LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Jerusha]

Of course, but Porknpie in a tries to use this very scripture as evidence against the LDS church. I see it as supporting our stance.

But Mormonism is a Gnostic religion, which amazon.com/Restoring-Ancient-Church-Joseph-Christianity/dp/1893036006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353544484&sr=8-1&keywords=Barry+Bickmore+Restoring+the+Ancient+Church
does an excellent job of proving-- from your religious perspective.

 

[PRmerger]

Then why does anyone need to be baptized? Couldn’t I just present myself to God and say I choose him?

Because grace helps us say yes to God. Without it we may not say yes to the Gospel when it’s presented to us.

And we receive grace through baptism.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Indeed, but not before it was spoken. You of course will disagree that Moroni visited Joseph at all, oh well.

It can’t reasonably been seen as a fulfilled prophesy if the first public declaration of it is after the fact.

 

[SteveVH]

JS was already well know for good and evil by the time this prophesy was written.

Okay.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, I disagree with your characterization of Joseph but I will not derail this thread on the issue. Also, I hope you are not comparing LDS faithful to followers of these tyrants. This statement is simply unfair.

Of course not. I would say that the LDS faithful are followers of a false prophet. The fact that he is both hated and revered does not make him special, that is all I am trying to say. I thought I had explained myself and did not mean any offense.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would like to understand why the Mormons would believe there was hardly any true Christianity or any true teaching until Joseph Smith came…and then he created a totally different goal for mankind, as well as reinterpreting alot that does not speak much of God.

 

[Porknpie]

We know that. The Gnostics started co-opting Christianity very early. Nothing new with that.

Agree, nothing new. It’s been wack a mole from the beginning but the Church has refuted all the heresies that pop up and have come its way.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m not quite seeing the justification here. Of course Jesus would have all men be saved. But of course they have free will to choose.

They **DON’T HAVE FREE WILL IF THE TRUTH IS NOT AVAILABLE **for them to choose. That’s the problem with the LDS position–it posits a total apostasy in which THE TRUTH WAS NOT AVAILABLE for more than a thousand years!

:banghead:

Shouldn’t all be allowed to accept or reject the gospel message?

EXACTLY! Which is impossible if there’s a great apostasy. That’s why there wasn’t one, and since the LDS faith relies on there being one, we know the LDS “gospel” is not the truth.

 

[CopticChristian]

I presuppose nothing. God has already decided how one is to be saved and it is through baptism of water and the spirit.

“Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

To say such is not required would be to persuppose on God.

Jan,

God chases man…calls man…man responds…this is the paradigm of belief in any notion of God…that response has taken various forms as seen in the OT…While the Church is the means by which all are saved through Baptism it does not negate the calling of all men and the response of all men…The true Church recognizes Baptism of Desire because all men…circumcized of the heart may be baptized of the heart and even absent the formal sacrament are children of God…as He sees fit…see here…

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm

Believing that God has the ability to save those he wishes to save as he chooses to save including those that are aware of who Christ is and who recognize and recieve the trinitarin Baptism of water is recognizing the soveriegnty of God…so while you may believe that you must baptize the dead, this is nonsense, and in fact if you are baptizing them absent the trinitarian formula then all you are doing is humoring yourself.

Have you been baptized in the trinitarian formula?

 

[Janderich]

They **DON’T HAVE FREE WILL IF THE TRUTH IS NOT AVAILABLE **for them to choose. That’s the problem with the LDS position–it posits a total apostasy in which THE TRUTH WAS NOT AVAILABLE for more than a thousand years!

:banghead:

EXACTLY! Which is impossible if there’s a great apostasy. That’s why there wasn’t one, and since the LDS faith relies on there being one, we know the LDS “gospel” is not the truth.

But do you not see that even if the truth was on the earth continually since Jesus lived that many people still did not hear it? It appears that it is either a mystery as to how they are saved or that their whole lives boil down to simply saying “yes” to Christ at the judgment bar.To say it is a mystery is to say you don’t know. To say it is a simple “yes” is to make a mockery of those who work so hard here on the earth to be saved.

 

[KathleenGee]

People not hearing the truth of Christ???

This is what insults Catholics and Protestants in general. This kind of thinking is what is so incredulous about Mormonism.

All about golden plates and papyrus, and men becoming gods and having numerous wives and spirit children…?? This has nothing to do with Christ and the Gospel.

If you think no truth was taught by the universal Catholic Church for 2,000 years…I mean, what can any one say…I do not understand your reasoning or that of Mormonism to say such a thing. To say no truth was taught until Mormonism is the work of a cult.

Cults are not based on the truth of God, of Christ, of who we are before God.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

God chases man…calls man…man responds…this is the paradigm of belief in any notion of God…that response has taken various forms as seen in the OT…While the Church is the means by which all are saved through Baptism it does not negate the calling of all men and the response of all men…The true Church recognizes Baptism of Desire because all men…circumcized of the heart may be baptized of the heart and even absent the formal sacrament are children of God…as He sees fit…see here…

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm

Believing that God has the ability to save those he wishes to save as he chooses to save including those that are aware of who Christ is and who recognize and recieve the trinitarin Baptism of water is recognizing the soveriegnty of God…so while you may believe that you must baptize the dead, this is nonsense, and in fact if you are baptizing them absent the trinitarian formula then all you are doing is humoring yourself.

Have you been baptized in the trinitarian formula?

What a funny question. To Catholic faithful it clearly does not matter if one is baptized in the trinitarian formula or not. I can have the baptisim of desire or simply say “yes I want to be saved” when I see Christ after death. None of these require such a “formula”.

