LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Javl]

I disagree. The Lord recognized early on that the people would have difficulty staying true.

Now the Lord did not say: “there are individuals that turned away from me”…He stated the “People” turned away.
To turn away from God is apostasy. It is not just being hard-hearted or stubborn, but it is apostasy. There were individuals that remained true, but the majority apostasized.
The Lord wanted to get heavy handed right there, but Moses convinced Him not to, so He gave them the opportunity to repent and get back on track.

In Deuteronomy they are reminded about that again:
Notice the Lord wanted to destroy them right then and there. This is describing apostasy. Every time they apostasized, the Lord gave them a chance to return.
It was because of their stubborness that they apostasized so many times.
When enough individuals apostasize, the people, or the nation is held accountable

Yes, in those days the Hebrews ( not Jews ) may have apostacized, but not as a whole. God did punish those that did. There were many that still remained true to Him.

And again, please learn that the Hebrews after that time never apostacized. They may have shown infidelity, stubborness and pride, but they never left the worship of God. If the Jews did apostacize as a community ( nation ) they would no longer be God’s Chosen nor exist as a nation any longer. Please read and learn the history of the Hebrews ( Jews ) and their relationship with God. Read especially Philo, Josephus, and Clio, you have much to learn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

No. We do not claim any place above Jesus. The Judaic or Aaronic priesthood is a subset of the Melchizedeck Priesthood.
Obviously the Melchizedek Priesthood did not belong to Jesus alone as Melchizedek held it thousands of years before Jesus’ mortal ministry.
Remember that it was with the change of the law came the change of priesthood. The same was true when the Law of Moses was instituted, only instead of getting the greater part(Melchizedek), they received the lesser part, which became known as the Aaronic priesthood.
The Aaronic priesthood is for the temporal ordinances. The Melchizedek priesthood is for the spiritual ordinances.

Jesus is far superior to Melchizedek. Also, as a man, he is far superior to all the temple priests as would be Melchizedek. Therefore, Melchizedek ( whose position would be recognized and understood by all ) is used as a reference for comparison. Since The Old Law and all before it were nailed to the cross with Jesus, and since The Old Law no longer exists ( for all Christians ) and since there is no longer a temple, there is no longer a need for any of the “Aaronic” ( Levitical ) and/or “Melchizedekian” priesthood. All was abolished by Christ, therefore the LDS is placing itself above Him by re-instituting them.

Would I be correct if I understood you to be stating that the priesthood of the Catholic church is neither the Aaronic nor Melchizedek?

Yes you are correct. The priesthood of all the Eastern and Western Churches were instituted by Jesus when He established His Church. This is a true and real priesthood.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[onenow1]

It would seem thinkers are a thing that is dying out Rebecca, Jesus descended to the dead where the indigenous peoples of good will, in all countries were taken with Jesus up to the Father as was the thief on the cross. Of course these are my thoughts that seem proper.

God Bless

 

[flyonthewall]

Instead of Jewish apostasy, the better term would be infidelity.

Apostasy deals with willful rejection of a belief system. With the Jewish people, theirs is not only a belief system but a way of life, with their own unique history, that is passed on to each generation.

What would be the difference? If they turn away from the Lord and begin idolatry, isn’t that a rejection of the belief system?

 

[flyonthewall]

Fly…

If this was the case as you describe it, why was there still a splintering into several branches after the death of JS? Why was there turmoil?

This was new to all those involved. There were a few people that thought the next president of the Church should have been one of Joseph’s sons or relatives. Some thought that they, themselves should be the next president. And each had their own following.
With any passing of a leader, especially in a new organization, there will be those that rush in to fill the void, but it is the Lord the selects His own prophet, and that was Brigham Young

Could BY been possessed by JS?

Naw, just a heavenly manifestation of who the mantle would go to.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, in those days the Hebrews ( not Jews ) may have apostacized, but not as a whole. God did punish those that did. There were many that still remained true to Him.

