LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

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So you answer a question with a question? (doing my best Jewish imitation:p)

flyonthewall - Why are you comparing the Israelites,sinners, complainers, disbelievers, with Jesus Christ our Messiah, perfect, sinless, Divine?
I am not comparing the Israelites with Jesus, I am comparing the Israelites with other Israelites.
 
Flyonthewall,

You need to study Christianity, especially the Apostolic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, accordingly from its documented base, not from the prism of Mormonism. If you do, ‘we’ will never win, nothing we say means anything, history, our lives of our saints and the charism they had, but especially the truth of Who Jesus Christ is and His mission to us and the world.

Mormonism is completely unsubstantiated. It had to create a new story, a new hidden tribe…in America no less, in an attempt to re-write Christianity.

You can’t stereotype and invalidate an entire class of people, in this case the apostolic Church. It is individuals within who leave the grace of Christ and creed, not entire entities of peoples covering Christiandom in that ancient time.

First of all, Mormonism isn’t even defining the actual tenants that were false, the actual dates and events…just some vague – and prejudiced – spin on the Church.
You were raised in alot of bias and regimented to think within a certain box, never to question, saying well, you are not being faithful. How many times have people become the strongest believers because they questioned to the point of suffering for it, and then to find the Truth, and become great people.

My prayer for Mormons is to become free and face the truth of Christ and the Church that He established. If Christ’s Church failed, then He was not the true Christ to begin with. But we know the Christ then is the same Christ of today and for all eternity.
I have but to look at our own records to demonstrate that Mormonism is substantiated. Our records are accurate, and we have the words of Jesus to verify all that we teach.
 
‘Man was God before God became God…’…my quote.

To label Christianity as corrupt, an abomination with no concrete proof of how the apostolic church became apostate is a form of falsehood and injustice in itself.
We know the how, and have shown you the evidence confirmed by Apostles.
Not sure what you are referring to.
Just as conversion is the reality of one heart at a time turning to God, so is apostasy the action of one person rejecting God and His Apostolic Church.
Apostasy is turning away from God and His teachings, although it can be done by an individual, if enough individuals or individuals in leadership fall away and alter the teachings, then the group that follows is in apostasy too.
So if Mormonism rejects Christianity, then who is the apostate???
We do not reject Christianity, we embrace it.
One cannot reasonably make such a claim that the apostasy began somewhere down the slippery slope…while in reality the successors to the Apostles’ ever riding concern was to be faithful to the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ through His apostles in baptism, the Eucharist as sacrifice, the books of Scripture, and the Creed.
The Apostles had no successors as is apparent that there were no longer any Apostles. As I have stated before, there were local leaders left, but church leadership went vacant.
It took some time after the death of St. John the Evangelist to verify without any lingering doubt that his writings of the Gospel, the Epistles, and Revelations were truly his, and the Epistles to the Hebrews took 200 years to approve.
Christians have been worshipping God in the reception of the Eucharist for 2,000 years. The Great Heresy in those days was to be like the followers who rejected Jesus when He began to speak of eating His flesh and blood, thinking He was leading them into cannibalism…the great heresy being to reject the inner presence of God in the Eucharist.
Those followers were correct to reject the cannibalistic imagery as that is not what Jesus was saying, they were wrong to not understand the spiritual imagery He was trying to convey.
The Catholic/Orthodox Church is where one will receive the Eucharist…the succession of the Apostles and the laying on of hands never broken.
I also pray for the dear Mormon people, and especially the women, to learn more about Mary the Mother of Jesus in the Catholic tradition, to read about testimonies attributed to her great help in our Christian walk, and in the restoration of women in the New Eve of Mary.
We know as much about Mary as the scriptures and Jesus Christ taught us.
[/QUOTE]
 
Fly:

All I can say is that the LDS follows that old saying: “look who’s calling the kettle black!”.

I say this in all Christian Charity and pray that your eyes are opened soon. The LDS Church is grasping at straws to try to become legitimate in the eyes of Christianity. With its revolving and unstable doctrines ( theology ) and inane statements, it does not have a true leg to stand on. The sooner you realize this the better off you will be.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I am not comparing the Israelites with Jesus, I am comparing the Israelites with other Israelites.
Hi flyonthewall - What you are doing is not answering my question.