But to answer your question more directly, the LDS are baptized in the “name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” I would never term it the trinitarian formula but there was quite a debate on this form as to why it was not recognized by the Catholic church. I of course don’t care either way.

 

[CopticChristian]

What a funny question. To Catholic faithful it clearly does not matter if one is baptized in the trinitarian formula or not. I can have the baptisim of desire or simply say “yes I want to be saved” when I see Christ after death. None of these require such a “formula”.

But to answer your question more directly, the LDS are baptized in the “name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” I would never term it the trinitarian formula but there was quite a debate on this form as to why it was not recognized by the Catholic church. I of course don’t care either way.

Jan,

You find eternal life and the possibility of losing the hope of eternal life funny? How odd.

It matters. You do not understand. Paul tells the Christians in Rome that the Gentiles without the law are circumcised of the heart and the law is written on their heart. Without the law they are a law unto themselves. It is true there are those that have not heard, have not seen the opportunity, nor will they to see and hear what you have seen. Yet, as Abraham was told…Yaweh Yireh…that was soon translated Jerusalem…God will Provide…God takes care of His creation…

You voice, yes you want to be saved…you are aware of the One Church, you have heard the One Truth, You have been told that there is necessity to be Baptized in the Trinitarian formula, you acknowledge that your baptism does not qualify…,

Intentions are everything…You do not intend to hear what is that is said…you choose not to acknowledge the call…you are aware of what it is that should be known and since you choose to believe that your foreign notion of Baptism as you have said has no validity…you exempt yourself from the desire by your own stubborness…

You have chosen…and God responds…He will relentlessly chase you…

 

[Janderich]

People not hearing the truth of Christ???

This is what insults Catholics and Protestants in general. This kind of thinking is what is so incredulous about Mormonism.

All about golden plates and papyrus, and men becoming gods and having numerous wives and spirit children…?? This has nothing to do with Christ and the Gospel.

If you think no truth was taught by the universal Catholic Church for 2,000 years…I mean, what can any one say…I do not understand your reasoning or that of Mormonism to say such a thing. To say no truth was taught until Mormonism is the work of a cult.

Cults are not based on the truth of God, of Christ, of who we are before God.

Kathleen, I think you may have misunderstood my comment. Let me first set up the conditions. For arguments sake let us suppose that the RCC had the ability to save those who heard the gospel. Let us further suppose that no apostasy occurred. The contention seems to be that Jesus would never allow his gospel to be removed from the earth because he wants all people to hear the gospel, including those who lived during the approximately 1800 year period. But of course there is a big logic gap in this line of reasoning. It ignores the many, many people who would still never heard the gospel during that time even if the RCC could save them.

 

[twopekinguys]

Even as flexible as I am, even I can’t do the Mental Gymnastics that our mormon friends do.

Just sayin

 

[CopticChristian]

Kathleen, I think you may have misunderstood my comment. Let me first set up the conditions. For arguments sake let us suppose that the RCC had the ability to save those who heard the gospel. Let us further suppose that no apostasy occurred. The contention seems to be that Jesus would never allow his gospel to be removed from the earth because he wants all people to hear the gospel, including those who lived during the approximately 1800 year period. But of course there is a big logic gap in this line of reasoning. It ignores the many, many people who would still never heard the gospel during that time even if the RCC could save them./

 

[PRmerger]

But do you not see that even if the truth was on the earth continually since Jesus lived that many people still did not hear it?

Well, many people did not hear the Christian gospel proclaimed to them.

However, the Scriptures tell us that the truth is written in our hearts, (see Romans 2:15) so in one sense, all human persons have the truth.

It appears that it is either a mystery as to how they are saved or that their whole lives boil down to simply saying “yes” to Christ at the judgment bar.

This is a false dichotomy. There is no need to make it an either/or proposal.

To say it is a mystery is to say you don’t know.

No. To say it is a mystery is to say we cannot fully understand it. But it is NOT to say you “don’t know.”.

To say it is a simple “yes” is to make a mockery of those who work so hard here on the earth to be saved.

How so?

 

[PRmerger]

To Catholic faithful it clearly does not matter if one is baptized in the trinitarian formula or not.

This is not a correct explication of Catholic teaching, Jan.

And I think you know that.

Baptism is required for our salvation. In the Trinitarian formula.

But God is not limited by the sacraments. We are bound by them. But God is not. God can save whomever he chooses.

You are being asked to stop deliberately proclaiming falsehoods about Catholicism.

You know better.

 

[PRmerger]

The contention seems to be that Jesus would never allow his gospel to be removed from the earth because he wants all people to hear the gospel, including those who lived during the approximately 1800 year period.

Yes.

And because he said he would never leave us.

And because of the Divine Liturgy–being celebrated from Pentecost to present time–means Jesus was always present here on earth. From the rising of the sun to its setting, Jesus was present with us in the Mass.

No apostasy could have occurred with the Mass being celebrated.

 

[Janderich]

This is not a correct explication of Catholic teaching, Jan.

And I think you know that.

Baptism is required for our salvation. In the Trinitarian formula.

But God is not limited by the sacraments. We are bound by them. But God is not. God can save whomever he chooses.

You are being asked to stop deliberately proclaiming falsehoods about Catholicism.

You know better.

I do not mean to presuppose what Catholicism teaches, sorry if the wording was poor. In my mind it just seems to be a double standard. I realize others do not see it that way. Thanks for your comments, you have been very decent.