And again, please learn that the Hebrews after that time never apostacized. They may have shown infidelity, stubborness and pride, but they never left the worship of God. If the Jews did apostacize as a community ( nation ) they would no longer be God’s Chosen nor exist as a nation any longer. Please read and learn the history of the Hebrews ( Jews ) and their relationship with God. Read especially Philo, Josephus, and Clio, you have much to learn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Jeremiah 7 is but one example of Jewish apostasy(read the whole chapter):

14Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.

15And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.

Whenever Israel or Judah apostasized they were cut off or cast off.
Perhaps what you term “infidelity” matches what I say is apostasy. To me, infidelity is the same thing as it is a turning away from the Lord and His statutes.

 

[flyonthewall]

Jesus is far superior to Melchizedek. Also, as a man, he is far superior to all the temple priests as would be Melchizedek. Therefore, Melchizedek ( whose position would be recognized and understood by all ) is used as a reference for comparison. Since The Old Law and all before it were nailed to the cross with Jesus, and since The Old Law no longer exists ( for all Christians ) and since there is no longer a temple, there is no longer a need for any of the “Aaronic” ( Levitical ) and/or “Melchizedekian” priesthood. All was abolished by Christ, therefore the LDS is placing itself above Him by re-instituting them.

This is your understanding. Here is mine:

There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood.
2Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.
3Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Yes you are correct. The priesthood of all the Eastern and Western Churches were instituted by Jesus when He established His Church. This is a true and real priesthood.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored to Joseph by the hands of Peter, James, and John, who received it from Jesus Christ, so we too, claim the real and true Priesthood of God.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

Yes, in those days the Hebrews ( not Jews ) may have apostacized, but not as a whole. God did punish those that did. There were many that still remained true to Him.

And again, please learn that the Hebrews after that time never apostacized. They may have shown infidelity, stubborness and pride, but they never left the worship of God. If the Jews did apostacize as a community ( nation ) they would no longer be God’s Chosen nor exist as a nation any longer. Please read and learn the history of the Hebrews ( Jews ) and their relationship with God. Read especially Philo, Josephus, and Clio, you have much to learn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Historical/Biblical question. Assuming maybe they did stop apostatizing at some point.

Was not the covenant of the lord extended to all 12 tribes of Israel, the people of the tribe of Judah(Jews) being just one? Jews and Judaism as we know it descend from this tribe.

Biblically and historically there is alot of debate about the lost 10 tribes. Did they travel or were the assimilated or were they simply destroyed? Probably a combination of all 3, this is why many indigenous not recognized as Jewish people in the Near East have hebrew/jewish/israelite/whateveryouwanttocallit genes.

But I would suppose that the reason the ten tribes were “lost” is because of apostasy, and as I said earlier, we know that many times these tribes rejected monotheism etc and were ultimately conquered.

The Jews shared a common heritage with these other Israelites in that they were gods chosen. I don’t believe it was just the tribe of Judah. Correct me if I am wrong.

So the Lord did literally allow a large amount of his chosen people to be punished and disappear- I would suggest due to apostasy in the context of this thread. In reality, I have no idea.

One thing I know for sure, is that Christ has never disassembled 85 percent of the Catholic Church, but maybe that will not happen until His coming? Doubtful…

I think anybody arguing the Catholic CHurch went apostate would have to convince me why it has been so benevolent and thrived under the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

And even though many Ancient Christian CHurches have been persecuted and under attack throughout the ages, See the Byzantines, they still exist.

 

[Javl]

From reading these posts it seems that the LDS and others know nothing about Hebrew/Jewish history. I have tried to explain but the LDS is so fixated on what they believe supports their position ( and whatever other fantasy they have created on the subject ) that they not only refuse to understand but reject outright what is historical. Not everything is in the Bible. Read history and learn. Until then I will no longer continue discussion on this subject.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

As Javl said, you have to study Jewish history and culture. And Judaism and being Jewish are so enmeshed.

