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RebeccaJ
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Yeah, I don’t think most mormons understand the seer stone…certainly it isn’t something taught in mormon Sunday school. It gives a whole new meaning to “prophet, seer and revelator”.
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Answersplease
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ParkerD
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Kikkichan,
I haven’t read any scripture in the Bible that indicated that the words in Genesis 1:26-27 were not to be taken literally–particularly when viewed from the standpoint that Christ talked about being like His Father, and that humankind are the “offspring” of God.
I suppose you look at the Universe and think that God made this wonderful universe and designed all of the intricate systems including the relationships between male and female, from a sort of “blank sheet of paper” or in other words, starting from nothing. Since my view is completely different than that, and I look at the Universe as explainable based on laws that God not only established because He is ultimate Truth, but also follows because He has ultimate knowledge of what will work to make a balanced set of systems working together for the benefit of all Creation, then I suppose there would be a very different approach to thinking about why God organized the Universe we live in and sent the spirits of humankind to live upon it and become stewards of the earth He created/organized for His loving purposes. I look at the wonders of DNA and so forth as manifestations of God’s omniscience and majesty, but also as manifestations that God has created order in a way that matches what He is and what He does, and how the Universe is ordered testifies of how He is. That would include the fact that He placed Eve on the earth as an “help meet” for Adam (Genesis 2:18)–or in other words, an help that was both necessary and requisite for Adam’s benefit and progress as a “son of God”. (see Genesis 6:2)
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
I’ve been trying to figure out what question you had specifically asked me, and I suppose this was one.
If you will picture in your mind the spirits in the spirit world, as looking like people on earth, and having relationships that include conversing with each other and being able from time to time to watch their posterity on the earth, then move that picture forward to the point in time of the resurrection of those spirits (say, your great-great-grandparents). Now, imagine that one of the lines of your ancestors had a descendant who had at some point joined the Mormon church and stayed active to the point of becoming interested in genealogy and temple work, and that they completed the temple work for those great-great-grandparents. They already have a loving association in the spirit world. The man uses his priesthood authority, under the ultimate authority of Jesus Christ, to bless his wife with entrance into the Celestial resurrection with him in their covenant marriage relationship by providing the sure pattern designated by God to show that the couple has complied with their covenants, and it includes the use of a symbolic “name”.
The more important issues than the symbolic “name” are the love within the marriage and the covenant making and covenant keeping that can be done in this world (or in the spirit world as spirits become aware of the need to do that). The covenant keeping involves unselfish and uplifting love, personal and familial repentance and forgiveness through the atonement of Christ, and becoming singularly focused on blessing the life of the spouse in every helpful way.
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
Perhaps the following was another question you had that you had felt wasn’t adequately answered:
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
This teaching of being “joint-heirs” matches closely with the teachings of John in the Book of Revelation and in his epistles:
Revelation 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Jn. 5: 4-5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev. 21: 7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The promises are plain to understand if they are allowed to be plain, and to mean what they say.
Perhaps the following was another question you had that you had felt wasn’t adequately answered:
Xavierlives noted in response:
Here are the verses from Romans about being “joint-heirs”:
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
This teaching of being “joint-heirs” matches closely with the teachings of John in the Book of Revelation and in his epistles:
Revelation 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Jn. 5: 4-5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev. 21: 7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The promises are plain to understand if they are allowed to be plain, and to mean what they say.
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Xavierlives
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Well, there has three basic issues (but I think you had one, Diana had one a Zer had one) but I can’t remember which had which (I have it saved at the office).
But is is either:
A. Seeing God
- Moses says no one has seen God.
- God has said no one has seen God.
- Jesus said no once has seen God (except the sone)
- John says we are Jesus’s seed.
- How can we be equal but lesser?
Scriptures will follow.
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
I’ll wait until you provide the scriptures you would like to understand before responding to your question A.
Your question B: Those who gain the joint throne will have done so through and only through Christ and His loving, redeeming atonement, and will have kept their covenants with Him thus allowing eternal law to be exercised in their behalf to be spiritually changed so that they are truly, spiritually, a “new creature” and continue as such in a pattern of spiritual progress; and thus they are a “spiritual seed” of Christ because He has “fathered” their redemption and their spiritual progression (sanctification).
It’s an interesting question, since in our world a seed if planted and nourished becomes what its’ “parent” is. Perhaps the right question a sincere searcher will ask is “when does a seed not become what its parent was?”
You question C:
One should read and re-read John chapter 5 many times. Verse 18 bears on the topic of whose Son Jesus is, literally. Verse 19 attests that Jesus “can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:” Thus Jesus is not originating His works or His teachings–He testifies that He is doing precisely what He has “seen” His Father do. This of course goes along with His teaching that He knows and does His Father’s will in all things. (v. 30) It also ties with v. 31 and v. 36. His works witness that He was sent by His Father; the Father witnesses to an earnest seeker after truth that He was sent by His Father (v. 37); the scriptures bear witness of Him when those who read the scriptures have that “word” abiding in them, including the testimony and teachings of Moses. (v. 38-39 and v. 47)
One would do well to cross reference John 5:23 with the parable in Matthew 21:33-44.