Why would God take away what Jesus established?
(And, no, the answer is not “So Joseph Smith could come as a prophet and restore it all”)
 
Remember when Joseph Smith had God appear to him and tell him not to join any church because of corruption and abomination??? That is the construct of Mormonism…and the world plunged into darkness…the church of satan and the church of Joseph Smith’s…
 
Remember when Joseph Smith had God appear to him and tell him not to join any church because of corruption and abomination??? That is the construct of Mormonism…and the world plunged into darkness…the church of satan and the church of Joseph Smith’s…
Which version of the “First Vision” are you referring to?😃
 
Hi flyonthewall - What you are doing is not answering my question.

Why would God take away what Jesus established?
(And, no, the answer is not “So Joseph Smith could come as a prophet and restore it all”)
He took it away for the same reason the House of Israel was scattered and it’s kingdom destroyed…apostasy.
Paul described how it would happen and that it had already started.
Jesus stated that a restitution of all things would be in the future.
John stated that the dragon would overcome the saints and would be given power over ALL kindreds, tongues and nations.
The scriptures stated it would happen, and it happened.
 
Remember when Joseph Smith had God appear to him and tell him not to join any church because of corruption and abomination??? That is the construct of Mormonism…and the world plunged into darkness…the church of satan and the church of Joseph Smith’s…
The world plunged into darkness long before Joseph Smith came along…there is even a name for that period…
 
He took it away for the same reason the House of Israel was scattered and it’s kingdom destroyed…apostasy.
Paul described how it would happen and that it had already started.
Jesus stated that a restitution of all things would be in the future.
John stated that the dragon would overcome the saints and would be given power over ALL kindreds, tongues and nations.
The scriptures stated it would happen, and it happened.
Okay flyonthewall - Let me try this again.

Why would God want an apostasy? What purpose would it serve?

Jesus also stated/promised that His Church would endure forever under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why don’t you believe Him?

Do you understand that for one to believe that God established and fulfilled His promise with Jesus, only to have it not work, He would need a reason? God is in control of all things, is He not?

The only reason for you to argue that the apostasy happened is to set the stage for Joseph Smith.

We all know that many of the early Mormons were scattered and left the church or started others…are you (LDS) in apostasy?

btw - please show scriptural proof that the priesthood authority was not passed on after the apostles.
 
The world plunged into darkness long before Joseph Smith came along…there is even a name for that period…
After hearing the story of the abortion doctor in Philadelphia I would say the world continues to be plunged in darkness.

You can call it anything you want. It doesn’t matter. That’s why Jesus came to save us from it all. We don’t need J.S. to steer us out of darkness.
 
Conversion is one heart at a time. We do not come to Christ with others…it is our own free will. One person at a time.

The first 300 years of Christianity were marked by persecution. Christianity was legalized under Constantine, but then the invasion of barbarians brought in more instability for the next several hundreds of years.

People were continually having their faith tested. Then around 600 AD, Mohammedism arose wiping out heavily populated Christian areas of Egypt, Syria, Palestine.

Then we have the Schism and more trevail.

After that, there were internal conflicts, dissipation…but great saints—Francis, Dominic, and other religious orders…

The plague came in the 1340’s, another horrific epic in humanity.

The Reformation came splitting the Church apart, people killing each other in the name of the Word of God and national state.

We had then the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason…but the beginnings of atheism and secret societies…

The Catholic Church was a great guide down through time inspite of inner betrayals.

We focus on Christ, His Word, His Sacraments in the Mass…all down through time, the only constancy in this world.

Then the Reformation…the En
 
Okay flyonthewall - Let me try this again.