Apostasy means accepting a creed and then rejecting it. With Judaism, you don’t have clear boundaries so to speak. Yes, the Jewish people did break the Law…just as Moses came down from Mt Sinai with the Tablets…and when he saw the idolatry, he threw the tablets down to the ground, the Law broken. Only in Jesus would the Law be fulfilled.

You note in salvation history the times Israel has fallen away, how the Lord laments and waits for her return…it happened a number of times…but all in the perspective of their mission to bring forth the Messiah to the world.

Then in time, the Christian Jews had to take a back seat so to speak to the Gentiles so they could enter in. Now we are seeing the return of prominence of the Hebrew Catholics…who now accept Christ as Savior and Messiah but wanting to bring back their Hebrew roots and incorporate them back into the Church for us as well.

There is a time now, it is only at the beginning…of the ingrafting of the Church with the Hebrew Catholics. They have a series going on Israel and the Church that you can download…it is something I want to study, but have limited time. They explain how they began to see the Church in various images of the Old Testament. They say they are now more Jewish in Christ’s Church than ever before. And there are those of us who are beginning to experience ourselves as fulfilled Jews.

This week is the week of prayer for Christian Unity. Our Christianity in America is so extremely fractured.

You come across as a very good and sincere person to me, and I am praying for the Mormons and all Christians that we will all become one in the Lord in this beginning time of the ingrafting to the Olive Tree…Jesus, the Tree of Life.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

As Javl said, you have to study Jewish history and culture. And Judaism and being Jewish are so enmeshed.

Apostasy means accepting a creed and then rejecting it. With Judaism, you don’t have clear boundaries so to speak. Yes, the Jewish people did break the Law…just as Moses came down from Mt Sinai with the Tablets…and when he saw the idolatry, he threw the tablets down to the ground, the Law broken. Only in Jesus would the Law be fulfilled.

You note in salvation history the times Israel has fallen away, how the Lord laments and waits for her return…it happened a number of times…but all in the perspective of their mission to bring forth the Messiah to the world.

Then in time, the Christian Jews had to take a back seat so to speak to the Gentiles so they could enter in. Now we are seeing the return of prominence of the Hebrew Catholics…who now accept Christ as Savior and Messiah but wanting to bring back their Hebrew roots and incorporate them back into the Church for us as well.

There is a time now, it is only at the beginning…of the ingrafting of the Church with the Hebrew Catholics. They have a series going on Israel and the Church that you can download…it is something I want to study, but have limited time. They explain how they began to see the Church in various images of the Old Testament. They say they are now more Jewish in Christ’s Church than ever before. And there are those of us who are beginning to experience ourselves as fulfilled Jews.

This week is the week of prayer for Christian Unity. Our Christianity in America is so extremely fractured.

You come across as a very good and sincere person to me, and I am praying for the Mormons and all Christians that we will all become one in the Lord in this beginning time of the ingrafting to the Olive Tree…Jesus, the Tree of Life.

I am getting the feeling that “apostasy” holds a little different meaning to me than it does for others.
When the Israelites turned to idolatry, that is apostasy. Every time the Israelites fell away, that was apostasy. Apostasy is not necessarily a permanent state, but a state that can be gone into and come back from…such as is recorded in the scriptures.
Apostasy is the reason prophets were sent in the OT to call the people to repentance and to return to the Lord.

It sounds like you are speaking of the gathering of Israel, which I do believe is going on right now.

I thank you for your prayers…I can use all the help I can get.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

Flyonthewall,

Then in time, the Christian Jews had to take a back seat so to speak to the Gentiles so they could enter in. Now we are seeing the return of prominence of the Hebrew Catholics…who now accept Christ as Savior and Messiah but wanting to bring back their Hebrew roots and incorporate them back into the Church for us as well.

There is a time now, it is only at the beginning…of the ingrafting of the Church with the Hebrew Catholics. They have a series going on Israel and the Church that you can download…it is something I want to study, but have limited time. They explain how they began to see the Church in various images of the Old Testament. They say they are now more Jewish in Christ’s Church than ever before. And there are those of us who are beginning to experience ourselves as fulfilled Jews.