One who reads the Bible sincerely and reads the other witness and testifier of Christ I had noted when I answered this question before, can receive the same kind of witness that Jesus said those whom He addressed in John 5 needed to receive. It is an heavenly witness–the kind of witness Peter had received about the divine Son of God.
Peace to all, and indeed do “search the scriptures” and love them.
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Tamarack
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Parker,
This is probably not the question you are trying to retrieve, but I’d still like to know your thoughts:
This is probably not the question you are trying to retrieve, but I’d still like to know your thoughts:
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ParkerD
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Tamarack
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Parker,
Thanks for explaining. So is it your belief that while being in Christ’s presence will be inexplicably joyful, the joy in heaven will also derive from the satisfaction of pleasing God with a job well-done (having kept covenants, born fruit etc.), a job that continues in heaven?
For Catholics, there is one true, complete joy to look forward to: being in the presence of God. Everything else is subsumed in that.
That’s why I have difficulty with your initial comment that there’s “far more to joy than being in the presence of Christ.”
Peace to you
Thanks for explaining. So is it your belief that while being in Christ’s presence will be inexplicably joyful, the joy in heaven will also derive from the satisfaction of pleasing God with a job well-done (having kept covenants, born fruit etc.), a job that continues in heaven?
For Catholics, there is one true, complete joy to look forward to: being in the presence of God. Everything else is subsumed in that.
That’s why I have difficulty with your initial comment that there’s “far more to joy than being in the presence of Christ.”
Peace to you
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ParkerD
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Tamarack
I wouldn’t use the term “a job well-done” or “a job that continues in heaven.” I look at a fullness of joy as more than doing a “job”–it is about a kind of life, a life of being and doing that is completely joyful because one is involved in bringing about the development of others in a more expansive role than just being a “helper”.
Joy is always going to be other-centered as well as Christ-centered, but having a fullness of joy or in other words, the joy the Lord has means doing the kinds of works the Lord does (not the great work of the atonement, but a Creation role and an expanded role of nurturing and developing other spirits). But this kind of role will only come to those who desire such a role, because the Lord does not give to someone that which they do not want or do not ask for or live to receive. The scripture, “Ask and ye shall receive” also means “If ye do not ask, ye will not receive that for which ye do not ask.” If a person does ask to be guided toward a fullness of joy, then that means they will be completely malleable to the Lord’s shaping and guidance in how to receive that as they continue to ask for it. This will lead to a life of much change, and will be fully attuned to Biblical teachings including the knowledge that God did indeed give Adam and Eve an eternal marriage covenant.
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RebeccaJ
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So, you believe God only does what He is asked to do?
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ParkerD
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Hi, RebeccaJ,
God does what is best for humankind at every moment in time. If it is best for humankind that they have the condition of needing to ask for a blessing in order to receive that blessing, then such a condition is for their best good. When Christ taught, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:” then He was teaching an absolutely essential doctrine of salvation and of the opportunity of exaltation.
One can expand the principle of there needing to be an asking process, if one looks at how prophets interacted with God as written in the Bible and how Christ interacted with God in prayer. A prophet or the shepherds of Israel can ask God in behalf of the welfare of others with whom they have stewardship from God. But in that role, the principle of asking is still in place. Abraham did that, Moses did that, and other prophets followed the same pattern.
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RebeccaJ
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Jesus taught us that God is there for us. God is what is required for salvation. He did this for us, humans who sin. Who defy God. It is not required that we ask Him for Salvation. He has already given it to us.
It is Jesus who acts on our behalf. Look to the Cross to understand this.
You also ignore people such as Paul of Tarsus, who was acting completely against the will of God. Yet, Jesus (who acts on our behalf), turned him to His purpose.
All in all ParkerD, you describe God as some sort of divine vending machine. Put something in, and something comes out.
God acts out of love. Out of perfect Charity. Because that is Who He IS. Perfect Charity requires nothing in return.
Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. This is calling us to act in the same manner. Jesus teaches this clearly when He taught us the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as you do yourself.
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ParkerD
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Rebecca,
I think we are not talking the same language. I cited Matthew 7:7. To describe that process as one of a vending machine, is certainly descriptive and may suit your purpose, but Jesus was teaching a principle far beyond the level of a “vending machine.”
I don’t think of Saul as an example everyone should try and emulate, but Saul’s case certainly disproves that God always responds to one person in the way that particular person is expecting, since Saul thought he was pleasing God by persecuting the members of the church of Christ. I would fully expect that Peter and the other apostles were praying that people like Saul and likely Saul himself (perhaps even by specific mention of his name in their prayers) would come to their senses and stop the persecution. In the case of Saul, God heard the prayers of the righteous members of the church and of the apostles.
I disagree about the notion that “it is not required that we ask Him for salvation.” To ask God for mercy is to ask for salvation from sin. The whole gospel is a gospel built upon asking for salvation, and to be led where salvation leads.
