one apostasy, one replacement. Revelation 21:14: Peter/Cephas/Rock, James son of Zebedee, John the Evangelist, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Jude, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias.
Just as there was no need to replace Christ as the head of Church after the crucifixion, or replace The Twelve as the foundation after their deaths; the Twelve were not replaced after their deaths. If Apostle was only an office to be filled, they could have easily been replaced; just like Bishops have been replaced for almost 2000 years.

The only consistent meaning to being called ‘Apostle’ seems to be an Evangelist who was taught by Christ or The Twelve. The Twelve would pass from the earth by design. The title of Apostle would pass from the earth because The Twelve were not here to commission them. When Eusebius (Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History © 324) refers to an Apostle being replaced it is as the Apostle’s position of Bishop (Peter in Rome, James in Jerusalem) not as Apostles. As the Apostles died, IF they were also Bishops, they were replaced by Bishops.

“For by her activity the machinations of her foes were promptly shown up and extinguished, though one after another heresies were invented, the earlier ones constantly passing away and disappearing, in different ways at different times, into forms of every shape and character. But the splendor of the Catholic and one true Church, always remaining the same and unchanged, grew steadily in greatness and strength,” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History Book IV, Chapter 7.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also want to comment on the misunderstandings about the Catholic Church and how there are those who make our church out to be so burdensome. For me, actively working against my church and making it out to be something it is not, is being in the apostasy…

Besides believing our Church was founded directly by Jesus Christ, having consecrated and ordained ministers, the 7 sacraments centered on the Eucharist as real blood and flesh of Christ, the belief in the 10 commandments and their full understanding through the Church, and faith in the forgiveness of sins in the sacrament through Christ, due honor to Mary, Mother of Christ, and our profession of faith in the Creed, we also are to…

Keep the Sundays and holy days of obligation by assisting at Mass and desisting from servile work.

Go to confession atleast once a year.

Receive the Blessed Sacrament during the season of Easter.

Fast and abstain on the days appointed by the Church – Ash Wednesday and the 6 Fridays during Lent.

Contribute to the support of the church and pastors.

And in the USA, the Catholic bishops exhort us to join in the missionary and apostolate work of the Church…our country is designated as a mission country just like others in Africa…

We are to respond according to our conscience.

I find Catholicism most reasonable. I do not see anything in the above as reflecting of some apostasy. But I see defined expectations because that is what Church is…a shared faith.

 

[flyonthewall]

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency.

In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.

In 1835, The Book of Commandments was rewritten to be Doctrine and Covenants as Smith invented the Melchizedek Priesthood. Joseph Smith claimed he received the ‘keys of the kingdom’ from Peter, James and John.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’

In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.

In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.

In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.

In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.

In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.

In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

In 1848, Oliver Cowdery said a ‘Holy Angel’ came down and gave the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys of the kingdom’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

You have built a house of cards.

In D&C 20(April of 1830) it states:

2Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

This clearly shows that Apostles existed at the very foundation(restoration) of the church.

In D&C 27 it states:"

2And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and special witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

This very clearly states that the keys of the kingdom were given upon the ordination to the apostleship of Joseph.
What you have demonstrated is that you really don’t read beyond what you copy & paste.

 

[lax16]

If you could use the quote tags, it would help make replying to you easier…

Hey, I finally figured it out! Thanks for the prompting!

The key to enduring under guidance of the Holy Spirit, is that people have to be guided. God does not force anyone if they choose not to.

Do you think it is wrong to claim that the Holy Spirit was no longer guiding people?
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would stay to guide His Church - you claim that didn’t happen. Did Jesus lie, not know, change His mind…what? Please answer the question.

Catholics know better than most that there is free will. If we miss mass, we are not going to get a phone call asking why we weren’t there (unless a friend is curious). I worked for someone and used to take the calls from the LDS church asking why he was not in church. He told me to tell them he wasn’t home.
We don’t have to tithe. Nobody knocks on our door collecting money on fasting Sundays looking for our mandatory donation.
Please don’t tell me that Mormons have free will when it comes to participation.

The Holy Spirit did not leave the earth, I beleive there were many people throughout history that felt the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
And I do believe that the LDS church is a restoration of the early church.

If the Holy Spirit did not leave the earth then how could there be a period of darkness?
If the Holy Spirit did not leave the earth then how could the Church be without leadership?
Why would the Holy Spirit withhold graces from people?
Once again, are you accusing the early Christians of not being led by the Holy Spirit?
Why? How?

