LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[flyonthewall]

Timothy, you are true seeker of truth. I commend you for your honesty and diligence in regard to this.

The patriarchs were not infallible and neither were the kings. These oral stories redacted by the Jews into the Torah remind us, as they reminded the ancient Jews, that even god’s favored individuals and tribes can stray or be misled.

You very poignantly express the lessons to be learned through these stories, or history if you will.

A wrong or immoral action committed by a leader or forefather or the circumstances surrounding it do not justify the immoral action in any way. Not only have we seen misconstruction of the stories, they try to change the purpose of the passages where they no longer serve as lessons in what sins to avoid, but to justify their sins.

FYI. The discussion about the Patriarchs are not an attempt to justify sins, but to illustrate the double standards that are used to condemn us.
Our stance is that plural marriage is allowed by God under certain circumstances, but not in practice all the time. When the Lord disallows it, it is a sin to practice it…as it is now.
It was allowed by God with the Patriarchs so they were not sinful in their practice of it. It was allowed with David and Solomon. Their condemnation came not with plural marriage, but with disobedience to God’s commands.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

FYI. The discussion about the Patriarchs are not an attempt to justify sins, but to illustrate the double standards that are used to condemn us.
Our stance is that plural marriage is allowed by God under certain circumstances, but not in practice all the time. When the Lord disallows it, it is a sin to practice it…as it is now.
It was allowed by God with the Patriarchs so they were not sinful in their practice of it. It was allowed with David and Solomon. Their condemnation came not with plural marriage, but with disobedience to God’s commands.

It seems like you are using the patriarchs’ conduct to justify your theology. The kings lived 3000 years ago. They were not infallible. So how do you know when the lord allows it?

Zerinus has previously said that polygamy is “good theology”, but the US law overrides your theology because the Church respects law and order of your country. The US is a Judeo-Christian nation- this is why polygamy is outlawed.

So, is it god disallowing polygamy or the LDS church leadership under pressure of the US? Zerinus did not say it was the lord. He said it was the circumstances in which the LDS find themselves in the United States.

Please clarify.

 

[flyonthewall]

It seems like you are using the patriarchs’ conduct to justify your theology. The kings lived 3000 years ago. They were not infallible. So how do you know when the lord allows it?

Very simple. The Lord will inform His prophet.

Zerinus has previously said that polygamy is “good theology”, but the US law overrides your theology because the Church respects law and order of your country. The US is a Judeo-Christian nation- this is why polygamy is outlawed.

US law does not override our theology, obedience to our nations laws are part of our theology.

So, is it god disallowing polygamy or the LDS church leadership under pressure of the US? Zerinus did not say it was the lord. He said it was the circumstances in which the LDS find themselves in the United States.

Please clarify.

It was both. Plural marriage was commanded before there were laws against it. We practiced it as the Lord directed while we could, but when laws were passed against it, the Lord saw that we were still willing to obey Him rather than the laws of the land.

49Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

How could the work of the Lord continue if the Temples would be confiscated and the oridincances in them stopped? We believe the work in the temples are the fulfillment of Malachi 4:6
Now we believe that plural marriage is a valid practice when allowed, but it is not a required practice, that is, not everyone is required to practice it.
That God no longer required it, did not change one bit of our doctrine, only the practice of it. We still teach celestial marriage, that did not change.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

So you have restored polygamy as a theology because the lord has informed his prophet. Wasn’t the purpose of the prophet to restore Jesus Christ’s church and play a different role than all of the other apostate churches??

Yet you fall right in line with the majority of christian nations and churches that disallow polygamy.

Kind of undermines your argument of restoration, in my opinion. Especially considering how prevalent it seemed to be in the early years.

" US law does not override our theology, obedience to our nations laws are part of our theology."

Maybe one day you can change the laws.

“How could the work of the Lord continue if the Temples would be confiscated and the oridincances in them stopped?”

The lord works in mysterious ways actually. The catholic church underwent hundreds of years of persecution, but the guiding hand of the holy spirit kept it as if it was the true church of Jesus.