This doesn’t seem to make much sense and sounds like the product of a sect…

For Instance:
"There is a time now, it is only at the beginning…of the ingrafting of the Church with the Hebrew Catholics. "

By Definition, Wouldn’t Hebrew Catholics already be in the One, True Church, fully ingrafted? Peter was a Hebrew Catholic… I have never heard these types of distinctions made and quite frankly, they scare me.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pax…my first impression…

Are you a traditionalist?

Have you visited their site? They are fully endorsed and established under the Archbishop of St. Louis, Missouri. Rosalind Ross, who is Jewish, and was a former evangelical Christian, came into the Catholic Church. Rosalind is now founding her own women religious congregation. The Association is comprised of a number of recognized and prominent scholars of Catholic faith.

They understand Sacred Scriptures from their own ethnicity…and we miss nuances known only to them. Some say they chuckle at hearing the Gospel…seeing scenarios pass over the heads of Gentile Catholics…because they can already envision the debate…They say where there are 2 Jews, you have 3 people debating.

The site also explains why they chose to use the name Hebrew rather than Jewish. Hebrew has been the name of those faithful and devout to God throughout their history.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

In spite of their sins or lack of faith, and their present disbelief of Christ as Savior and Messiah of the world, the Jews are always going to be God’s chosen people.

We owe them great respect for their own history of triumphs and failures that brought forth God’s authorship as a guide in learning our faithwalk, of common humanity, of God always there, of the wisdom found in Proverbs, the spirituality of the Psalms and most of all Christ, Our Lord and Savior.

When the fullness of Gentiles comes to pass…the veil will be lifted…and it is the Hebrew Catholics conviction that the Jews will be of great help and restoration to the Gentile faith.
I see that already…and still look to John Paul II in his great help in building bridges with the Jewish believers. He himself was personally responsible for saving many Jewish lives from the Nazis.

So the Jews not accepting Christ at this time is not apostasy.

Remember the Jews practicing idolatry…but then they repented through Moses. By the time Christ’s time came, the Jewish religion was going through its own great crisis of faith and the law.

 

[Stephen168]

This is your understanding. Here is mine:

The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored to Joseph by the hands of Peter, James, and John, who received it from Jesus Christ, so we too, claim the real and true Priesthood of God.

There are a few problems with Smith’s story
You cannot ‘retore’ something which never existed and Cowdry, who was with Smith at the time, said it was a “Holy Angel” It was also written many years after the fact; the same year he invented ‘Mormon apostles’ and reworked a few of his earlier ‘revelation.’

The Catholic Church has its priesthood authority directly from Christ, a historical fact.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fly…

Likewise, as we cannot wipe off the Jews and call them apostate, we cannot wipe out Christianity and call it apostate.

 

[Javl]

This doesn’t seem to make much sense and sounds like the product of a sect…

For Instance:
"There is a time now, it is only at the beginning…of the ingrafting of the Church with the Hebrew Catholics. "

By Definition, Wouldn’t Hebrew Catholics already be in the One, True Church, fully ingrafted? Peter was a Hebrew Catholic… I have never heard these types of distinctions made and quite frankly, they scare me.

I don’t know why it should scare you since a Hebrew Catholic is a Catholic. I assume that you are Catholic and as such you should know that the Catholic Church is a fullfillment and completion of Judaism. Just about all our Liturgy is based on Hebrew ( Judaic ) ritual and prayer.

In the Church Hebrew Catholics retain their Hebraic and cultural identity much as the Eastern Catholic Churches ( in communion with Rome ) retain theirs. Before, if a Hebrew ( or Jew ) became a Catholic, he/she had to give up their Hebraic identity. Not so anymore. Popes John Paul II and Bendict XVI corrected ( and apologized ) for the most grievous and unwarranted transgression against the Hebrews, that is blaming them all, regardless, for killing Jesus.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[pablope]

This was new to all those involved. There were a few people that thought the next president of the Church should have been one of Joseph’s sons or relatives. Some thought that they, themselves should be the next president. And each had their own following.
With any passing of a leader, especially in a new organization, there will be those that rush in to fill the void, but it is the Lord the selects His own prophet, and that was Brigham Young

Naw, just a heavenly manifestation of who the mantle would go to.