Why would God want an apostasy? What purpose would it serve?
God does not want apostasy, never did. It’s those rascally people that He chose that just didn’t seem to stay true.
Jesus also stated/promised that His Church would endure forever under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why don’t you believe Him?
I believe Him and do believe that His church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Do you understand that for one to believe that God established and fulfilled His promise with Jesus, only to have it not work, He would need a reason? God is in control of all things, is He not?
Sounds like a pattern with the House of Israel. Of course when things don’t work out, it is not the fault of God, but of people.
God does not force His will on anyone…He leads, and we must follow…just like the Good Shepherd.
The only reason for you to argue that the apostasy happened is to set the stage for Joseph Smith
. Not quite correct. It was Jesus that stated there was need for a restitution, and Jesus that stated His church was not to be found.
We all know that many of the early Mormons were scattered and left the church or started others…are you (LDS) in apostasy?
We also know that the leadership was left intact. We still have Apostles, and a Prophet.
btw - please show scriptural proof that the priesthood authority was not passed on after the apostles.
The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.
To use your question, why would Jesus set up Apostles only to have them end?
 
We also know that the leadership was left intact. We still have Apostles, and a Prophet.

The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.
To use your question, why would Jesus set up Apostles only to have them end?
And your apostles do not meet the criteria outlined for an Apostle in Acts 1
 
I normally don’t do this, but by request I am opening this thread back up beyond the 1000 post limit. Around 1100 however, I would suggest starting a new one.
Eric
 
God does not want apostasy, never did. It’s those rascally people that He chose that just didn’t seem to stay true.

God knew/knows that people will sin. However, He promised His Church would endure under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No rascally person can trump that!

I believe Him and do believe that His church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Then did the Holy Spirit leave the earth after the last apostle died?
If so, where is it stated and when did the Holy Spirit return?
I am assuming you mean the LDS church when you say His church? He promised to stay with The Church He established with Peter, not Joseph Smith.

Sounds like a pattern with the House of Israel. Of course when things don’t work out, it is not the fault of God, but of people.
God does not force His will on anyone…He leads, and we must follow…just like the Good Shepherd.

Yes, free will, along with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit = people doing their best to keep the Church going…

Not quite correct. It was Jesus that stated there was need for a restitution, and Jesus that stated His church was not to be found.

So Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith? Do Mormons consider it the Second Coming then?

We also know that the leadership was left intact. We still have Apostles, and a Prophet.

So do we! Remember, what’s good for the goose is good for gander.
If you had early church members/leaders who left and who disagreed, then your church was in apostasy. I have read scores of accounts of early Mormon church leaders reprimanding their members.
So, what’s the difference between the early Catholic Church and the early Mormon Church?

The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.

What do you mean by the Apostles did not continue? Do you mean live forever?

To use your question, why would Jesus set up Apostles only to have them end?
He didn’t and to say He did is very serious, my friend. Jesus was not a liar or a failure.
 
Flyonthewall did point out that there was a following away from Christ in the Gospels.

In the Gospel of John 6: 54,Christ says, “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6: 63, “It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” And then in John 6:66, “As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

Peter replied that where else could they go and that Our Lord promised Eternal Life…and that the Lord Jesus is the ‘Holy One of God’, Peter the mortal rock upon which Christ built His Church…of spirit and truth and life…that did not end after the death of the last apostle or a gradual falling away.

We as Catholics have believed since these very apostles that the bread and wine becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Our faith is based not on mere words of God…but the Incarnate Word of God…of spirit and life…incarnated in people, liturgy, sacraments…God given forms of worshipping the Lord in the way that He desires, not what we think He may want or we want.

We believe in the sacraments…from the Latin word ‘sacramentum’…that was a public profession of a sacred oath found in both ritual and the concrete. Quoting from Fr. Jeremy Driscoll’s, “What Happens at Mass,” If we ask what the Church of the first four or five centuries understood about the bread and wine of the Eucharistic rite, we could respond by saying that there was at this time an almost instinctive sense of the nature of a sacrament. The bread and wine was a sacrament of the Lord’s body and blood. (Other terms were also used: figure of his body and blood, type of, image of, the mystery of …etc.) That is, by means of bread and wine we come into contact with something that now would otherwise be beyond reach; namely, the risen and glorified body of Christ, no longer confined to space and time."

“So, by means of a sacrament we come in contact with space and time with something that transcends space and time. The sacrament is a middle term between us and the transcendent body of the Lord. I can touch and hold another person in my hands, make contact with another through touch. It is not quite the same with Christ, though it is similar. With Christ I touch the sacrament of his body and thereby make contact with his body through my body. The sacramental experience is at one and the same time concrete and transcendent, just as Christ is concrete and transcendent.”