 

[Stephen168]

With the breaking up of the original LDS at the death of JSmith, so which one is the true LDS? Which one inherited the so called priesthood and keys from Smith? It seems that you are stating that the LDS is itself in apostasy since nobody can say which is the true LDS that can trace is lineage from JS?

The Mormon “Apostles” did not have the Mormon ‘keys’ until after Joseph Smith’s death when Brigham Young claimed they had them. The Brighamites started to change doctrine like inventing blood atonement and teaching that Adam was God. I think it is clear using Mormon logic that Brigham Young was an Apostate and his group does not have the keys.

 

[Stephen168]

If they knew they went into apostasy, the record keepers would have made a note of it, but since they weren’t aware of it, why would they mark a date?

The missing records fantasy.
So you are saying that Judaism went into Apostasy and didn’t know it. You believe that the passage in Amos predicting ‘Gods word will not be heard’ has already happened but you don’t know when even; though Jews are still teaching the word of God. Interesting.

And still haven’t explained how the Mormon Church could possibly lose its authority; because you know it can’t happen; therefore it never happened in all of Christianity. There never was an Apostasy and the Mormon Church can never prove this fiction.

The doctrine was celestial marriage, plural marriage was one way to practice it. When the Lord put an end to plural marriage, to continue with it was against the will of the Lord.

Christ put an end to plural marriage and Mormons continued against his will

 

[GregCynaumon]

To know how bible really does hide secrets or mysteries on unlockingbiblesecrets.com, and find six life-changing videos reveal with the secrets to lasting happiness.

bible happiness

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

A reminder…do not respond to spammers, just report them.
Thanks,

 

[flyonthewall]

So you have restored polygamy as a theology because the lord has informed his prophet. Wasn’t the purpose of the prophet to restore Jesus Christ’s church and play a different role than all of the other apostate churches??

There is always a purpose to the things the Lord does and plural marriage was part of that purpose.

Yet you fall right in line with the majority of christian nations and churches that disallow polygamy.

Kind of undermines your argument of restoration, in my opinion. Especially considering how prevalent it seemed to be in the early years.

Just exactly how prevelant do you think it was? I will tell you that the majority of the church did not practice it.

Maybe one day you can change the laws.

It does not matter now, as the Lord has forbidden it.

The lord works in mysterious ways actually. The catholic church underwent hundreds of years of persecution, but the guiding hand of the holy spirit kept it as if it was the true church of Jesus.

Well, that is part of the subject of this thread

 

[flyonthewall]

The missing records fantasy.
So you are saying that Judaism went into Apostasy and didn’t know it. You believe that the passage in Amos predicting ‘Gods word will not be heard’ has already happened but you don’t know when even; though Jews are still teaching the word of God. Interesting.

So then the Jews are the true religion then…? They are still teaching the word of God, yet they pre-date Catholicism by thousands of years…so they are the true religion of God? Do you think the Jews realize they are in apostasy? They rejected the Son of God yet you do not recognize they are apostate?
Whoa. Let me take that in…there is a lot said in your words.

And still haven’t explained how the Mormon Church could possibly lose its authority; because you know it can’t happen; therefore it never happened in all of Christianity. There never was an Apostasy and the Mormon Church can never prove this fiction.

I have already responded to your question about the LDS church losing the authority…the keys will not be taken from the earth again. These are the last days. We don’t have to prove an apostasy. The evidence is there and people come to that realization. It is up to the Holy Spirit to prove matters of faith.

Christ put an end to plural marriage and Mormons continued against his will

A claim based on your own understanding of things.

 

[flyonthewall]

The Mormon “Apostles” did not have the Mormon ‘keys’ until after Joseph Smith’s death when Brigham Young claimed they had them. The Brighamites started to change doctrine like inventing blood atonement and teaching that Adam was God. I think it is clear using Mormon logic that Brigham Young was an Apostate and his group does not have the keys.

You demonstrate that your knowledge of our faith is in error. The keys were given to the 12 Apostles under Joseph Smith.
Blood atonement and Adam/God theory has been answered many times. All you have to do is look for the responses from the LDS church to find out about them.

 

[KathleenGee]

I checked out the article by Parker on the alleged Jewish/Indian mounds here in the heartland…and the concept of such a site and its design has absolutely no reflection on the mentality of the Jewish mindset.

