LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[JeanMichel]

from signaturebooks excerpt:

In 1835 **McLellin was called by Joseph Smith to be an apostle, serving in that capacity for three years until he had a falling out with Smith over the Kirtland bank failure. **Significantly, McLellin always retained the same basic religious convictions, such as a firm belief in the Book of Mormon, from 1838 through the rest of his life even though he was no longer a Church member. In fact, he was scandalized by historical claims and doctrinal teachings by later LDS leaders that varied from what had been taught in 1838. According to McLellin—a view similarly expressed by David Whitmer—no one in the 1830s had heard of priesthood being restored to the earth by angels, for instance, or that the angel of Palmyra was Moroni from the Book of Mormon, both key teachings today. In McLellin’s time, these things would have been impossible to conceive of because Church members had not yet learned that angels were resurrected human beings.

McLellin famously attended the Kirtland Temple dedication. Whereas modern Mormon narratives portray it as a new pentecost attended by heavenly beings, including Elijah, Moses, and Jesus, McLellin expressed great disappointment that the promised messengers did not appear. All he observed, he said, was disorderly conduct on the part of people who had come to the event fasting and soon became drunk on the sacrament wine, which was served in individual glasses, refilled frequently throughout the day.

I am not sure that was a response to the question did any of the people you mentioned come back to the Mormon church? I think what you wanted to say is that, yes, many of them returned, never lost their testimony of the Book of Mormon, and repented of their apostasy from their church. It is always much easier to answer questions in an honest manner.

We have nothing to fear from history. We have a great deal to fear from distorting the history of other people. I dislike being put in a position of defending the beliefs of others, but when half-truths are used to distort the beliefs of others I feel compelled to just answer with honesty.

Would you care to explain more about McLellin or do you think this is an honest answer from an honest man?

Parker, we indeed feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit today. More importantly we hear God respond to our prayers. Yet, you stand there and we stand here; why do you think that is?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, we indeed feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit today. More importantly we hear God respond to our prayers. Yet, you stand there and we stand here; why do you think that is?

JeanMichel,

I think it is because God gives to people those blessings that they desire and live for, and answers their sincere prayers related to their own desires, thus preserving free will choice. Thus, the truths they desire to live by and sincerely do live by are the truths they will receive.

This also means they will be inspired to do many good things in their lives, and be a blessing to many people.

 

[rinnie]

Lax16,

As I noted in the post just prior, if you’ll read John 10 you will see that the Savior spoke of being the Good Shepherd and said, “I know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (v. 14, also v. 4) So the Savior has a “voice” for us to hear even today, and His sheep “know his voice”.

He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, so there are two opportunities to “hear” and “feel in the heart” the guidance from these two sources of truth Who attest to the same truths and bring peace, assurance, loving thoughts and desires, forgiveness toward others and toward self, and the desire to continually seek the fountain of all righteousness and be becoming better people day by day.

The Savior is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and the Holy Spirit is the testator and another teacher of truths of the gospel. Both come and provide guidance but not guarantees, since the choice must be made every day: “do I follow Them toward safe pasture, or do I stray off the path toward other voices that call loudly and enticingly?” (See John 10:9, 10)

Parker I agree, Christ speaks today in a voice as he promised. He told his Apostles that he will be sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to speak in my name. He told his Apostles when they receive the Holy Spirit and when THEY speak it is in his voice that they will speak.

The Pope and the Apostles today are still speaking in the voice of Christ as he promised. He promised us that he would be with us until the end of time leading us through the Church, The Church is the Pilar of all truth. He promised us, he would not leave us orphans, he is with us always until the end of time. And he is, he is still leading us by the power of the Sacraments through the Pilar of all truth.

 

[rinnie]

JeanMichel,

I think it is because God gives to people those blessings that they desire and live for, and answers their sincere prayers related to their own desires, thus preserving free will choice. Thus, the truths they desire to live by and sincerely do live by are the truths they will receive.

This also means they will be inspired to do many good things in their lives, and be a blessing to many people.

Parker I must disagree with you here. The Lord never promised us that at all. He never said we will receive the blessings here on this earth. What is said actually is don’t expect much in this world. If the world hated me, it will hate you also. This is not your world anymore then it is my world.

I was taught that you will have what you need in this world, and yes we can have happiness but don’t expect it. Not true happiness, it is not of this world.

And while God does answer our prayers they are not always what we wanted. We don’t always get what we desire in this world, but that is okay, because what makes us hold on is we know in the next world we will receive what we deserve.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker I must disagree with you here. The Lord never promised us that at all. He never said we will receive the blessings here on this earth. What is said actually is don’t expect much in this world. If the world hated me, it will hate you also. This is not your world anymore then it is my world.

