LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[Stephen168]

Is there any proof that priesthood authority was taken from the earth?
ParkerD;7527408:

Not the kind of proof you’re looking for, but certainly the kind of proof I have sought. It’s fine–we differ in the kind of proof we are interested in about these kinds of things.
Peace to you and yours.

Well, at least when it comes to the subject of this thread: **Mormons prove your claim that the authority Christ gave to his Apostles was taken from the earth. **

They wax poetic about many topics which they think are unique to Mormonism but they have not been able to answer the OP with anything more than ‘feelings’
ParkerD;7531912:

So the LDS are simply not bothered by the kinds of challenges repeated over and over about “physical proof”–since they are merely right in line with the very old logic used by the one who is the deceiver, who even tried to use scripture to deceive.

No answer to the OP

 

[Peter_John]

Stephen168,

I responded to the OP, but just not in the way you liked. Your last sentence illustrates quite succinctly the difference between “rational theology” and “revealed theology.” You seem to want a “rational discussion” so that it will be evident to the rational mind, yet Paul wrote about that very thing and said “don’t do it,” in so many words.

This was why I was glad when the subject of having an ongoing conversation with Christ came up, since of course He is interested in answering such a question, but not by forcing the issue with “proof” to the rational mind. He doesn’t take away free will choice using “rational proof”. Just because people use rational proof to guide their own religious choices, does not mean He wanted them to do that. He told Peter exactly the opposite of doing that.

I will respond to Lax16 tonight when I have the time since the issue has been pressed, but it would be far better for someone to take such questions and be introspective with their personal search about answers to those questions, using the Bible as the source of the personal search, plus introspection.

Peace.

Now it sounds like you are saying that the historic record did not happen because the authority was not literally, or rationally, taken away, but only figuratively taken away, so it can only be understood figuratively.

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

I’m going to pass on answering most of your latest set of questions. The Bible is the Bible and is the word of God. The LDS believe the Bible to be the word of God …

Semantics, semantics.

First read Matthew 17: 10-14 in the LDS edition of the King James Bible.

lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/17?lang=eng

This what it says, but go to the footnotes, and they connect to a resource in the back of the book that shows what Mormons understand it to mean, because it is what Joseph Smith said God revealed to him it was aupposed to say:

lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-matt/17?lang=eng&query=Jesus

 

[Stephen168]

Now it sounds like you are saying that the historic record did not happen because the authority was not literally, or rationally, taken away, but only figuratively taken away, so it can only be understood figuratively.

I was just hoping for something to show why Mormons believe it wasn’t fictionally taken away.

 

[lax16]

I will respond to Lax16 tonight when I have the time since the issue has been pressed, but it would be far better for someone to take such questions and be introspective with their personal search about answers to those questions, using the Bible as the source of the personal search, plus introspection.

Peace.

Hi Parker - I am not sure if you are referring to me as needing to be introspective regarding the meaning of the creed and that I need to determine if it is biblically based?

I have already done so, and continue to do so, so I welcome your discussion (as always!) when you have the time.

 

[pablope]

Now it sounds like you are saying that the historic record did not happen because the authority was not literally, or rationally, taken away, but only figuratively taken away, so it can only be understood figuratively.

Hi, PJ…i was trying to make sense of Parker’s response…but you worded it…

 

[Peter_John]

Today we Catholics recognize the martyrdom of early Church Father Polycarp.

Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna, and LDS members may want to review his Epistle to the Phillipians for evidence of Apostasy. Considering these remarks may help us come to some recognition of when an general apostasy may have happened, or if one happened at all.

The link requires Adobe Reader
supakoo.com/rick/PolycarpToPhilippians-2010-01-05.pdf

Do LDS consider that Polycarp was a true martyr for the faith, or a deceived leader who died defending a fallacy? You need to read the letter to decide.

 

[Peter_John]

I was just hoping for something to show why Mormons believe it wasn’t fictionally taken away.

So affirming it was literally taken away, there should be historical events or indications with this. Correct?

 

[SteveVH]

I responded to the OP, but just not in the way you liked. Your last sentence illustrates quite succinctly the difference between “rational theology” and “revealed theology.” You seem to want a “rational discussion” so that it will be evident to the rational mind, yet Paul wrote about that very thing and said “don’t do it,” in so many words.

The entire basis of Christianity is “revealed truth”, from which we derive our theology. This revelation can summed up in one person, Jesus Christ. The Mormon church has no unique claim to revelation. It does, however, have a unique claim to the absence of rational thought, so we would agree on that point.

God made us as rational beings and the truth He revealed to us does not conflict with our rational minds. When it does, we should be worried. This is very relevant to the topic of this thread. When the claim of a “Great Apostasy” is countered at every turn by a complete lack of empirical evidence, it should, at a minimum, give one pause as to the truth of the claim. If I return to my car and find a large dent in the hood and am told that it was caused by a falling tree, but there are no trees in sight, I will probably deduce that I am being told a lie. Our rational mind is a gift from God which is given to help us discern truth. When we ignore this gift in favor of believing something regardless of the evidence against it, we do ourselves and God a disfavor.

