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zaffiroborant
Guest
How “in a different way”? You are the first LDS I’ve seen say this. Could you provide something to expand on this from official church sources?
LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth
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SteveVH
Guest
I believe that that Holy Spirit guides and answers prayer. In fact I don’t know anyone in my Church that does not believe this. The Holy Spirit’s guidance has never conflicted with tangible and rational proof for the simple reason that truth never conflicts with truth. I would not disagree that there are probably those who “may be reluctant to ask questions in prayer that might lead to a change in what they do in life.” But this would apply to people of all faiths, including Mormons. Neither you nor I have the ability to read hearts, not do we have the right to make this judgment toward any group or individual.
I have never doubted your sincerity nor your desire to know God and His will for your life even though I disagree with your understanding of God.
What I gather from your comments is that you have no rational, empirical evidence that priesthood authority ever left the earth and therefore wish to discount that fact as unimportant and even unbiblical. I’m sorry, but it strains credibility. When Jesus forgave sins, he “proved” that He had the power by making a paralyzed man walk, evidencing in a very tangible and rational way that He was God. Throughout His life he performed miracles “that they may believe”; tangible evidence that could be perceived with a rational mind. We do not have to separate our rationality from our spirituality. Just as the rational mind is incomplete without faith, so faith is incomplete without a rational mind.
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menofstjoseph
Guest
I agree with what you said. Completely. I guess I get confused when I hear certain teaching attributed to the LDS. If I am wrong on these please let me know or correct them.Men of St Joseph,
People of today often have such little background in the Bible that they are very easily mislead by someone who appeals to the spiritual longing and “thirst” that they may have in their life. I think once they are headed down a track where they have stopped studying the Bible and having its steadying influence in their search for spiritual fulfillment, then deceiving spirits can gain the better of their judgment.
I suggest one would have to hope and pray that they may decide at some point that they will realize they are still not spiritually fulfilled, and hopefully they will go back to studying the Bible and figuring out where the disconnect happened in how they accepted false, non-Biblical teachings.
But these kinds of things will probably continue to happen as people are spiritually insecure in their beliefs.
We lived in Georgia for many years, but it’s been a while. That’s a new one on me.
- Jesus is Lucifer’s brother.
- The lost tribe of Isreal was in America.
- The chosen receive their own planet after death.
- The faithful are actual sons of God and brothers of Christ.
- God has a body.
If I did indeed did butcher some of those points above please clarify them, and then show me the scripture that supports them (such where is it in Scripture that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers? And where is it in Scripture there was the Great Apostacy?)
Thanks.
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SteveVH
Guest
Then God the Father is not the God of Israel? Who’s God is He?
Stephen168
New member
You have not answered the OP. You seem to have no reason to believe the claim of the Mormon Church that priesthood authority was taken from the earth. This is the first real cult-like behavior I’ve seen from a Mormon. Absolute blind obedience.
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SteveVH
Guest
Anything that separates us from God is sinful. A clear, rational mind allows us to pray. A clouded mind prevents us from prayer. I would say that it is not “almost” sinful, but rather is sinful. In the interest of full disclosure, I know of what I speak. There was a time in my life that was spent in a “clouded” state much of the time, not just with alcohol, but with anything I could get my hands on. God changed all of that and I would not trade my relationship with Him for anything, nor would I allow anything to get in the way of that relationship.
But to have a clear, rational mind and ignore the truth the rational mind perceives in favor of a notion we wish to believe, inspite of the evidence squarely in front of us, is intellectually dishonest if not spiritually dishonest.
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pablope
Guest
So Parker, if I read this right, you are saying we catholics that are asking for definitive proof of your claims are not rational in thought, and do not have the Holy Spirit in us when we read the Bible, we we converse with you?
So, in essence, you do not think Catholics are Christians?
Looks more like you are describing yourself here, isn’t it?
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ParkerD
Guest
SteveVH,
Isaiah was very clear about the God of Israel being the Redeemer, the one and only Savior.
Jesus prayed to God the Father, “Our Father which art in Heaven”. His Father is our Father in Heaven, to whom we should pray just as Jesus taught.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Jesus is our Redeemer. However, don’t forget that the Father redeemed us through His Son. (Ephesians 1)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the Holy Trinity. They are GOD, and so we are Redeemed by God.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the Holy Trinity. They are GOD, and so we are Redeemed by God.
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ParkerD
Guest
Men of St Joseph,
This is “attributed to the LDS” often, but I have never seen it taught directly, and I personally don’t believe it to be true. Lucifer always deceives, and mocks Jesus.
The lost tribes of Israel and the Jews were all to be scattered throughout the world, according to Old Testament prophecy–all to fulfill God’s purposes and His promise to Abraham that through his seed “all the earth would be blessed.”