That free will works both ways though.

Yes, it does. Therefore you cannot accuse of people who lived 2000 years ago of making bad choices.

Jesus and the Father both appeared to Joseph Smith.
No we do not consider it the 2nd coming. His 2nd coming will be unmistakeable and in glory and power.

In which vision?

Name the apostles that lived during the 2nd century…3rd century…and so on. The diffrence is, we still have apostles and prophets, where as you reject them as unnecessary.

I don’t understand your question. Are you saying that a pope is not an apostle, a vicar, of Christ?

I mean that the office of Apostle was discontinued. It was the office of the Apostle that was given authority of leadership for the church as a whole.

Please explain EXACTLY how this should have been done and when it was missed.

 

[Stephen168]

You have built a house of cards.

In D&C 20(April of 1830) it states: This clearly shows that Apostles existed at the very foundation(restoration) of the church.

In D&C 27 it states:"
This very clearly states that the keys of the kingdom were given upon the ordination to the apostleship of Joseph.
What you have demonstrated is that you really don’t read beyond what you copy & paste.

Doctrine and Covenants was re-written with LOTS of additional “revelation” to justify the creating of the title ‘apostle’ and Melchizedek Priesthood. All of your quotes were added in 1835. Apostles were a latter invention of Joseph Smith, and an apostle having the ‘keys to the kingdom’ was an invention of Brigham Young to get control of the Mormon Church. Mormon history does not support current Mormon belief, which is why many Mormons leave the Church when they make that discovery.

 

[lax16]

Doctrine and Covenants was re-written with LOTS of additional “revelation” to justify the creating of the title ‘apostle’ and Melchizedek Priesthood. All of your quotes were added in 1835. Apostles were a latter invention of Joseph Smith, and an apostle having the ‘keys to the kingdom’ was an invention of Brigham Young to get control of the Mormon Church. Mormon history does not support current Mormon belief, which is why many Mormons leave the Church when they make that discovery.

Using the Doctrine and Covenants to prove that Mormonism is true…

 

[Stephen168]

Using the Doctrine and Covenants to prove that Mormonism is true…

Well, using the D&C to prove an Apostasy of the Catholic Church. Smith said it and look it is written down. Written down by somebody at sometime. .

Any proof that I’ve heard a Mormon use to show as a ‘sign’ of the ‘Great Apostasy’ is also found in the Mormon Church. It has become such a hypocritical claim, that they have nothing rational or factual left to go on. They just believe it, based solidly on nothing.

 

[lax16]

Well, using the D&C to prove an Apostasy of the Catholic Church. Smith said it and look it is written down. Written down by somebody at sometime. .

Any proof that I’ve heard a Mormon use to show as a ‘sign’ of the ‘Great Apostasy’ is also found in the Mormon Church. It has become such a hypocritical claim, that they have nothing rational or factual left to go on. They just believe it, based solidly on nothing.

I guess that would be like using the Catechism to prove the Catholic Church’s teachings are true? No, on second thought, that wouldn’t work because the CCC references early church history and the bible.

It is like being diagnosed with a serious illness and not getting a second opinion, or hearing of a great tragedy and not being able to find any news of it anywhere else … Just accepting what you are being told without anyway to check the facts…

 

[KathleenGee]

The Book of Mormon is not the work of the apostles. A non-Jew is not called to provide us the full understanding of Christ, His gospel, His church. All of that is the work of the Jewish race chosen by God to bring forth the Messiah of the world.

We have been given all we need 2000 years ago.

I hope and pray Italy and Europe will study more the truth of Mormonism as it works very hard to remove the truth about what it is, how it is evolved, how much money it draws, how much control it has over its members. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[flyonthewall]

Hey, I finally figured it out! Thanks for the prompting!

Oh, thats so much better!

Do you think it is wrong to claim that the Holy Spirit was no longer guiding people?
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would stay to guide His Church - you claim that didn’t happen. Did Jesus lie, not know, change His mind…what? Please answer the question.

I believe the Holy Spirit was there to guide, but as I stated, it is the choice of the individual to follow or not. The “church” is made up of individuals.
Now I am not saying that nobody felt the influence of the Holy Spirit, I am sure there were.
I have given examples of instances where congregations or churches have fallen away. Was Jesus a liar or did not forsee these events? Why didn’t the Holy Spirit keep these churches on the correct path? These churches or congregations were ones that were identified. The apostles were constantly trying to keep errors from creeping in. Were these congregational leaders not led by the Holy Spirit?