I was taught that you will have what you need in this world, and yes we can have happiness but don’t expect it. Not true happiness, it is not of this world.

And while God does answer our prayers they are not always what we wanted. We don’t always get what we desire in this world, but that is okay, because what makes us hold on is we know in the next world we will receive what we deserve.

Hi, Rinnie,

I certainly agree that God does not necessarily answer our prayers in the way we may want, though He does always in the way we need.

I’ll give a personal example. I have a daughter who had a tracheostomy operation just after birth, due to an undeveloped jaw syndrome and no jaw joints. Would I be praying with each operation that it would be successful to the greatest extent possible, that there would be no nerve damage, and that the plan for the tracheostomy to be able to no longer be necessary could come to fruition? Yes, I did. Has my family learned a great many lessons through this challenge in which our prayers haven’t been answered the way we would have wanted? Yes, absolutely. Does it make us less happy? No.

Joseph Smith wrote a teaching that the LDS firmly believe and teach with assurance that it is true:

“Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.”

That’s a pretty big “if”, but I have found this teaching to be true even in this life, and have no qualms about knowing that it is a correct teaching, one understood by living in the crucible of experience.

'Hoping you and your family are doing well, and 'wishing you much happiness, sincerely.

 

[lax16]

I am not sure that was a response to the question did any of the people you mentioned come back to the Mormon church? I think what you wanted to say is that, yes, many of them returned, never lost their testimony of the Book of Mormon, and repented of their apostasy from their church. It is always much easier to answer questions in an honest manner.

Why are you not sure? Highlighted in red is the answer to your question.
I am lettting historians answer your question - why would my opinion matter?
How is that dishonest?
www.signaturebookslibrary.org/essays/mclellin.htm

We have nothing to fear from history. We have a great deal to fear from distorting the history of other people. I dislike being put in a position of defending the beliefs of others, but when half-truths are used to distort the beliefs of others I feel compelled to just answer with honesty.

What are you saying? The text provided is from historians who have written about the life of Mclellin.
What half-truths?

Would you care to explain more about McLellin or do you think this is an honest answer from an honest man?

I would be happy to give you my opinion based on what I have read from historians who have studied him and his writings. I find it very hard to believe that there would be so much disagreement and dissention among the “twelve apostles” who are supposedly the restoration of the church. I find it hard to believe that the bank scandal, disagreements over polygamy etc would be the outcome of men led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

That is correct that if they had allowed themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit, they would not do those things you noted. It was both an initial choice they needed to make (whether they were being sincere in being baptized and making a covenant of repentance and righteousness), and an ongoing choice of whether the Holy Spirit would be their guide, or they would stray from the safe pasture and become sinful. There was no guarantee for them, or anyone that even if they began on the path with the Holy Spirit as their guide, they would continue on the path–because of their free will choice, needed to be exercised every day in righteousness.

So the first apostles of the LDS church were not led by the Holy Spirit?
Did the first LDS apostles make the “ongoing choice of having the Holy Spirit as their guide”?
Why would anyone consider these men to be trustworthy?

This is why covenant making is so important–because if a person has made a covenant decision and has a firm heart-felt determination to keep their covenant, they can look at whatever temptation seems to entice for whatever reason, and remind themselves “I have made a covenant about this, and I am going to keep my covenant.”

Again, fluffy talk.
Did the Apostles chosen by Jesus keep covenants?
Did the LDS apostles keep covenants?

This was also a “new gospel” that the early LDS members were learning about, in that it had not been taught well by the religions they left when they joined the LDS church, in terms of covenant making and ongoing repentance–so the fledgling church had the purging process that was to be expected under these circumstances.

Double Standard. According to you, the LDS church in its beginnings had to go through a purging process.
According to you, the Early Church was apostate when it went through its purging process.
Well Joseph Smith himself said it - the early Mormon church had an apostasy.
What is the difference Parker? Why the double standard?

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

You misunderstood what I had intended to mean about following the Good Shepherd. If you read John 10, you may come to understand that as a person follows the voice of the Good Shepherd, it doesn’t mean they will be prevented from making mistakes–it means they will keep repenting because they are following the Master Teacher who leads them toward repentance and change.

Parker - Again, you allow the mistakes of your early church members but call the early Church Fathers and Christians apostates.

Early LDS members who left the church, including the Three Witnesses, followed the same pattern that I assume would have been similar for early Gentile and Jewish converts in the original church of Jesus Christ, in that there was an ongoing purging process (see Matthew 3:12) which separated the wheat from the chaff–those who were truly following the voice of the Good Shepherd and being purged to become sanctified, versus those who were “in it for the wrong reasons” or became side-tracked by seeking wealth, seeking fame and honor of men, or seeking self-ambition.

