P
PRmerger
Guest
Since I gave you the link, and you can cut and paste, it would be helpful if you could offer the paragraph from the encyclical that maintains this. Thanks.
- Status
Stephen168
New member
Which has nothing to do with Catholic oral tradition.
Try this game:
Put 100 people in a room and one guy explains something. They spend three years discussing with the guy. Then the guy leaves. Two new guys walks in the room and the 99 people explain it to the new guys. The new guys ask questions and get answers. Then a year later one guys leaves. Two new guys walk in and the 100 explain it to the new guys…2000 years later a new guys walks in the room and the 4000 explain it to him, he asks questions and gets answers. That is Catholic oral tradition.
Or the Mormon game:
Put 100 people in a room and one guy explains something. They spend 15 years discussing with the guy. Then the guy leaves. A new guys walks in the room. The oldest guy in the room takes charge and tells them something new and contrary to the first guy.
C
Crescentinus
Guest
P
PRmerger
Guest
Love it!
Except, I might amend it to: Put 12 men in a room and one guy explains something.
Stephen168
New member
I believe that is another recent change in Mormon teaching.
J
JHow
Guest
Bruce McConkie had some thoughts on this topic, but he has been thrown under the bus.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Then you should re-read it because it quite clearly says otherwise.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
K
KathleenGee
Guest
In earliest times…consider persecutions, Christianity having many times to come together in worship underground. That happened literally in Rome in the ancient catacombs. The pagan Romans were afraid to go down into the graves of the dead, but that is where the Light of Christ came into the world.
You have to look at context. And you also have to realize the increasing demolition of the ancient Roman empire by barbarian invasions. Bringing a child into a world like that makesk many reasonable person think twice. In ancient times, sex was primarily used for procreation among Christians.
You have to look at context. And you also have to realize the increasing demolition of the ancient Roman empire by barbarian invasions. Bringing a child into a world like that makesk many reasonable person think twice. In ancient times, sex was primarily used for procreation among Christians.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Going back to when the apostasy began…we have to consider the words of the Apostles…consider the 2nd Letter of St. Peter where he exhorts the faithful to not listen to anyone except the apostles who were appointed before their time to be chosen witnesses of the Lord, and to transmit the faith to the world…all founded on Peter.
Likewise, St. Paul exhorted us not to listen to any angel or else he be declared anathema.
An apostasy began in recent times when people were not drawn to the teachings of Christ by the apostles but instead wanted to believe in some recent angel.
Following individual men who did not know Christ, following some unknown angel 1800 years later is apostasy and is anathema.
Likewise, St. Paul exhorted us not to listen to any angel or else he be declared anathema.
An apostasy began in recent times when people were not drawn to the teachings of Christ by the apostles but instead wanted to believe in some recent angel.
Following individual men who did not know Christ, following some unknown angel 1800 years later is apostasy and is anathema.
P
Porknpie
Guest
P
pablope
Guest
Read this too…ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm
Z
Z_Ninja
Guest
are you of the thought that it was a good thing that Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of knowledge? that it was what God wanted in order for them to gain the knowledge of how to procreate and to be fruitful and multiply?
whose worldly thought makes sex out to be a dirty thing? Society seems to be making promiscuity the norm and making it okay to have sex before marriage. so I don’t even see the world view of sex being something that is dirty.
no one here ever said sex was nasty or gross or sinful or wrong. Procreation is the primary reason for sex, but not the only. there is a unitive aspect as well. but others have already given more information.
Z
Z_Ninja
Guest
Why is it that whenever there is talk about Catholic Oral Tradition, the telephone game is brought up?
Oral tradition is definitely better than none, AND it is not the only. Written text is also better than none, but it is also not the only. We have been given Oral Tradition + Scriptures.
You’ve also accused the Catholic Church from removing important and precious things, I still ask, what specifically was removed. But then again, that can’t be said because it was Luther that removed those books when they didn’t agree with his theology.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Just a bit of time spent thinking about human history and the huge amount of it that was with out writing should leave one with respect for oral teaching. I find the “telephone game” argument weak, and dismissive of the people who worked hard to pass on the things they learned. The people who passed on knowledge both of the world around them and of God were not little children playing a game, they took it very seriously. Equating oral tradition with a child’s game is a silly light-weight move.