Unwittingly, Fly, you just described what happens to a religion that is man-made and not from the one true God, when its founder leaves this world. Look at the competing claims for leadership…this demonstrates selfishness, earthly desire, a lack of humility and no guidance from the true Holy Spirit. Where is the unity? Where is the concern to serve the flock?

With any passing of a leader, especially in a new organization, there will be those that rush in to fill the void,

Very true indeed for a religion without the guidance of the true Holy Spirit, and only happens to man-made ones. If it was really the Lord who selected the next leader, how come the original LDS splintered? It should not have, everyone should have accepted the leader, in all humility and rallied behind the chosen one.

Naw, just a heavenly manifestation of who the mantle would go to

As for your statement that BY seemed to have been a manifestation of JS, seems more like divination or the occult to me. Sorry to say it.

 

[KathleenGee]

I finally want to add for the many who have come to this thread, that people must have greater sense and desire to protect themselves from error, from intimidation, from threats of hell of not joining this group or that group, follow this leader or that leader.

People are on much safer spiritual and psychiatric ground to remain within verifiable, reasonable beliefs systems. It is telling when one is continually turning over every stone so to speak to validate one’s beliefs that America is the home of the lost tribe of America, when in fact, from archaeological and anthropological studies, the mounds here are reflective of Indian culture, not Jewish.

One is spending alot of time trying to find substance to support such claims. The Jewish people know their own people, their own unique history, and nobody else can transcribe or overlay their identity with unproven claims. Furthermore, to do so is in itself invalidating their integrity of faith, culture and ethnicity.

The same goes for Christianity. You cannot literally wipe off Christianity with vague references from Scripture and attribute them to invalidating this great religion. In fact, Christianity is more than a religion, it is the belief in Jesus Christ, His faith and Church He imparted to us a long time ago.

Alot happened, good and bad, in these past 2000 years, and some times people are products of their time. But faith in Christ always perseveres and overcomes. There have been so many remarkable priests and religious the Mormons know nothing about.

I don’t think Joseph Smith knew Catholics and had hardly any contact with them.

But I still think the foundation of Mormonism is anti-Catholic more than anything. It refuses to use any Bible Catholics use. Its posture is still a subtle form of rejection of our faith, teachings, and sacraments that have been in use 2000 years.

False teachers scare their members from thinking and going deeper into their faith, and warn them something will happen.

If a person is challenging one’s faith for the purpose of seeking truth and answering ongoing and deep inner questions, that is a good sign that the person is being led by God.

For those who question and see contradictions by leaders of their own sects and belief systems…keep searching…follow the Holy Spirit and pray to be set free of false concepts and fear.

 

[flyonthewall]

Unwittingly, Fly, you just described what happens to a religion that is man-made and not from the one true God, when its founder leaves this world. Look at the competing claims for leadership…this demonstrates selfishness, earthly desire, a lack of humility and no guidance from the true Holy Spirit. Where is the unity? Where is the concern to serve the flock?

Very true indeed for a religion without the guidance of the true Holy Spirit, and only happens to man-made ones. If it was really the Lord who selected the next leader, how come the original LDS splintered? It should not have, everyone should have accepted the leader, in all humility and rallied behind the chosen one.

As for your statement that BY seemed to have been a manifestation of JS, seems more like divination or the occult to me. Sorry to say it.

Yes, and Paul described the exact same thing happening in the church after he left. So if you want to use that as evidence or proof of lacking the Holy Spirit, the Catholic church falls into the same problem.

Ah, you say it seems like divination or the occult for that type of heavenly manifestation to occur…careful there, the day of pentacost falls into the same category.