LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

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They can very well be since God has never denied them but has chastized them. Although they have denied the Son of God, Jesus, it does not mean that they are no longer in His favor. He has made a Covenant with them that He has not abrogated. Therefore, not only are they still His Chosen people, but they still worship Him in the same way as from the beginning. No matter what you say, they also did not apostacize. The LDS should study and learn not only about Christianity but Judaism also, and stop making such inane comments.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
I agree that the Jews, and the rest of the House of Israel are God’s chosen people, but even so they go astray.
To say that the Jews never apostasized is to reject all the prophets that were sent to bring them back. It was because of their apostasy that they were conquered and scattered.
Even so, God does and will remember them as He as promised to gather them again.
 
The question still is, by what right did BY claim to be the true successor to JS? And by what authority did those who recognized BY as the rightful successor? What was their basis? Actually those who you describe as in apostasy can also claim you LDS is the one in apostasy, so what will be your response to that?
The First Presidency, which consists of the Prophet and his two counselors are the governing body of the church. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles has equal authority with the First Presidency, but while the First Presidency is intact they hold the leadership of the Church. When the President dies, the First Presidency is disolved and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, becomes the leadership of the church.
The Quorum of the 12 selected Brigham Young as the next President of the church.
Also, "many Latter-day Saints claimed a further deciding factor: when Brigham Young spoke on August 8, his voice and appearance bore a striking resemblance to those of Joseph Smith. Wilford Woodruff, one who was present, later said that if “I had not seen him with my own eyes, there is no one that could have convinced me that it was not Joseph Smith”
You are right in that all the splinter groups can and do say we are the ones that went astray, and they are continuing to follow the truth. My response would be that, I would hope they would think that, otherwise there is no sense in continuing on in their faith. Though I would disagree with them.
Actually, from what I learned on this thread and other threads, the LDS made the twisting even worse, way way off tangent. Examples-1Cor 7, Phil 4:3; the account of abraham’s sojourn to Egypt…
You may think so, but I disagree.
 
How many times did he teach them? He broached the subjects once maybe twice, but then never brought them up again.
He taught them.
Unfortunately your sources are incorrect. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles were intact by February 1835. D&C 107 will tell you the 12 were chosen and D&C 118 gives instruction to the 12, both are long before Joseph Smith was killed.
D&C 107 also gives the structure of authority within our church. Your understanding is incorrect. You might want to read up on the subject before you make more incorrect statements about the LDS church.
Your references and I’ll add D&C 112 do not disagree with what I said.
To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.
 
The First Presidency, which consists of the Prophet and his two counselors are the governing body of the church. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles has equal authority with the First Presidency, but while the First Presidency is intact they hold the leadership of the Church. When the President dies, the First Presidency is disolved and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, becomes the leadership of the church.
This is what Young changed it to, not how it was when Smith was alive. Brigham took the leadership away from Sidney but he didn’t have the keys. You can tell by the change Brigham Young made in Doctrine.
 
He taught them.

Your references and I’ll add D&C 112 do not disagree with what I said.
It does disagree because the 12 Apostles most certainly do hold the keys of the Prietshood.
The Quorum of the 12 Apostles were missionaries because they were sent forth, but if you read what I referred to, you would have known that the Quorum of the 12 have equal authority as the First Presidency, which means they are not ONLY over missionary work
This is what Young changed it to, not how it was when Smith was alive. Brigham took the leadership away from Sidney but he didn’t have the keys. You can tell by the change Brigham Young made in Doctrine.
Brigham Young did not change anything. D&C 107 lays out the structure and with the Quorum of the 12 holding the same authority as the First Presidency, it was put forth, by Joseph Smith that in the event something happens to the President, the Quorum of the 12 would lead the church until they select a new President.

The more you try and inform me about my church, the more obvious it becomes that you do not understand it as you think you do.
 
How do the Mormons know what they are taught is from God?

What criteria do Mormons use to discern truth from false?

Is discernment based on those polygamous, burning in the bosom founders???