Judaism is not apostate. Judaism is the foundation of true religion, and it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

St. Paul said that the Lord hardened the hearts of the Jews so that the Gentiles might be saved. The coming of faith by the Jews to finally acknowledge Christ as Messiah and Savior is reserved for the latter days.

Apostasy is the rejection of Judeo-apostolic Christian faith. It is Mormonism that is apostate because it rejects all of Christianity and reinterprets Judaism for its own means.

Check out www.hebrewcatholic.org or www.salvationcomesfromthejews.com.

There is already a movement within Catholicism of the ingrafting between the Hebrew Catholics – not ‘Jewish’ as that denotes political…where Hebrew is the name of the devout Jews faithful to God…the ingrafting of Hebrew and Catholic believers onto one tree, Jesus Christ. Their eyes were opened and they not only came to recognize Christ, but the Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

I checked out the article by Parker on the alleged Jewish/Indian mounds here in the heartland…and the concept of such a site and its design has absolutely no reflection on the mentality of the Jewish mindset.

Judaism is not apostate. Judaism is the foundation of true religion, and it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

St. Paul said that the Lord hardened the hearts of the Jews so that the Gentiles might be saved. The coming of faith by the Jews to finally acknowledge Christ as Messiah and Savior is reserved for the latter days.

Apostasy is the rejection of Judeo-apostolic Christian faith. It is Mormonism that is apostate because it rejects all of Christianity and reinterprets Judaism for its own means.

Check out www.hebrewcatholic.org or www.salvationcomesfromthejews.com.

There is already a movement within Catholicism of the ingrafting between the Hebrew Catholics – not ‘Jewish’ as that denotes political…where Hebrew is the name of the devout Jews faithful to God…the ingrafting of Hebrew and Catholic believers onto one tree, Jesus Christ. Their eyes were opened and they not only came to recognize Christ, but the Church.

I can see that the whole problem with Mormonism vs Judaism or Catholicism is that your critical, scholarly, and documentation support in proving Mormon claims just is not there. Our faith always refers to actual events in context of the gathering of the people and our history of salvation.

Scripture quotes, phrases, specific events…do not stand on their own. If done, they are taken out of the context of the reality they were meant to convey. That is the problem with Mormonism and breakaway Protestant communities.

Sacred Scripture is the history of faith in God and His relation with us. The whole, the entirety. True understanding of faith always leads us to unity and common faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also found that quote from Fr Richard Rohr’s “Daily Meditations”…in reference to plurality of Gods, of progression and exaltation of the man to earn his way to divinity in Mormonism – if I understand it correctly.

                                                    'Contemplative Prayer

Question of the Day:

How do I know when I am transformed?

Paul uses a wonderful and telling phrase: “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). It is a radically different sense of self that he is trying to describe. Until I have come to that realization myself, I have not been transformed, spiritually speaking.

Contemplative prayer draws us to or True Self, who we are “hidden with Christ in God” as Paul says in Colossians 3:3. This is the only self that actually exists. We came forth from God and our deepest DNA is divine. We are not human beings trying to become spiritual; we are already spiritual beings and the profound question is always, “What does it mean to be human?” I believe that is why Jesus came as a human being and consistently called himself a " son of man" more than the Son of God.’

We have this component – our very essence of each one of us being a uniquely created human being, having inherited characteristics from our own parents here on earth, and as Fr Rohr says, this DNA…that makes us divine.

But how do we live out that essence of ourselves…that divine part of ourselves? Do we want to exalt ourselves? Do we want to have power over other people? Do we want money and prestige? Are these desires really Godly, divine in ourselves?

This month in the Catholic and Protestant churches we are celebrating the Sanctity of Human Life…do the Mormons share this time with us???..After attending a Pro Life rally in our state, I went to Mass that evening and also remembering this reflection of Fr Rohr’s. For the Old Testament readings, we reflected on the psalm that says that the Lord knew us before we were born, and that He made us to serve.

So our DNA, if it is truly based on the divine, shows itself not by lording over others, but we are most godly when we serve one another. It is not a sign of God when we use His sacred Word to divine and oppose or invalidate our living faith, in spite of the chaff,…we look to the faith of wheat…the seed that must die before it can live and bear good fruit.

