LDS: Is this video accurate for your theology?

[RebeccaJ]

That’s not the issue at all. I asked you to explain why *you *find the idea of Kolob offensive, and in your long post, you have not even begun to answer my question.

Yes, I could address the other points, but why waste the time if you’re not going to be reasonable? The inclusion of Kolob on your list, and your refusal to explain why that’s offensive, suggests to me that you’ve merely ported over a list of Mr. Decker’s objections. And it’s his job to get offended at other people’s religions. That’s how he makes his money. He gets offended at your religion, too, and makes money from writing at that.

So please explain why the actual LDS teachings about Kolob are offensive. Not what Ed Decker said that we believe about Kolob. Just the idea that God has a particular physical place, throne, which could be referenced in Abraham’s time by saying that it was “near” some star named Kolob.

You said that the list of doctrines makes you feel physically sick. So I ask you, what makes you so upset about that info about Kolob?

Address that and then I’ll move to another point. But if you don’t, I don’t think I should lose my time.

You say that Kolob is “blasphemy”? I don’t understand why… Have you really thought this through?

But she did, and very well.

The Lord is so, but so higher then any capacity of grasping or rationalaizing his nature that is like he doesn’t have nature but is the core of all nature but is not all nature at the same time. Since He is behond conception He is behond time and space. He doesn’t have any need, He is the need of everything else, He is absolute purity and goodness, and I can go on.
The concept of God for you is extremely lowering is Holy being. It is like for you LDS would be is the same if you go from celestial to telestial or outter darkness. Even in the first case is a degradation of state.
Degradating the sate of the Lord is deeply offensive for something like me. And I am sure for other Christians too.
So immagine when I hear He has a body of flesh and bones like us and that He lives nearby a star or a planet.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Just out of curiosity, CowboyPete, if God occupies physical space and (presumably) sits on a throne somewhere near a star (or planet; the accounts conflict) named Kolob, do you think God also (somehow) is able to transcend both space and time?

Yes. All things are continually before Him.

Obviously the ability to transcend space and time does not preclude God having a particular purpose or preference for a particular space.

If so, how does that work? Does God leave any and all space-time matrices in order to transcend or is he able to transcend within a particular material cosmos (such as ours)? If the former, what happens to his body?

I’m not sure how my belief that the Father having a body should cause any problems not addressed by the fact that Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son, has a body.

In any event, I’ve visited the Sistine Chapel. Do you think that Michaelangelo’s famous picture of God giving life to Adam, is somehow “blasphemous” as painting God the Father with a body?

 

[NewSeeker]

In any event, I’ve visited the Sistine Chapel. Do you think that Michaelangelo’s famous picture of God giving life to Adam, is somehow “blasphemous” as painting God the Father with a body?

Not at all, so long as the symbolism is continually kept in mind. So, I’m not sure you answered my question. In your view, what does God do with his body when he transcends his preferred space and time? Yes, I know, the same applies to the resurrected Jesus. This isn’t a problem for Catholics. We know the immaterial, immanent triune God is able to enter his creation and take on material form at will and let it go at will. That’s what the Incarnation is all about.

 

[KathleenGee]

Of course not.

And Jesus said He is the face of God.

Our Church has existed since Christ Himself instituted it. He nurtures us with His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Our faith is based solely on Christ, not on man.

Man made Christian churches – no matter similar thought and beliefs – still bear the fruit of separation and sectarianism, and condemnation of Christ’s Church — not the fruit of true communion…

Jesus said at the Last Supper, before initiating the Eucharist…that we would all be one … so the world would believe. One of the observations made by non-Christians is the many divisions of Christianity…brought about by Sola Scriptura.

Our country’s greatest block is Christianity, but with all its countless divisions, it is going down with it.

It does no good knocking down what is truly sacred, and only increases the darkness of disunity and divisions.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

But she did, and very well.

If that’s what she meant to address Kolob with, then I apologize for completely not understanding how it relates.

The Lord is so, but so higher then any capacity of grasping or rationalaizing his nature that is like he doesn’t have nature but is the core of all nature but is not all nature at the same time. Since He is behond conception He is behond time and space.