I would say more is burning elsewhere…
 
Did the Jews who converted to Christianity apostatize?
According to the Rabbinical Jew the answer is yes. But, according to Christianity the answer is No. Christianity is a fullfillment and completion of Judaism.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I agree that the Jews, and the rest of the House of Israel are God’s chosen people, but even so they go astray.
To say that the Jews never apostasized is to reject all the prophets that were sent to bring them back. It was because of their apostasy that they were conquered and scattered.
Even so, God does and will remember them as He as promised to gather them again.
Individual Jews have apostacized but not the Jewish community or nation as a whole. The Jews still continue to obey The Law and still continue in their same prayers without any change. There is a big difference between stuborness, refusal, misunderstanding and apostacizing. The Jews were scattered because of their stuborness and “hardness of heart”, not because they apostacized. If they apostacized they would no longer be Jews or God’s Chosen People. An example are the Samaritans.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
flyonthewall:

I do not understand how the LDS can hold any Judaic priesthood since the Aaronic priesthood ( Levitical ) was abolished with Jesus being nailed to the cross and the Melchizedek priesthood belonging to Him alone. The LDS claims place themselves above Jesus.

As for the Catholic priesthood, which is the only true priesthood, this was requested, authorized, and conferred by Jesus Himself on the Apostles and their
succesors.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
La Dolce Vita!!

Have to watch out for Mormon men…if I were young…
 
Individual Jews have apostacized but not the Jewish community or nation as a whole. The Jews still continue to obey The Law and still continue in their same prayers without any change. There is a big difference between stuborness, refusal, misunderstanding and apostacizing. The Jews were scattered because of their stuborness and “hardness of heart”, not because they apostacized. If they apostacized they would no longer be Jews or God’s Chosen People. An example are the Samaritans.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
I disagree. The Lord recognized early on that the people would have difficulty staying true.
7¶And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Now the Lord did not say: “there are individuals that turned away from me”…He stated the “People” turned away.
To turn away from God is apostasy. It is not just being hard-hearted or stubborn, but it is apostasy. There were individuals that remained true, but the majority apostasized.
The Lord wanted to get heavy handed right there, but Moses convinced Him not to, so He gave them the opportunity to repent and get back on track.

In Deuteronomy they are reminded about that again:
7¶Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.
8Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you
Notice the Lord wanted to destroy them right then and there. This is describing apostasy. Every time they apostasized, the Lord gave them a chance to return.
It was because of their stubborness that they apostasized so many times.
When enough individuals apostasize, the people, or the nation is held accountable
 
flyonthewall:

I do not understand how the LDS can hold any Judaic priesthood since the Aaronic priesthood ( Levitical ) was abolished with Jesus being nailed to the cross and the Melchizedek priesthood belonging to Him alone. The LDS claims place themselves above Jesus.
No. We do not claim any place above Jesus. The Judaic or Aaronic priesthood is a subset of the Melchizedeck Priesthood.
Obviously the Melchizedek Priesthood did not belong to Jesus alone as Melchizedek held it thousands of years before Jesus’ mortal ministry.
Remember that it was with the change of the law came the change of priesthood. The same was true when the Law of Moses was instituted, only instead of getting the greater part(Melchizedek), they received the lesser part, which became known as the Aaronic priesthood.
The Aaronic priesthood is for the temporal ordinances. The Melchizedek priesthood is for the spiritual ordinances.
As for the Catholic priesthood, which is the only true priesthood, this was requested, authorized, and conferred by Jesus Himself on the Apostles and their succesors.
Would I be correct if I understood you to be stating that the priesthood of the Catholic church is neither the Aaronic nor Melchizedek?
 
I disagree. The Lord recognized early on that the people would have difficulty staying true.

Now the Lord did not say: “there are individuals that turned away from me”…He stated the “People” turned away.
To turn away from God is apostasy. It is not just being hard-hearted or stubborn, but it is apostasy. There were individuals that remained true, but the majority apostasized.
The Lord wanted to get heavy handed right there, but Moses convinced Him not to, so He gave them the opportunity to repent and get back on track.

In Deuteronomy they are reminded about that again:
Notice the Lord wanted to destroy them right then and there. This is describing apostasy. Every time they apostasized, the Lord gave them a chance to return.
It was because of their stubborness that they apostasized so many times.
When enough individuals apostasize, the people, or the nation is held accountable
I agree with you here and disagree with Javl, in a way… But I am no expert at all. Most of the Old Testament is dedicated to correcting the Israelites’ ways, educating and philosphizing. They are really the first apostatizers and they did it time and time again.

The tribe of Judah redacted the Torah in Babylon in 500 BC and really got their tribe back on track with Yahweh while many other Israelite tribes and individuals (Not all certainly) were still worshiping Asherah and rejecting monotheism etc until being conquered by Assyria in 750. There is archaeological proof of this.