Catholics know better than most that there is free will. If we miss mass, we are not going to get a phone call asking why we weren’t there (unless a friend is curious). I worked for someone and used to take the calls from the LDS church asking why he was not in church. He told me to tell them he wasn’t home.
We don’t have to tithe. Nobody knocks on our door collecting money on fasting Sundays looking for our mandatory donation.
Please don’t tell me that Mormons have free will when it comes to participation.

You know what…? when I miss church, nobody calls me to find out where I was, perhaps a freind will call to see if everything is alright.
I don’t HAVE to tithe, it is totally voluntary.
Knocking on doors collecting for fast offerings is a service performed for the benefit of the poor, and there are absolutely NO mandatory donations.
So, I guess I have to say it…Mormons have free will when it comes to participation.

If the Holy Spirit did not leave the earth then how could there be a period of darkness?
If the Holy Spirit did not leave the earth then how could the Church be without leadership?
Why would the Holy Spirit withhold graces from people?
Once again, are you accusing the early Christians of not being led by the Holy Spirit?
Why? How?

The Catholic church did indeed have leadership, there is no argument there. The issue is whether or not they had the proper keys of leadership from God. People can be led by the Spirit without the keys of leadership, but on a personal level.

Yes, it does. Therefore you cannot accuse of people who lived 2000 years ago of making bad choices.

If it weren’t for Jesus Christ, it would not have come to light…well there were others that came to the conclusion that something was amiss.

In which vision?

Per the scriptures.

I don’t understand your question. Are you saying that a pope is not an apostle, a vicar, of Christ?

You tell me…is the Pope an apostle? I have never heard the Pope referred to as an apostle. I have heard the term “vicar” but it is not the same as “apostle”.

Please explain EXACTLY how this should have been done and when it was missed.

There were several new apostles called to replace ones that died. This is the process that should have been continued, but it was not. If you can show any record where the Apostles continued, then by all means show it. Bishops are not apostles. Elders are not apostles. Apostles are apostles.

 

[lax16]

I believe the Holy Spirit was there to guide, but as I stated, it is the choice of the individual to follow or not. The “church” is made up of individuals.
Now I am not saying that nobody felt the influence of the Holy Spirit, I am sure there were.
I have given examples of instances where congregations or churches have fallen away. Was Jesus a liar or did not forsee these events? Why didn’t the Holy Spirit keep these churches on the correct path? These churches or congregations were ones that were identified. The apostles were constantly trying to keep errors from creeping in. Were these congregational leaders not led by the Holy Spirit?

Please stop saying this and prove it. Prove that all of the apostles failed, not just one or two.
I don’t understand the answer to my question - “These churches or congregations were ones that were identified.”
Please answer my questions regarding the Holy Spirit.

You know what…? when I miss church, nobody calls me to find out where I was, perhaps a freind will call to see if everything is alright.
I don’t HAVE to tithe, it is totally voluntary.
Knocking on doors collecting for fast offerings is a service performed for the benefit of the poor, and there are absolutely NO mandatory donations.
So, I guess I have to say it…Mormons have free will when it comes to participation.

Lucky you. Do you live in Utah?

The Catholic church did indeed have leadership, there is no argument there. The issue is whether or not they had the proper keys of leadership from God. People can be led by the Spirit without the keys of leadership, but on a personal level.

Why wouldn’t the proper keys of leadership come from God? Give me just one reason other than because JS told me so.
No, people cannot be without the Holy Spirit if Jesus promised it - that would make Jesus a liar and a failure.

If it weren’t for Jesus Christ, it would not have come to light…well there were others that came to the conclusion that something was amiss.

Who? Please don’t mention Martin Luther 1500 years later.

Per the scriptures.

Which ones?

You tell me…is the Pope an apostle? I have never heard the Pope referred to as an apostle. I have heard the term “vicar” but it is not the same as “apostle”

.

You are right. He is a bishop. I was referring to apostolic succession.

There were several new apostles called to replace ones that died. This is the process that should have been continued, but it was not. If you can show any record where the Apostles continued, then by all means show it. Bishops are not apostles. Elders are not apostles. Apostles are apostles.

Um, how do you know it was not continued? Can you please stop falsely accusing the apostles of falling down on the job? It is really, really wrong to accuse someone of doing something wrong without proof and spreading the rumor around. (And yes, the apostles would have been doing something wrong by disobeying Jesus. Just like if you tell your children/employees etc to do something really important and they don’t do it causing spiritual darkness for 1800 years, you might get angry at their lack of obedience).
A record of apostolic succession? You know it exists. Why are you asking?