Those early LDS members actually witnessed the vision of Jesus Christ himself and the golden tablets, right? And they lost their way - when has anyone ever had a vision of Jesus Christ and then lost faith?
Why would these men who were JS companions and witnesses not continue in their faith if they had those visions? If we can’t trust them - and they have been purged - then how can we trust their visions?

There was also the warning included in John 10 that there are voices of “hirelings” who are not looking out for the sheep but leave them to wander because they are not the true Shepherd and don’t really have the interests of the sheep at heart.

Do you allow for such understanding when discussing the Early Church?

So the refining and purging processes that occurred in the early days of the LDS church history are not only no surprise, but are completely to be expected in such a history for a people who were showing their true hearts as to what voice they were following. As for the inhuman treatment at the hands of mobs–well, that is what mobs end up doing, losing their moral sense and moral compass in a mob.

Only a surprise for the Early Church.
No, not even mobs could EVER keep the early Christians from denouncing their faith and losing their moral sense!! Read the history Parker. They didn’t denounce their faith even when faced with death!!
That is how we know the Early Church was true - nobody lied to save their tail.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

As I noted in the post just prior, if you’ll read John 10 you will see that the Savior spoke of being the Good Shepherd and said, “I know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (v. 14, also v. 4) So the Savior has a “voice” for us to hear even today, and His sheep “know his voice”.

He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, so there are two opportunities to “hear” and “feel in the heart” the guidance from these two sources of truth Who attest to the same truths and bring peace, assurance, loving thoughts and desires, forgiveness toward others and toward self, and the desire to continually seek the fountain of all righteousness and be becoming better people day by day.

The Savior is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and the Holy Spirit is the testator and another teacher of truths of the gospel. Both come and provide guidance but not guarantees, since the choice must be made every day: “do I follow Them toward safe pasture, or do I stray off the path toward other voices that call loudly and enticingly?” (See John 10:9, 10)

Please answer my question.

What happened to the Holy Spirit after the First Apostles died?

 

[KathleenGee]

"What happened to the Holy Spirit when the last apostle died’…is the crux of the whole issue…

And if the Holy Spirit disappeared and there was no official Christianity until Joseph Smith…then how and why and what precisely caused the Lord Jesus Christ to change His mind and remove His spirit and remove Himself from humanity, thus cease be the perfection of hope, redemption, and salvation for mankind???

Did the Heavenly Father make a mistake and reveal His Son at the wrong time…

How do we discern the truth?

Who do we believe?..the Apostolic Church or Joseph Smith?

 

[lax16]

from lds.org:

Incorrect Practices
During the Apostasy, many ordinances were altered or added without proper authority. The church allowed infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling or pouring, instead of by immersion. Pagan influences and philosophies of the time crept into the church—such as burning incense, celibacy (the clergy remaining unmarried), and the belief that the body was evil and that God did not have a body. The honoring of martyrs turned to superstition and worship.

Because of the wickedness within the church, **the gifts of the Spirit ceased **and people began to deny true spiritual gifts. Without revelation, church organization changed through the government of men, instead of through inspiration from God. Church offices were bought, sold, and voted on.

 

[RebeccaJ]

from lds.org:

Incorrect Practices
During the Apostasy, many ordinances were altered or added without proper authority. The church allowed infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling or pouring, instead of by immersion. Pagan influences and philosophies of the time crept into the church—such as burning incense, celibacy (the clergy remaining unmarried), and the belief that the body was evil and that God did not have a body. The honoring of martyrs turned to superstition and worship.

Because of the wickedness within the church, **the gifts of the Spirit ceased **and people began to deny true spiritual gifts. Without revelation, church organization changed through the government of men, instead of through inspiration from God. Church offices were bought, sold, and voted on.

Oh that’s it for me, I’m going Mormon now!

 

[KathleenGee]

Oh dear…

A good example of Peter John was referring to about the lies he was taught about Catholicism…

 

[SteveVH]

Oh that’s it for me, I’m going Mormon now!

My heart is burning now. I’m not sure whether to reach for the rolaids or join you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Could comment more but won’t…need to go out for a drive…serious!

 

[Stephen168]

from lds.org:

Incorrect Practices
During the Apostasy, many ordinances were altered or added without proper authority. The church allowed infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling or pouring, instead of by immersion. Pagan influences and philosophies of the time crept into the church—such as burning incense, celibacy (the clergy remaining unmarried), and the belief that the body was evil and that God did not have a body. The honoring of martyrs turned to superstition and worship.