So, part of one or more descendants of Israel were in America anciently, yes. Joseph’s “branches” “run over the wall” (the ocean). (See Genesis and the blessing on the head of Joseph.) “Joseph is a fruitful bough.”
No, he that overcometh shall “inherit all things”, and will be given “power over the nations” in righteousness and love. (See Revelation 2:26, Revelation 21:7)
The LDS belief is that all mankind are children of God, and lived with Him in a premortal world where we also knew Jesus as the Only Begotten Son who offered to come to earth and offer Himself as the sinless sacrifice to atone for our sins. Jesus is sometimes referred to as an “Elder Brother” since He is the Firstborn, but it seems more appropriate to me to refer to Him as the Only Begotten Son, and He becomes our spiritual Father through our being reborn in a spiritual rebirth–the second birth.
Yes, just as Christ has a resurrected body and said “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. God is spirit, and should be worshiped in spirit and in truth, with our full spiritual love and all our mind and heart.
They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.”
God will not force belief onto people, by making things so obvious that their free will choice is taken away by “obvious rational proof.” You may be somewhat familiar with 1 Corinthians 1-3 on this subject.
Again, it’s hidden so that people can seek and find, ask and receive, knock and “it shall be opened”. People grow in spirituality as they thirst for truths and look for them and find them. If it were to be spoon-fed to them, they would have much less spiritual growth. If you take the time to read this thread, you will find comments and links that cite Biblical scriptures about a “falling away” and about the beast being allowed to "make war with the saints, and to overcome them.
Sure thing. (I had wondered if you were pulling my leg.)
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ADouglass
Guest
From ParkerD: “They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.””
I don’t see how that would limit my “free will choice.” Even you must deny that it would not limit it because after all you believe Satan used to be Lucifer who was the second born spirit son of God the Father, and lived with the Father in the pre-earth life, yet he still rebelled. Also, it is the mormons’ belief that one can become a son of perdition. To a mormon, a son of perdition is one who with a full knowledge of the truth of God’s will, rejects God’s love and will be sent to “outer-darkness” which seems a lot like the Catholic view of Hell, separation from God. Mind you there are a few other qualifications to be a son of perdition according to mormon doctrine.
I don’t see how that would limit my “free will choice.” Even you must deny that it would not limit it because after all you believe Satan used to be Lucifer who was the second born spirit son of God the Father, and lived with the Father in the pre-earth life, yet he still rebelled. Also, it is the mormons’ belief that one can become a son of perdition. To a mormon, a son of perdition is one who with a full knowledge of the truth of God’s will, rejects God’s love and will be sent to “outer-darkness” which seems a lot like the Catholic view of Hell, separation from God. Mind you there are a few other qualifications to be a son of perdition according to mormon doctrine.
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ADouglass
Guest
From ParkerD: “They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.””
I don’t see how that would limit my “free will choice.” Even you must deny that it would not limit it because after all you believe Satan used to be Lucifer who was the second born spirit son of God the Father, and lived with the Father in the pre-earth life, yet he still rebelled. Also, it is the mormons’ belief that one can become a son of perdition. To a mormon, a son of perdition is one who with a full knowledge of the truth of God’s will, rejects God’s love and will be sent to “outer-darkness” which seems a lot like the Catholic view of Hell, separation from God. Mind you there are a few other qualifications to be a son of perdition according to mormon doctrine.
I don’t see how that would limit my “free will choice.” Even you must deny that it would not limit it because after all you believe Satan used to be Lucifer who was the second born spirit son of God the Father, and lived with the Father in the pre-earth life, yet he still rebelled. Also, it is the mormons’ belief that one can become a son of perdition. To a mormon, a son of perdition is one who with a full knowledge of the truth of God’s will, rejects God’s love and will be sent to “outer-darkness” which seems a lot like the Catholic view of Hell, separation from God. Mind you there are a few other qualifications to be a son of perdition according to mormon doctrine.
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ParkerD
Guest
ADouglass,
I have heard such a misconception as you expressed about the adversary once before in my life, but have never heard where in the world anyone picked that up as an LDS belief. If you come back, could you share the source of your misinformation?
By the way, by your first point we all should know everything perfectly, and not “see through a glass darkly”–so that if anyone rebelled it would be obvious that they were rebelling. But then we come to the important understanding that God really does love each of us infinitely and magnificently, and wants only to “help us” and not “hurt us”, and knows the consequences of disobedience. The greater the knowledge, the greater the potential suffering for disobedience.
This is why knowledge of spiritual things in this life is conditioned on a person’s seeking that knowledge, rather than being placed into a position of “knowing everything” and thus being greatly condemned if they sin against what they know.
Peace to you.
I have heard such a misconception as you expressed about the adversary once before in my life, but have never heard where in the world anyone picked that up as an LDS belief. If you come back, could you share the source of your misinformation?