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormonism is basically anti-Catholic. It rejects the continuity and fidelity to the teachings of the Apostles; it rejects history, but instead prefers to believe in an angel and myths.

Mormonism uses the Protestant Bibles for reference, never Catholic.

Finally, it uses feelings…burning deep in the bosom…rather than look at the context on the walk to Emmaus. Christ teaches and interprets Scripture for them, He makes Scripture come alive, teaching them everything in spirit and life, and ends the teaching of the Word with the Eucharist, and the breaking of the bread…and making the Word of God come alive causes those to experience a burning in the bosom when He spoke.

Christ was not talking about new ideas, new tribes, new theology…He was simply making the Scriptures, already present come alive through Him.

For He is not speaking of passion, of the flesh, of burning bosom to to affirm new ideas outside the Word of God and Salvation History. Jesus is speaking in Spirit and Life, as He spoke of previously in John.

The spiritual life always warns us not to have confidence in our feelings or passions because then we are only following the flesh. Christ is not about the flesh…He is about Spirit and Truth and Life.

Jesus is the Truth, not Joseph Smith or golden plates or spectacles to enlighten.
Isaiah said there would come a messiah who would bring light to those in the world walking in darkness.

Only Jesus can bring light to the world and restore us…no man, no passion, no flesh. It is the flesh that leads us to sin. It is Jesus Christ Who leads us to new life and shares with us His divine life in the sacraments and to extend His presence into the world through service and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It is Jesus Who is calling us not to live in the flesh or passions but to live in the reality and transcendence of the beatitudes.

 

[flyonthewall]

Please stop saying this and prove it. Prove that all of the apostles failed, not just one or two.
I don’t understand the answer to my question - “These churches or congregations were ones that were identified.”
Please answer my questions regarding the Holy Spirit.

I don’t believe the Apostles failed. They worked hard in the ministry of Christ and they established congregations throughout the area. The “failure” would not be on the part of the Apostles.
I point to the churches or congregations that strayed as examples of leadership not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Or are you saying the Holy Ghost guided them into straying?

Lucky you. Do you live in Utah?

Not only do I live in Utah, but Utah county. I have lived most of my life outside of Utah and the last 10yrs in Utah, and can tell you that your idea of what happens is skewed and inaccurate.
The church has nothing in place and no need for demands of why someone missed church.

Why wouldn’t the proper keys of leadership come from God? Give me just one reason other than because JS told me so.

Because Jesus Christ said it.

No, people cannot be without the Holy Spirit if Jesus promised it - that would make Jesus a liar and a failure.

So the Galatians were guided by the Holy Spirit to depart from the gospel of Christ? The Galatians have made Jesus a liar and failure…is that what you saying?

Who? Please don’t mention Martin Luther 1500 years later.

Martin Luther wasn’t the only person to come to the conclusion something was not right.

Which ones?

Acts 1:11, 2 Peter 3:10, Zechariah 14:9, Revelation 11:15 just to name a few.

You are right. He is a bishop. I was referring to apostolic succession.

Um, how do you know it was not continued? Can you please stop falsely accusing the apostles of falling down on the job? It is really, really wrong to accuse someone of doing something wrong without proof and spreading the rumor around. (And yes, the apostles would have been doing something wrong by disobeying Jesus. Just like if you tell your children/employees etc to do something really important and they don’t do it causing spiritual darkness for 1800 years, you might get angry at their lack of obedience).
A record of apostolic succession? You know it exists. Why are you asking?

Okay, then tell me the names of the Apostles during the 2nd century. Tell me the names of the apostles that were in attendance at the council of Nicea. Who was the Apostle that replaced Peter? James? John?
It is your claim, as I understand it, that there was Apostolic succession…sans apostles.

 

[Stephen168]

There were several new apostles called to replace ones that died.

Several? Do you have a historical reference for three?

This is the process that should have been continued, but it was not.

Do you have a biblical reference for this claim?

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t believe the Apostles failed. They worked hard in the ministry of Christ and they established congregations throughout the area. The “failure” would not be on the part of the Apostles.
I point to the churches or congregations that strayed as examples of leadership not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Or are you saying the Holy Ghost guided them into straying?