F
Fatboys
Guest
It is within my temperment to be rude and nasty. And believe me there is more history in the Catholic church to bring this to the front. I have refrained from making comments like those that have been pointed at the LDS church. As one person has replied. I am a farmer, but also a rancher. I use to run a lot of cattle as well as farmed. I have been run over by cows who thought they were protecting their calves many times. I have bull dogged cows and calves. I have roped, thrown and branded thousands of head of cattle. I also had older brothers who were rough and I had to learn to fight to survive. I am not afraid of a fight. I also grew up poor due to circumstances of grandfather, and his brother. But on thing my parents did make sure we did, was go to school, and college. I majored in plant Science, focusing on genetic traits of wheat. Triticum Aestivum. My specific focus on wheat was resistant wheat to rust. My last year of college was in 1975. Because of some quarters I had missed over the fours years I went, I lacked two quarters from graduating in that field before I decided to go on a mission. I had been inactive in the LDS church for all of my life. I was approached by two evangelicals who started to teach me about their views of Christ. And they had also taught many things about the LDS church which I had never heard, or really never cared about. I had never really believed there was a God let alone a Christ. Even though they were saying some really bad things about a religion I was a member of and knew nothing about it ticked me off. Why on earth would they even mention any of these things in the first place. I thought that if they wanted to teach me about what they believed fine, but why attack others? Anyway I was pretty embarrassed that I knew so little about the church I had been a member of all my life. Before and during this time I was a hippi as well. Long straight greasy hair. We use to run cattle up on the US forest in the mountains. When we would move them or round them up, I would put my hair in a pony tail and put my cowboy hat on and got the nick name of Geronimo. Many of the young cowboys wouldn’t ride with me because they were afraid I was going to attack them I guess. Anyway after being embarassed I decided to do some research in religion. I could not believe how many religions there were. I knew there were alot, but not thousands and thousands of them. I thought why? Of course I had heard of Catholics, but I had never heard of methodists, or pentecostals. So I had my work cut out for me. As I studied some, it just didn’t sound right. I had a friend that was my age who had left on his mission, and had returned. We were talking about religion and I told him what I had been doing. He said have you looked at the mormon church? I said, I am already a member. He said you don’t know anything about what we believe. And that was true. And so he gave me some reading material. So I did some studying. It sounded a little to be true. I mean I had been to fast sundays where members get up and said the knew the church was true. It really use to just tick me off. They would be up their crying and couldn’t get their words out, and I would just think they were all show. How could they know the church was true? God hasn’t told me. Well low and behold some of the material my friend gave me said that if one wants to know truth from God, all one has to do is ask God. That if one reads things of God and ask if they were true, the Holy Ghost would reveal the truth of it. I thought Naw. I had prayed before. God never answered one of my prayers. Still I did want to know. So one night after I had gotten home from college, I reached up and took down the Book of Mormon. The pamplet my friend had given to me had some references. I had no idea how to look them up so I just opened up the book and started to read. All of a sudden words started to jump off the page. JESUS CHRIST. REPENT, LIGHT OF CHRIST, THE ATONEMENT, FORGIVENESS. Well this startled me, and I slammed the book shut and put it back on the shelf. I did not return to it for another month. When I really wanted to know. So I got the book off the shelf again and opened it making sure in my mind that I didn’t open back up in the same spot. As I started to read again, once again these same words jumped right off the page. I knew I had to ask God if these things were true. I got on my kness, and asked, " God if you are real please let me know if these things I have been reading are not only important but are the things that I should learn more about. Is this book really your words for us? Is there really one religion that can claim to be right out of all the others? I am not a great man or a spiritual giant. But God revealed to me through the power of Holy Ghost that what I was reading was his word. I can not deny it. If I did, I would be in the judgement of God for I would be mocking him.
So you can see that I do not rely on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon for knowing that a restoration took place. Revelation to me personally is how I know. It is the same way that anyone has to know what is truth or not truth. So because my strong suit is not grammer or english, it does mean I am any weaker spiritually for it.
F
Fatboys
Guest
Because oral traditions get watered down, twisted and bare little resemblance to what was original.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
You should do some research into oral tradition.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Again, the problem is that in order to believe there was a restoration, you have to first believe that there was an apostasy, and in order to believe there was an apostasy, you have to believe that God threw billions of people into hell during the middle ages because all they could be was Catholic.
Just by reading that, you know that God would never do such a thing. So if there was no apostasy, how can there be a restoration?
So, from an objective standpoint, this “personal revelation” based on “feeling” the “Holy Ghost” (it wasn’t the real One) has all the truth value of a Planned Parenthood commercial. You can only feel “personal revelation” when watching a PP commercial if you block out the millions of dead babies. Likewise, you can only feel “personal revelation” about the “restoration” if you block out the millions of souls that would be in hell if there was the alleged apostasy that existed before the alleged restoration.
But the **Holy Ghost **certainly doesn’t block either of them out. The dead babies are real. And so are the millions of souls. Thankfully, the Holy Ghost saved both of them; the former because they are martyrs; the latter because they are Catholic. And that is why the Holy Ghost can’t turn around and tell you to be a Mormon; there was no apostasy and thus nothing to restore and no restoration.
What you felt was suggestion, not the Holy Ghost.
- Status