We die to ourselves in Christ and are restored by Him.

The restoration began with our baptism with Jesus Christ. It is like baptism and the purifying waters ‘turn on’ the divine spiritual component and we become alive.

You cannot condemn or judge an entire faith as Catholicism because of unfaithful clerics or lay. Doing so you are turning a blind eye to the silent, invisible majority who are faithful, as pride boasts, but true virtue wants to hide itself.

You can’t say the apostasy gradually happened within Catholicism when our teachings and practices and form of worship have been basically universal and the same for 2,000 years. This consistency and endurance of faith is the sign that it is not a man made religion but that Christ Himself is our foundation, and the Holy Spirit protects and directs our fidelity to faith.

 

[Stephen168]

Blood atonement and Adam/God theory has been answered many times. All you have to do is look for the responses from the LDS church to find out about them.

They were taught by Brigham Young

The keys were given to the 12 Apostles under Joseph Smith.

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.

By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

 

[Stephen168]

I have already responded to your question about the LDS church losing the authority…the keys will not be taken from the earth again. These are the last days. We don’t have to prove an apostasy. The evidence is there and people come to that realization. It is up to the Holy Spirit to prove matters of faith.

As I pointed out before, you may have responding to the question but you have not answered the question. But that is ok, you can’t answer it because you know an apostasy can’t happen; therefore it never happened in all of Christianity. I think you just summed it up; the Apostasy is a belief not a historical fact which is why you can’t prove it. Saying there is evidence is as hollow a claim as much as the claim there was an apostasy.

 

[pablope]

The true LDS are the ones who recognized Brigham Young as the next prophet.
FYI, the keys were given to the 12 Apostles, so when Joseph was murdered, the keys were not lost.
I am not stating that the LDS are in apostasy, but some groups did apostasize from us. Our records are clear, there is no question.

Um…we already have this list…it is called the 13 articles of faith
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

The question still is, by what right did BY claim to be the true successor to JS? And by what authority did those who recognized BY as the rightful successor? What was their basis? Actually those who you describe as in apostasy can also claim you LDS is the one in apostasy, so what will be your response to that?

The twisting of scriptures was done long before the LDS church came about. We merely un-twisted them.

Actually, from what I learned on this thread and other threads, the LDS made the twisting even worse, way way off tangent. Examples-1Cor 7, Phil 4:3; the account of abraham’s sojourn to Egypt…

 

[Javl]

Originally posted by flyonthewall

So then the Jews are the true religion then…? They are still teaching the word of God, yet they pre-date Catholicism by thousands of years…so they are the true religion of God? Do you think the Jews realize they are in apostasy? They rejected the Son of God yet you do not recognize they are apostate?

They can very well be since God has never denied them but has chastized them. Although they have denied the Son of God, Jesus, it does not mean that they are no longer in His favor. He has made a Covenant with them that He has not abrogated. Therefore, not only are they still His Chosen people, but they still worship Him in the same way as from the beginning. No matter what you say, they also did not apostacize. The LDS should study and learn not only about Christianity but Judaism also, and stop making such inane comments.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

They can very well be since God has never denied them but has chastized them. Although they have denied the Son of God, Jesus, it does not mean that they are no longer in His favor. He has made a Covenant with them that He has not abrogated. Therefore, not only are they still His Chosen people, but they still worship Him in the same way as from the beginning. No matter what you say, they also did not apostacize. The LDS should study and learn not only about Christianity but Judaism also, and stop making such inane comments.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Did the Jews who converted to Christianity apostatize?

 

[flyonthewall]

They were taught by Brigham Young

How many times did he teach them? He broached the subjects once maybe twice, but then never brought them up again.

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.

By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

Unfortunately your sources are incorrect. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles were intact by February 1835. D&C 107 will tell you the 12 were chosen and D&C 118 gives instruction to the 12, both are long before Joseph Smith was killed.
D&C 107 also gives the structure of authority within our church. Your understanding is incorrect. You might want to read up on the subject before you make more incorrect statements about the LDS church.