Your logic is beyond my own conception, but I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Our ability, or lack thereof, to comprehend God, has no bearing whatsoever on God’s ability to transcend space and time does not in itself. The fact that we don’t understand something does not cause something to transcend space and Time. Do you not believe that God’s power transcends our ignorance? That God would still transcend space and time if we did understand him? God’s greatness does not depend on our ignorance. If God were to fulfill his promise to you in 1st Corinthians 13, pull the veil from your mind, and fill you with the power to know Him as fully as you are Known by him, He would not lose the ability to transcend space and time. If you believe that God’s power depends on our helplessness and ignorance, you paradoxically place human ignorance as the source of power. And that would be silly, would it not?

He doesn’t have any need, He is the need of everything else, He is absolute purity and goodness, and I can go on.

He may not have needs, and yet take pleasure and utility in a particular place or moment. He is not the god of the Pantheists, evenly and indiscriminately spread throughout the universe.

The concept of God for you is extremely lowering is Holy being

.

Why?

How is that more lowering, than saying that this is the city of Bethelehem, where our God took flesh and was born among us.That this is the hill of Golgotha where our dear Lord was crucified and became our Savior? That this may be the Shroud that covered his body as he lay in the tomb?

Are you certain that your outrage is not about control? That it’s OK for the Catholic church to say these things but not for us to say them? Is it really God’s sanctity that you are defending here?

 

[KathleenGee]

What about Christianity’s reaction that true religion finally came with Joseph Smith in the Midwest over a hundred years ago??? Where is the historical sense in this…as well as the location of the Holy Spirit…pun intended…

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

What about Christianity’s reaction that true religion finally came with Joseph Smith in the Midwest over a hundred years ago???

Since when is Palmyra, New York in the midwest?

But surely you have a better argument than geographic “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth” parrochialism. Your very argument validates my question:

Are you certain that your outrage is not about control? That it’s OK for the Catholic church to say these things but not for us to say them? Is it really God’s sanctity that you are defending here?

Who said anything about the location of the Holy Spirit?

 

[truthsave]

If that’s what she meant to address Kolob with, then I apologize for completely not understanding how it relates.

Your logic is beyond my own conception, but I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Our ability, or lack thereof, to comprehend God, has no bearing whatsoever on God’s ability to transcend space and time does not in itself. The fact that we don’t understand something does not cause something to transcend space and Time. Do you not believe that God’s power transcends our ignorance? That God would still transcend space and time if we did understand him? God’s greatness does not depend on our ignorance. If God were to fulfill his promise to you in 1st Corinthians 13, pull the veil from your mind, and fill you with the power to know Him as fully as you are Known by him, He would not lose the ability to transcend space and time. If you believe that God’s power depends on our helplessness and ignorance, you paradoxically place human ignorance as the source of power. And that would be silly, would it not?

He may not have needs, and yet take pleasure and utility in a particular place or moment. He is not the god of the Pantheists, evenly and indiscriminately spread throughout the universe.

.

Why?

How is that more lowering, than saying that this is the city of Bethelehem, where our God took flesh and was born among us.That this is the hill of Golgotha where our dear Lord was crucified and became our Savior? That this may be the Shroud that covered his body as he lay in the tomb?

Are you certain that your outrage is not about control? That it’s OK for the Catholic church to say these things but not for us to say them? Is it really God’s sanctity that you are defending here?

I know you cannot understand, absolutely not for luck of intelligence but for if you would you would doubt what you have been thought. And this I can understand.

Mormons and you reduce God to an object that can be perceived.
God is not an object like a car a pencil or whatever.

**GOD IS ALWAYS SUBJECT.
**

I know it is tough for you but if I cannot understand a king is not good if to understanding him I lower him to the level of a clown. This is the blasphemy for us Christians. This is what is insulting.
And from king to clown there is much less difference then from our Lord to LDS Lord.
Why? Because a king or a clown are humans anyway with same fears, and same need, Christian Lord and us is… impossible to conceive the paragon (sorry if this word is not understandable I don’t know how to say it in English)
It is true we are made to His immage, but an immage is an immage. A movie is an immage of reality, a picture of a mountain is not a mountain, a glass of sea water is not the ocean and so on.