Because of the wickedness within the church, the gifts of the Spirit ceased and people began to deny true spiritual gifts. Without revelation, church organization changed through the government of men, instead of through inspiration from God. Church offices were bought, sold, and voted on.

Here we go back to the authority that the Catholic Bishops had then as they do to this day. The Mormon Church changes teachings all the time without authority.

 

[ParkerD]

So the first apostles of the LDS church were not led by the Holy Spirit?

Lax16,

Hello, again.

The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else. It was always dependent on individual righteousness and not losing sight of the fact that Christ is the head of the church, and guides people based on their righteous desires and righteous covenant-making. Some apostles lost the Spirit due to confusion about the very thing you ask a question about, and thinking that Joseph Smith and any decision he either made or allowed others to make who were “leaders” would be completely infallible. This was an incorrect assumption. He sometimes received poor advice from attorneys, for one thing.

Did the first LDS apostles make the “ongoing choice of having the Holy Spirit as their guide”?

Some didn’t, no.

Why would anyone consider these men to be trustworthy?

People would need to base their personal view on coming to know the person–not making an assumption based on a calling. Also, doing their own “homework” about such assumptions as banking and not speculating on land prices.

Again, fluffy talk.

I have realized some think those kinds of ideas that are spoken so highly of in the Bible are “fluffy talk.” I sincerely find them to be true.

Did the Apostles chosen by Jesus keep covenants?

Yes.

Did the LDS apostles keep covenants?

Some not.

Double Standard. According to you, the LDS church in its beginnings had to go through a purging process.
According to you, the Early Church was apostate when it went through its purging process.

No–both purging processes dealt with issues of individuals losing the Spirit through personal unrighteousness or through following others who were “hirelings” rather than following the voice of the Good Shepherd.

Well Joseph Smith himself said it - the early Mormon church had an apostasy.
What is the difference Parker? Why the double standard?

I don’t view that process as a “double standard” at all. Loss of the Holy Spirit happens when there is personal unrighteousness of the person who may even have originally had the Holy Spirit guiding earlier decisions in their life–absolutely a given.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t view that process as a “double standard” at all. Loss of the Holy Spirit happens when there is** personal unrighteousness** of the person who may even have originally had the Holy Spirit guiding earlier decisions in their life–absolutely a given.

Therefore; there was never an apostasy of the Catholic Church.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - Again, you allow the mistakes of your early church members but call the early Church Fathers and Christians apostates.

I have never called them “apostates”. I only use that term when someone else uses the term. I don’t think of it as an “apostasy”. I think of it as losing the focus on the living Christ, the Good Shepherd, and on losing the focus on desiring the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit through either personal unrighteousness or through following leaders who had let other desires cloud their keeping the Spirit, just as Paul and John wrote about repeatedly.

Those early LDS members actually witnessed the vision of Jesus Christ himself and the golden tablets, right?

Oliver Cowdery had a vision that included seeing Christ, in the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836–the day when Elijah the Prophet returned fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi. He also saw the golden tablets, as did David Whitmer who left and Martin Harris who left but later rejoined the LDS church and is buried in Utah. Oliver Cowdery also rejoined the LDS church later in his life.

And they lost their way - when has anyone ever had a vision of Jesus Christ and then lost faith?

Thomas lost faith, and doubted the resurrection. Judas Iscariot lost his way and his faith. A vision can be more like a “stumbling block” than a “stepping stone” if the person needs marvelous manifestations rather than the simple burning in their bosom to preserve their testimony and increase their faith.

Why would these men who were JS companions and witnesses not continue in their faith if they had those visions? If we can’t trust them - and they have been purged - then how can we trust their visions?

I meant that they were purged by having their hearts tried by circumstances that tested whether they really would keep their covenants, and they didn’t keep their covenants so they were “purged” out of the church, by their own choosing. Free will choice was theirs, and they lost the Spirit and thus their calling for various reasons one can read about.

Do you allow for such understanding when discussing the Early Church?

I really do think the falling away was due to a few key leaders, and also due to the church growing so fast that holding fast to the pure doctrines was virtually impossible for the apostles to administer in every place where the church had members. That would be why there was so much dissension and disagreement over doctrine that eventuated the Nicene Council called by Constantine.

That is how we know the Early Church was true

I understand that this is a “proof” for some, but I don’t think of the fact that a person dies for their beliefs as making those beliefs perfectly true in every respect. We simply disagree about what it shows.

 

[ParkerD]

Please answer my question.

What happened to the Holy Spirit after the First Apostles died?

I would think it is a safe assumption (not being there to see the effects) that some had the Holy Spirit with them, and others didn’t. The more the dissension, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit among the members. The more a leader tried to dissipate the free will choice of the members, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit by such a leader and any followers of this kind of practice.