 

[Stephen168]

So affirming it was literally taken away, there should be historical events or indications with this. Correct?

Yes, I think a rational man would require a historical event or indication to affirm his belief that something happened; in this case the belief that priesthood authority was taken from the earth. An event that has not happened in the Mormon Church but could happen in the Mormon Church.

When someone cannot even offer a reason for why they believe something, it seems very cultism to me.

 

[Stephen168]

God made us as rational beings and the truth He revealed to us does not conflict with our rational minds. When it does, we should be worried. This is very relevant to the topic of this thread. When the claim of a “Great Apostasy” is countered at every turn by a complete lack of empirical evidence, it should, at a minimum, give one pause as to the truth of the claim. If I return to my car and find a large dent in the hood and am told that it was caused by a falling tree, but there are no trees in sight, I will probably deduce that I am being told a lie. Our rational mind is a gift from God which is given to help us discern truth. When we ignore this gift in favor of believing something regardless of the evidence against it, we do ourselves and God a disfavor.

I was taught that is why I should not drink too much alcohol, because it separates me from that gift that God gave me. If I have it and not use it, it is almost sinful.

 

[GaryTaylor]

How is Original Sin disproved in LDS?

Original Sin corresponds with Genesis, Hosea, 1 Corinthians and Romans? Hebrews all believed it and Paul clearly spoke of it.

Let alone the Tree of Life taken away by God in Genesis, Adam and Eves punishment was eventual death, the Tree of Life in Revelation is obtained by following Gods Commandments.

How is the LDS stance proved through Bible Scripture?

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker -
The Bible is the Bible and is the word of God only as long as it is translated correctly, right?

Lax16,

That would be if a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit with them and thus must trust that every word is exactly and precisely the word God would have used if He had been originating or translating the message. I consider the KJV as the word of God, and am fine that there is an important need for the Holy Spirit when studying the Bible.

How can Christ be the Only Begotten Son - LDS teach that we are also the spirit children of God

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

This is why one needs to learn to identify the guidance of the Holy Ghost in their life, so that they are not deceived. It’s also why learning to love the Bible as it was originally inspired to be written is so important, to learn to distinguish men’s ideas from God’s original and direct meaning.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - Which words to do you disagree with?

**The Nicene Creed **

(1) I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.

(2) I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:
He was conceived by the
power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

(3) He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered died and was buried.

(4) On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

(5) He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

(6) We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the
Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
(7) We believe in one holy
catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one
baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Lax16,

I really don’t want to do this–I respect your beliefs and understand that you hold them just as sacred as I hold my beliefs.

(1) Here is the context for the belief in one God:

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 55:5
Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Isaiah 48:17
Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isaiah 54:5
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

It is abundantly clear that the God of Israel, the Redeemer, is Jehovah, Immanuel, Jesus the Christ (the Anointed One).

(2) “Only son” is not Biblical. “Only Begotten Son” is Biblical. The third, fourth, fifth, and sixth lines are non-Biblical.

(7) “catholic and apostolic Church” is a non-Biblical term.

Also, the non-mention of repentance before “baptism for the forgiveness of sins” is a non-Biblical application of the ordinance of baptism. Repentance and baptism are always mentioned in context together in the New Testament. Baptism without repentance creates an incorrect assumption regarding the ordinance of baptism.

Peace to all.

 

[SteveVH]

Lax16,

That would be if a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit with them and thus must trust that every word is exactly and precisely the word God would have used if He had been originating or translating the message. I consider the KJV as the word of God, and am fine that there is an important need for the Holy Spirit when studying the Bible.

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

This is why one needs to learn to identify the guidance of the Holy Ghost in their life, so that they are not deceived. It’s also why learning to love the Bible as it was originally inspired to be written is so important, to learn to distinguish men’s ideas from God’s original and direct meaning.

I just want to ask a simple question. Do you believe that Mormons have an exclusive on having the Holy Spirit with them?

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

It is abundantly clear that the God of Israel, the Redeemer, is Jehovah, Immanuel, Jesus the Christ (the Anointed One).

I find this a very interesting comment. Are you saying that the God of Israel is the Father and the Son? Do you realize the implication of this statement? Not Gods, but “the God”.

 

[menofstjoseph]

ParkerD.,
So, I have a problem I would like you to help me with. Sorry this story is a bit long.

In recent years a situation has occurred down here in south Alabama you might find interesting. A young man was out one of the local beaches and, as he told the story, he noticed something sticking out of sand. As he reached down he found a silver booklet. The book was supposedly written in a language he had never seen. The young man’s name is Bill Jones. Bill is extremely well respected in this area and known to be, as we say around here, a “straight shooter”. Now this is where is story gets a bit odd. Bill was unable to make to Church one Sunday and decided to walk in the nearby woods and pray. At the last minute he decided to pick up the silver booklet to take with him. While walking down a path he felt a warming and a vibration in the pocket that held the booklet. He reached down at touched the silver book and as he did a bright light appeared in front of him. It was then that Bill says he saw the Angel Gabriel and Jesus Christ step out of the light in front of him. He gazed at the two for what seems like hours as they spoke to him a language he could not understand. Suddenly the light behind Christ and the archangel began to get brighter. The brighter the light became the warmer the booklet in his pocket became. Bill explains that as he reached down and took the booklet out of his pocket and as he did so Jesus took his hand and squeezed Bill’s it around the silver book. As he did so the light suddenly became blinding and he understood a word from Christ’s lips, “Wisdom”.