If you cannot understand Lord say just He is behond understanding and accept with humility yours and mine and ours limited human nature.
It is question of being humble.

Hope this time you can accept my point of view. If you understand my point of you you could understand why is offensive LDS doctrine for a Christian. If not you can’t.

I am not saying you not to write any more, I wouldn’t like it, I am not saying don’t express yourself, I don’t insult you, I just say try to understand and expecially to accept LDS doctrine for a Christian is deeply offensive. At least you can appreciaty an Orthodox like me or a Catholic or whatever to have tollerance and acceptance of the different views even though they hurt extremely deeply.
That’s all.

 

[KathleenGee]

Really, Tony…then Palmyra…far from the Holy Land…1800 years after the event…

1800 years of Christians who are not, who died in vain and Christ gone???

THINK

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I know you cannot understand, absolutely not for luck of intelligence but for if you would you would doubt what you have been thought. And this I can understand.

Mormons and you reduce God to an object that can be perceived.
God is not an object like a car a pencil or whatever.

**GOD IS ALWAYS SUBJECT.
**

God can only be perceived if God gives us the power to perceive him. As he did with Moses, and with Joseph Smith, who was no greater a prophet than Moses, and no less either.

Truthsave, I did not accuse you of insulting me. Nor do I wish to insult you.

Israel will always be a more special place to us than anywhere else, because of that’s where the miracles of the atonement and the resurrection were wrought; it’s where Jesus paid the price for our sins.

Palmyra is no more important to us, than Rome is to you.

Heck, the Jews don’t even remember where the real Mt. Sinai was, which was somewhere in Saudi Arabia, since they crossed the red sea to get there.

 

[Tony888]

Not at all, so long as the symbolism is continually kept in mind. So, I’m not sure you answered my question. In your view, what does God do with his body when he transcends his preferred space and time? Yes, I know, the same applies to the resurrected Jesus. This isn’t a problem for Catholics. We know the immaterial, immanent triune God is able to enter his creation and take on material form at will and let it go at will. That’s what the Incarnation is all about.

NewSeeker,
Your post made me laugh, reading you argue against your own Catholic mysteries

Didn’t Jesus ascend body and soul into heaven. The term may be ‘glorified’?
Didn’t Mary, Mother of Christ, ascend body and soul into heaven”
Don’t they both still have bodies, per Catholic teachings?

Now I see you argue that the LDS thinking the same is ludicrous?
Why do you limit the Father but not the Son?

I think you are here to attack, rather than understand theology.

 

[Stephen168]

I think you are here to attack, rather than understand theology.

Scott, I strongly urge you to never learn your theology from a Cartoon.

To give you some perspective, Should I believe the teachings in these Chick Tracts ?
These are just a sample of their great doctrinal material on the RCC. I looked them over and they seemed to be accurate in their quotations, lining up with what I was taught as a young catholic. I ask you please to ignore the obviously bias talk in the Chick presentation, and just focus on what they say objectively.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Do you have no sense of irony at all, man?

**I ask you please to ignore the obviously bias talk in the video, and just focus on what they say objectively. **

It’s kind of like asking someone to sit back and objectively, dispassionately, watch one’s mother get raped.

 

[Tony888]

Stephen168:
Great stephen,
I see you get the parallels between the LDS cartoon and the Catholic Chick Tracts!
Both are downright nasty in how they tell half truths and take teachings out of context.

Here’s praying the OP also sees the light!

 

[KathleenGee]

The issue Tony and Pete is that the Lord has remained with us through His Sacrament the Eucharist and His Sacred Word, promising us eternal life who endure in Him for 2,000 years with no more prophets.

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophets and commenced the priesthood of Melchizedek…the perpetual sacrificed prophesied in the Old Testament. When we participate in Christ, we are all members of His kingdom, of His royal priesthood male and female alike, and fulfill prophecy in our own lives announcing the Good News of Jesus Christ.

The event has never changed, the message has never changed…and this is why the Holy Land is called Holy…there is no other place thus designated.