In the Middle Ages, controversies arose, “and it took several centuries to establish the view that the Eucharist can be real without being crudely realistic, and symbolic without being unreal.” Fr Jeremy Driscoll.

Our faith centers around in the Word of God centered around the Eucharist, the summit of our faith. Our sacrament transcends space and time…and so it is impossible for Mormonism to define and point out where the apostasy occurred and in what manner and by whom.

One cannot apply belief in the Eucharistic Lord as apostate. Nor can one label our priesthood as false or corrupt because the priests are sacraments and provide us the Eucharist.
 
To further expand on the divine nature of the Eucharist vs the Mormon use of ‘burning in the bosom’ as the method to discern whether inspiration is from the Lord or not, the Catholic understanding of Christ on the road to Emmaus, here Jesus again is showing that He is the Bread of Life.

The Lord opens Scripture for them…‘and beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.’ The Lord stayed with them into the evening, and then he completed his visitation by the breaking of the bread, taking bread, blessing it, and giving it to them.

The road to Emmaus is not about discerning new ideas through the use of emotive feeling of the heart. Instead, this visit is akin to the time we are in union with Christ at the Mass. We begin our liturgy with the Liturgy of the Word, the Old Testament, the Psalms – spirituality of the Scriptures, then the New Testament readings – the Epistles, Acts, and Revelations. The priest reads the Gospel and gives us teachings in Christ of today’s readings. Then the Mass continues into the Liturgy of the Eucharist…so that the Word becomes Flesh through Jesus to us, in spirit and life.

Finally, in light of the Mormon quest to build a temple in the countryside surrounding Rome, again I take liberty to share the description of the Mass in Rome written around the year 155 AD, documented by St Justin the Martyr, a former pagan, for Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius. St. Justin the Martyr was later beheaded in 165 AD.
Code:
                                           Sunday Mass in Rome (155  AD)
“On the day called Sunday, all who live in the cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the apostles are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has finished, the president instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgiving, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”;
and there is a distribution to each of the eucharistic elements. the deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.”

“Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are imprisoned, strangers traveling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.”

“Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day, on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration.” St. Justin the Martyr

We as Catholics have never tithed or paid 10% into the collection basket. However, we are to support our Church in whatever way possible, the spirit of liberality continuing as it was back in St. Justin’s time.
 
If you could use the quote tags, it would help make replying to you easier…
God knew/knows that people will sin. However, He promised His Church would endure under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No rascally person can trump that!
The key to enduring under guidance of the Holy Spirit, is that people have to be guided. God does not force anyone if they choose not to.
Then did the Holy Spirit leave the earth after the last apostle died?
If so, where is it stated and when did the Holy Spirit return?
I am assuming you mean the LDS church when you say His church? He promised to stay with The Church He established with Peter, not Joseph Smith.
The Holy Spirit did not leave the earth, I beleive there were many people throughout history that felt the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
And I do believe that the LDS church is a restoration of the early church.
Yes, free will, along with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit = people doing their best to keep the Church going…
That free will works both ways though.
So Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith? Do Mormons consider it the Second Coming then?
Jesus and the Father both appeared to Joseph Smith.
No we do not consider it the 2nd coming. His 2nd coming will be unmistakeable and in glory and power.
So do we! Remember, what’s good for the goose is good for gander.
If you had early church members/leaders who left and who disagreed, then your church was in apostasy. I have read scores of accounts of early Mormon church leaders reprimanding their members.
So, what’s the difference between the early Catholic Church and the early Mormon Church?
Name the apostles that lived during the 2nd century…3rd century…and so on. The diffrence is, we still have apostles and prophets, where as you reject them as unnecessary.
What do you mean by the Apostles did not continue? Do you mean live forever?
He didn’t and to say He did is very serious, my friend. Jesus was not a liar or a failure.
I mean that the office of Apostle was discontinued. It was the office of the Apostle that was given authority of leadership for the church as a whole.
 
Fly…

How does the Mormon Church resemble the Catholic Church at the time of St. Justin the Martyr???
 
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