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ParkerD
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RebeccaJ,
I should not have brushed aside the analogy of a “divine vending machine”, and apologize for having done that, although you didn’t mean that was an analogy that was acceptable. If you meant a set of causes brings a set of effects that are predictable and attainable, then I guess the “vending machine” analogy is a rough way of describing that. Inner desires would be one of those major “causes”, and the effect is that a person gets (when all is said and done, and the person is at judgment day), what they most fervently desired with their inmost heart during the course of their life and showed by both their actions and their prayers (asking).
In other words, the verses are absolutely true in Revelation 22:11-12 that say “and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Also, Revelation 3:18-21 which can be cross referenced with Isaiah 55:1-3 is absolutely true, in that Christ offers,
“I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,…and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
There are conditions to the ultimate blessings Christ offers. Complying with the conditions brings the blessings, and there is no uncertainty about it. If an analogy of a “divine vending machine” (although mundane) works for someone in the context of those verses describing cause and effect relationships, then that is one way to look at it.
I should not have brushed aside the analogy of a “divine vending machine”, and apologize for having done that, although you didn’t mean that was an analogy that was acceptable. If you meant a set of causes brings a set of effects that are predictable and attainable, then I guess the “vending machine” analogy is a rough way of describing that. Inner desires would be one of those major “causes”, and the effect is that a person gets (when all is said and done, and the person is at judgment day), what they most fervently desired with their inmost heart during the course of their life and showed by both their actions and their prayers (asking).
In other words, the verses are absolutely true in Revelation 22:11-12 that say “and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Also, Revelation 3:18-21 which can be cross referenced with Isaiah 55:1-3 is absolutely true, in that Christ offers,
“I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,…and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
There are conditions to the ultimate blessings Christ offers. Complying with the conditions brings the blessings, and there is no uncertainty about it. If an analogy of a “divine vending machine” (although mundane) works for someone in the context of those verses describing cause and effect relationships, then that is one way to look at it.
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
I suppose you had a change of plans, but if you return to this thread I have decided to try and answer this final unanswered question of yours (instead of needing to check back here from time to time).
I am going to try and figure out which verses in the Bible you were referring to:
1 and 2.
Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
12 And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Explanation:
I suppose you have noticed the contradiction in meanings between verse 11 and verse 20. The meaning is not clear as to why when Moses asked to see “thy glory”, the Lord’s response was “Thou canst not see my face.” Yet verse 11 had said Moses had already seen his face and spoken with Him face to face. Verses 20-23 as compared with verse 11 sound like there is a condition of the glory of the Lord that cannot be seen my “man.” But the entire passage is inconclusive as to whether any mortal man could speak face to face with the Lord.
- The apostle John wrote as follows:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
The context of these verses make it seem important that there is a distinction between the “sons of God” who “believe on his name” because they were “born” of God and not of the “will of the flesh, nor the will of man” and those who are not the “sons of God” but are natural man.
Verse 18 shows that the Son declares the Father, and that no “man” hath seen the Father.
Joseph Smith declared that he saw God the Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and both spoke to him and knew him by name. I think it was important that this happen because of the confusion that had arisen among humankind as to the nature of God and the description of God.
I think there is a level of uncertainty within the passages above as to what was really being said. Obviously, after Christ had risen and when He appeared to many, many people as the risen Lord in all His resurrected glory, then men were seeing and being allowed to see God the Son in His glorified condition. They would have needed to be believers on His name, and have been “born of God” to see the face of the risen, glorified Christ.
So I think both passages are inconclusive as to demonstrating that there is no possibility and no purpose in the Father and the Son having appeared to the boy, Joseph Smith, in 1820. It was a unique situation–completely unique from Old Testament times and from New Testament times. There was a unique need for establishing truths about God and our relationship to Him, that had been lost to the world.
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Tamarack
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Xavierlives
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No. No change of plans. Just not a lot of time this weekend (I am probably going to have to cut back on CAF after this wave). But I think I do it tomorrow. I am beat after a long day. I’ll read your response and reply tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
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jpaul1953
Guest
Parker D,
The Catholic Church put the NT together. Do you really think that the Church would have stayed together if it realized in it’s own NT that it had fallen away. BTW, when did Jesus actually say the apostolic succession is absolutely necessary. He didn’t. He only said develop my Church which the Catholic Church did and still does. So where exactly is this apostacy that now legitmizes the Mormon Church to be the one True Church that even Jesus can’t have His own planet to be the God over since he was never married. Not Moses, not Paul, not John. not a whole bunch of wonderful Saints who have fallen just short of being a Mormon God by not marrying.
To the best of my knowledge God has never said He is married. Isn’t that funny.
So who’s apostacising. Funny how people just seem to see things differently.
Please allow God to guide you to the one and only Truth. I know you mean well and am probably a great disciple of your faith, but please cut out this stuff about a MAKE BELIEVE APOSTACY. It makes no sense to anyone else but you’all.
YOUR FAITH HAS GOT MANY CRACKS IN IT Like from the start , the American Indians are actually nomadic Jews who came across Russia to Alaska to the USA, while carrying the lost Tablets of Moses. Now where is the proof of this inflamation of the truth.
Knock until the door is answered.
with respect,
jpaul1953
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