By the way, by your first point we all should know everything perfectly, and not “see through a glass darkly”–so that if anyone rebelled it would be obvious that they were rebelling. But then we come to the important understanding that God really does love each of us infinitely and magnificently, and wants only to “help us” and not “hurt us”, and knows the consequences of disobedience. The greater the knowledge, the greater the potential suffering for disobedience.
This is why knowledge of spiritual things in this life is conditioned on a person’s seeking that knowledge, rather than being placed into a position of “knowing everything” and thus being greatly condemned if they sin against what they know.
Peace to you.
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Peter_John
Guest
Semantics, straining at gnats, and swallowing camels. They were all written in other languages to begin with.
Besides, Mormons have no grounds to use the Bible to support any beliefs. The writings of Joseph Smith fairly well dismiss the Bible altogether. If anything in it seemed contradictory to what he wanted to teach, he changed it.
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Peter_John
Guest
If by “that misconception” you mean that Satan was Lucifer in the preexistence, and was our spiritual brother and the brother of our Lord, it is inherent in Mormon scripture, LDS manuals ffrom the 19th Century on. Inseparable from LDS teachings about the Plan of Salvation. If you assert you have never heard of it you are either disingenuous or uninformed about your church’s own beliefs.
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Peter_John
Guest
Parker, you should be ashamed of yourself. If you have been teaching Sunday School as long as you say, you know that what you are stating is outright deception.
It is a clear teaching of LDS doctrine that all of us were spirit brothers and sisters in the preexistence – the pre-Earth life with God, and that one-third rebelled, led by Lucifer, our brother and the Lord’s brother as well!
Shame on you! “It is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive” (D&C 129:7)
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Peter_John
Guest
- You are saying that reading stuff into the Bible ,not clear by what is written, is okay as long as the Holy SPirit incpires it – hence, what Joseph Smith wrote it *should *say is more accurate than what it actually states. Therefore you do not believe what the King James Bible actually says as written.
- The literal interpretation you give “begotten” does not apply within a Biblical context, because God is unchanging. Jesus is “eternally begotten” in his role in the Trinity, and you have to consider what Trinity means to assimilate that. As you cling to a corporeal perception of God, you are currently incapable of assimilating a perception of Trimity – and it is assimilated into one’s heart and mind, not understood.
- Again, you have no grounds to argue from the Bible. Do you think the Fathers of the Church were stupid? They knew what they were putting into the Bible when they compiled it. You have the impression that even Catholics consider the Bible something complex and incomprehensible, but that is not the case. It requires the fullness of the plain and precious parts within it, inclucing the deuterocanonical books, and it requires understanding the culutral and historical contexts within which it was written.
What the Old Testament account really tells of is how the Lord reveals himself to a few who are ready, and how slow the people are to understand that there is One God, and no others. The prophets are fairly clear and unambiguous, but the poetry and history show that the people were not getting it – hence Isaiah says, “My people has not understood.” It is only by the time you get into the deuterocanonical books that Monotheism is recognized across all genre of writings.
Any editing that happened is immaterial, as is translation. God used writers, editors, translators, and even the lives of those it tells stories about as the pens in his hand to write the Bible – he did not whisper in their ears to tell them what to write. Hosea understood this. God gave him an irrpressible love for an unfaithful woman so that He could understand that no matter how much Israel forsaked its God, the Lord would take them back.
AS long as you believe in what the Bible is supposed to say instead of what it does say, you can’t really believe it – but we should not be surprised. You claim the Book of Mormon the most perfect book, and even believe that it gets interpreted by outside sources, rather than for just exactly what iot says,
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ParkerD
Guest
Peter John,
No, it isn’t a “clear teaching of LDS doctrine that…Lucifer [was] our brother and the Lord’s brother as well.” I realize that is speculated about, by some, but if you think it’s a “clear teaching,” then correct me if I’m wrong by citing your LDS doctrinal, authoritative source that you seem so sure about. Otherwise, consider that it is speculation only by some who have no authoritative source for their speculation.
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Peter_John
Guest
I repeat:
"Help the young men understand that Satan is a spirit son of Heavenly Father born in the morning of the premortal life. " from Aaronic Priesthood Manual (teaches adolescent males – lds.org/manual/aaronic-priest…=Lucifer+rebel
That’s a start.
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SteveVH
Guest
With all due respect, you did not answer my question. Is God the Father the God of Israel or not? What does His being in heaven have to do with anything? Of course He is in heaven.
If Jesus Christ is the God of Israel, which Christians obviously believe He is, and God the Father is the God of Israel, which we also believe He is, and we have but one God, what do you suppose that might be telling you? No mention is made of two gods being one in purpose and will. The God revealed to us in the Scriptures is ONE God, as you have pointed out in Isaiah.
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