Since that day he claims he was able to understand the language in silver booklet. According to Bill the book has a set of revelations and instructions from God to the human race:

• All people are to leave their respective parishes or churches and form “house churches” with their closest family.
• Every family should give way 40% of their wealth to another family less fortunate than themselves.
• The state of Texas will soon be shown as the New Jerusalem for the New Chosen People.
• 1 hour of each morning and one hour each evening must be spent in prayer regardless of age.
• If any family had more than one male child the oldest son should be given to the priesthood of the “one true Church” to minister to all of the house churches.
• All people who do Christ’s will and follow the word of Bill Jones will be, on the day of judgement, given their own Starship and planet to rule from the Starship.
• There is only one Holy and Apostolic Church - the Orthodox of the East and the Church of Rome. All other are false.
• All traditonal Catholic parishes are false.

I know there are more, but I cannot recall what they are at this time. Supposedly he received many other visions and gave many more prophesies since that original event.

Bottom line, this all happen 5 years ago. Today he has more than 1,000 followers and believers of his “Holy Word”. The problem (among many in my opinion) is that no one else has ever seen or heard any these visions. Worse, the booklet was supposedly stolen by Lucifer riding on a black stallion so no one has seen this silver booklet. So all his followers and his detractors are left with is the story as told by Bill Jones with no supporting evidence. There is no physical proof of any of what he has said. There are no miracles attributed to his “Holy Word”. His followers are growing in numbers and are aggressively trying to convert those who belong to the False Churches (Protestants and Mormons), and they are pressuring those in local Catholic Churches to leave their parishes.

Despite the fact all of this started in 2006 in Bayou La Batre, Alabama all of his follower are convinced that evidence is unimportant and that the “Holy Word” of Bill Jones is on par with any Book of the Bible. “Bill’s word is all I need” is a common phrase you hear (and its a bumper sticker you see on cars too.)

The other common retort is 'you don’t understand because you are not of the New Chosen People. You are not of the Holy Spirit."

A friend of mine and his family have decided to leave our parish and form a house Church and are following this person that I believe to be a heretic and lunatic.

How do I convince them not to follow the word of one man, whose story seem more than a little incredible, and who has no proof to support any of his claims?

 

[ParkerD]

I just want to ask a simple question. Do you believe that Mormons have an exclusive on having the Holy Spirit with them?

Thanks.

SteveVH,

I hadn’t thought that before the recent discussion on this thread, but it appears to me that many people don’t really believe that the Holy Spirit guides and answers prayers and hence they have to have “proof” that they think is tangible and “rational”.

I think others have enough understanding from the Bible that they do receive guidance from the Holy Spirit and don’t discount it when they do. (But even so they may be reluctant to ask questions in prayer that might lead to a change in what they do in life.)

 

[ParkerD]

I find this a very interesting comment. Are you saying that the God of Israel is the Father and the Son? Do you realize the implication of this statement? Not Gods, but “the God”.

The God of Israel is Jehovah, the Son. Isaiah made that abundantly clear, as did Christ Himself.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD.,
So, I have a problem I would like you to help me with. … His followers are growing in numbers and are aggressively trying to convert those who belong to the False Churches (Protestants and Mormons), and they are pressuring those in local Catholic Churches to leave their parishes.

Despite the fact all of this started in 2006 in Bayou La Batre, Alabama all of his follower are convinced that evidence is unimportant and that the “Holy Word” of Bill Jones is on par with any Book of the Bible. “Bill’s word is all I need” is a common phrase you hear (and its a bumper sticker you see on cars too.)

The other common retort is 'you don’t understand because you are not of the New Chosen People. You are not of the Holy Spirit."

A friend of mine and his family have decided to leave our parish and form a house Church and are following this person that I believe to be a heretic…

How do I convince them not to follow the word of one man, whose story seem more than a little incredible, and who has no proof to support any of his claims?

Men of St Joseph,

People of today often have such little background in the Bible that they are very easily mislead by someone who appeals to the spiritual longing and “thirst” that they may have in their life. I think once they are headed down a track where they have stopped studying the Bible and having its steadying influence in their search for spiritual fulfillment, then deceiving spirits can gain the better of their judgment.

I suggest one would have to hope and pray that they may decide at some point that they will realize they are still not spiritually fulfilled, and hopefully they will go back to studying the Bible and figuring out where the disconnect happened in how they accepted false, non-Biblical teachings.

But these kinds of things will probably continue to happen as people are spiritually insecure in their beliefs.

We lived in Georgia for many years, but it’s been a while. That’s a new one on me.