It seems to me that, if the truth of the Church, and “priesthood authority” were dependant upon the ordination of “Apostles”, rather than bishops, that this would be a detail that would be all important in carrying out Christ’s command to preach the Gospel to the whole world. It is a detail that if left undone would have to indeed be called a “failure” of the Apostles. As I understand the Mormon belief, the only reason that “churches or congregations” strayed was because of the loss of “priesthood authority” and the truth held by the Apostles. If the LDS premise is correct, then this would have been all important in continuing Christ’s Church. Accepting this premise necessarily requires the failure, not only of the Apostles, but of Christ Himself.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper. Many of His disciples left Him shortly before when He began to speak of eating and drinking of His flesh and blood…that He is speaking not of the flesh, but of spirit and life.

Those who remained faithful to Him were the 12 He had personally chosen.

Jesus said of His very chosen, one would betray HIm.

We have to ask ourselves what is it that is hardening our hearts to disbelieve that Christ would not institute His church, deny the essence of His mission – to bring light to the world to people walking in darkness…and

then to return His people, whom He died for, to resume walking in darkness.

The Mormons were allowed to have successors…but not the apostles.

I do not see the apostles, chosen by Christ, being on the same plane as Joseph Smith or his followers and their behaviors and caliber, and yet these former were allowed to institute a church and have successors…but the apostles of whom most died as martyrs for Christ, were not.

The above simply doesn’t make any sense, except in that as a former Mormon president said, the Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

Jesus instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper. Many of His disciples left Him shortly before when He began to speak of eating and drinking of His flesh and blood…that He is speaking not of the flesh, but of spirit and life.

Those who remained faithful to Him were the 12 He had personally chosen.

Jesus said of His very chosen, one would betray HIm.

We have to ask ourselves what is it that is hardening our hearts to disbelieve that Christ would not institute His church, deny the essence of His mission – to bring light to the world to people walking in darkness…and

then to return His people, whom He died for, to resume walking in darkness.

The Mormons were allowed to have successors…but not the apostles.

I do not see the apostles, chosen by Christ, being on the same plane as Joseph Smith or his followers and their behaviors and caliber, and yet these former were allowed to institute a church and have successors…but the apostles of whom most died as martyrs for Christ, were not.

The above simply doesn’t make any sense, except in that as a former Mormon president said, the Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus.

The Apostles hold the unique characteristic of having walked with Christ and having been witnesses to his resurrection, even Mathias. Paul is also referenced as an Apostle, but he did, in fact, witness the resurrected Christ. It is the LDS view that “Apostle” is an office that could continue that is in error. It is akin to believing that we should have the office of “founding fathers” in America. It is impossible. It is the authority of the Apostles that was handed down to the bishops of the Catholic Church, not the office of Apostle. Apostle is simply not an office. The Apostles held the “office” of bishop.

 

[flyonthewall]

It seems to me that, if the truth of the Church, and “priesthood authority” were dependant upon the ordination of “Apostles”, rather than bishops, that this would be a detail that would be all important in carrying out Christ’s command to preach the Gospel to the whole world. It is a detail that if left undone would have to indeed be called a “failure” of the Apostles. As I understand the Mormon belief, the only reason that “churches or congregations” strayed was because of the loss of “priesthood authority” and the truth held by the Apostles. If the LDS premise is correct, then this would have been all important in continuing Christ’s Church. Accepting this premise necessarily requires the failure, not only of the Apostles, but of Christ Himself.

The Apostasy came about with a combination of things, it was not dependent on the loss of the priesthood, as is evidenced by the Galatians. The loss of the priesthood was the final straw. It started with errors creeping in and after the loss of the priesthood, there was no turning back.
The Apostles did all they could. They were sent out to preach the Gospel, they were dispersed. They needed to assemble together to select a replacement, and I beleive the opportunity just did not present itself.

 

[pablope]

The Apostasy came about with a combination of things, it was not dependent on the loss of the priesthood, as is evidenced by the Galatians. The loss of the priesthood was the final straw. It started with errors creeping in and after the loss of the priesthood, there was no turning back.
The Apostles did all they could. They were sent out to preach the Gospel, they were dispersed. They needed to assemble together to select a replacement, and I beleive the opportunity just did not present itself.

Saying it and proving it are two different things. What is the combination of things? Cite and present the proof for all to see, not Biblical verses taken out of context, and a statement from your D and C, not just a mere statement from JS. If you claim it was prophesied in the Bible, then there should be an independent document, study, historical account that supports or gives credence to the claim and prophesy.