Christ is the Alpha and the Omega…there is nothing after, and all things in this world are renewed through Him, the Eternal Word…not a word that comes and goes and changes…but the Living Word Made Flesh…

Who said He would never leave us, but remains with us not only in Word but in Sacrament in the sanctuary.

 

[KathleenGee]

And again…how do you think we respond…when the inference is still there about all creeds an abomination in regards to Christianity…and particularly more so the Roman Catholic Church?

The video has exposed the basic premises of Mormonism…

Mormonism is changing, and standardizing…but it does not want to reveal its original teachings. Ours don’t change because the Holy Spirit is the one guiding and directing and teaching through souls consecrated to His ministry.

 

[Tony888]

Kathleen,
Are you arguing that a firm belief that you are right, somehow justifies the slander and false depiction of LDS theology in the OP?

 

[truthsave]

God can only be perceived if God gives us the power to perceive him. As he did with Moses, and with Joseph Smith, who was no greater a prophet than Moses, and no less either.

Truthsave, I did not accuse you of insulting me. Nor do I wish to insult you.

Israel will always be a more special place to us than anywhere else, because of that’s where the miracles of the atonement and the resurrection were wrought; it’s where Jesus paid the price for our sins.

Palmyra is no more important to us, than Rome is to you.

Heck, the Jews don’t even remember where the real Mt. Sinai was, which was somewhere in Saudi Arabia, since they crossed the red sea to get there.

As far as the power to perceive Him I am with you, but I say that the power to perceive Him make you counscious you are perceiving not even a fraction of what HE IS since HE IS. Again the same example. He give you a glass of sea water. And from a glass of sea water to the ocean a lot is missing.
For God the difference it is much much greater then this.

Cowboy Pete I know perfectly you are not isulting me with your being but with the doctrine that you belief. And I think you know I am not insulting you either. I will always respect you deeply as a human being and if you are highly blasphematory in your doctrine towards Christianity and if this is a sin don’t worry I am a sinner too. Just capable of different kind of sins.
You steal houses, I still cars. We both need Lord forgiveness. At least it is what I think. At least me for sure.

I have to be strongly against a doctrine that is blasphematory of all the Holy names I put my faith in. That’s it.
You say till your death you are right and me or we wrong in our believes and I will say till my death you are in the worse, most insulting, most blasphematory most deeply insulting doctrine ever to Christianity and his Holy names.

Please accept this since it is my truth and I guess many other Christian truth too.

Again I tell you and the other LDS: you should just accept, that your doctrine is highly offensive to Christians. If you can understand this ok if not it doesn’t give you the right to think it is not true. I don’t want you to stop expressing yourself just be counscious of this fact.

Please accept this since it is my truth and I guess many other Christian truth too.
Please accept this even if you cannot understand it.

 

[KathleenGee]

And Tony…you are not answering people here …what about those Mormons who blaspheme the Divine Presence of Christ in the sacrament and keep searching Mormons from seeking and finding the truth…and don’t for fear of loosing their families???

There are numerous threads here on CAF that link to ever changing beliefs of Mormonism…I have read them myself from Mormon sites…‘God once a man’…now making man creator and not God along with the invalidation of Christianity.

A dear friend here noted when Mormon links were exposing old and changing ideas…and upon returning, would find them gone…

We take on the name of Christ because we follow Him…and St. Paul warns of following angels…a long time ago…after Christ was revealed.

Again…THINK…would Christ come to shed His blood for naught up until the time of Joseph Smith?..how many, many ideas of Joseph Smith contradict Scripture…and this issue of DNA…there were no Jews here in America…talk to the Jewish people…they know their own…and scoff at any such idea that they don’t even bother responding.

I am not intending anything but that there is reality that Christ is Truth and no man can equal Him or bring about a new story practically 2,000 years later.

 

[Stephen168]

And Tony…you are not answering people here …

That is correct. Like many Mormons that come here to proselytize. When they realize that is not possible they resort to denials and chick tracts; never any conversation on the subject of the thread. Talk about anything but the subject of the thread. In the first 19 posts, I think we got the answer that the video was basically correct.