Also see Chronicles 21;13
Douay-Rheims Bible
But hast walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and hast made Juda and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, imitating the fornication of the house of Achab, moreover also thou hast killed thy brethren, the house of thy father, better men than thyself,

Abraham developed a covenant with the Lord for the Jewish people and God has punished them and protected them at times including banishing the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to Babylon. Half of American Jews are Athesists or Agnostics, So I disagree that they are currently necessarily in god’s favor. They don;t say the same prayers etc… because they arn’t praying or worshipful at all. A non practicing Jew is still under the covenant…

But through extension, I do not believe that the Catholic Church has lost its priestly authority or apostatized for the same reasons the Jews are still a special people and are still in covenant with the lord.

The Catholic Church is still in Privity with the Lord, because the Lord created His Church for all nations and he would not abandon it, the same way that he would not abandon the Jews.
 
Instead of Jewish apostasy, the better term would be infidelity.

Apostasy deals with willful rejection of a belief system. With the Jewish people, theirs is not only a belief system but a way of life, with their own unique history, that is passed on to each generation.
 
All the references Mormons use to show that our faith is apostate or corrupt, does not add up. These references are so generalized, they can be pointed to Mormons as apostate.

The problems the Mormons are having is that they are giving us no event showing that the early apostolic church turned away and renounced the faith of the apostles. If it happened, it was with those defined by St. Irenaeus who opposed all heresy. Human beings were no different then than they are today, so he pretty much covered them all – way at the beginning of the early Church.

On the contrary the early church did its very best to insure that the teachings of the Apostles were indeed the only standard of belief in Christ, that Sacred Scripture was to retain the its entire context and focus on the gathering of people whose faith centered on God – not fractured individuals --, and that our Creed was defined – the Apostles Creed, and then the Nicene Creed because people were beginning to lose their faith in Christ as Man…the link to incorporate us into His Divine Life.

Everything we needed to be Christians was given to us at the very beginning.

If Christ is truly God, then that would make sense that He didn’t make a mistake. Instead, the problem is with those who dissent or look at the chaff and not the wheat.

We are to keep our eyes on all that is true, pure, holy. If we keep our eyes on the chaff, on the false, the opaque, the profane…our faith will begin to erode.
 
Would I be correct if I understood you to be stating that the priesthood of the Catholic church is neither the Aaronic nor Melchizedek?
Jesus Christ is God the High Priest and Catholic clergy share in his priesthood.
The Melchizedek Priesthood was an invention of Joseph Smith’s at about the same time he invented the Mormon apostles.
 
How many times did he teach them? He broached the subjects once maybe twice, but then never brought them up again.

Unfortunately your sources are incorrect. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles were intact by February 1835. D&C 107 will tell you the 12 were chosen and D&C 118 gives instruction to the 12, both are long before Joseph Smith was killed.
D&C 107 also gives the structure of authority within our church. Your understanding is incorrect. You might want to read up on the subject before you make more incorrect statements about the LDS church.
The First Presidency, which consists of the Prophet and his two counselors are the governing body of the church. The Quorum of the 12 Apostles has equal authority with the First Presidency, but while the First Presidency is intact they hold the leadership of the Church. When the President dies, the First Presidency is disolved and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, becomes the leadership of the church.
The Quorum of the 12 selected Brigham Young as the next President of the church.
Also, "many Latter-day Saints claimed a further deciding factor: when Brigham Young spoke on August 8, his voice and appearance bore a striking resemblance to those of Joseph Smith. Wilford Woodruff, one who was present, later said that if “I had not seen him with my own eyes, there is no one that could have convinced me that it was not Joseph Smith”
You are right in that all the splinter groups can and do say we are the ones that went astray, and they are continuing to follow the truth. My response would be that, I would hope they would think that, otherwise there is no sense in continuing on in their faith. Though I would disagree with them.
Fly…

If this was the case as you describe it, why was there still a splintering into several branches after the death of JS? Why was there turmoil?
when Brigham Young spoke on August 8, his voice and appearance bore a striking resemblance to those of Joseph Smith. Wilford Woodruff, one who was present, later said that if “I had not seen him with my own eyes, there is no one that could have convinced me that it was not Joseph Smith”
Could BY been possessed by JS?😃
 
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