LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Cat_Herder]

Cat Herder, It seems like we are not understanding each other. Let me see if this helps… In order to receive the gift of salvation one must hear the gospel, repent, and receive the ordinances. If one does not have sufficient opportunity in this life then he will have an opportunity in the next. In the spirit world the gospel will be preached to those who have never heard it. If they accept the gospel they can then repent and accept baptism. In either case it is the church, found on both sides of the veil, that offers the opportunity of salvation. In either case the same ordinances are required. In either case one must accept and repent.

Perhaps there is confusion regarding Christs atonement. We believe it is two fold:

1. All will be resurrected regardless of the good or bad they have done in this life. The resurrection is a free gift.
2. Those who accept the gospel will be saved in the kingdom of God. This is conditional on a person hearing the gospel, repenting, and receiving ordinances. The atonement does not magically absolve someone of the need to do this. Christ taught this himself, “except ye repent, ye shall in likewise perish.”(Luke 13:3) and again, “Except a man be born of water, and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5)

Let’s look carefully at your logic here. You say the resurrection is a free gift and say that because it is a free gift, everyone gets it.

But then you say that salvation is also a free gift–but that not everyone gets it, as they must do certain things in this life (or the next, you claim).

So you’re contradicting yourself. Either it’s free or it isn’t. If salvation really is a free gift, as free as the resurrection, then the right thing to do is to baptize a baby. If it isn’t free then you put all kinds of hoops up to baptism. But if you put up those hoops, then salvation isn’t available to everyone (i.e. double predestination) and that violates 1 Tim 2:3-4.

The real problem here is your claim that “it is the church, found on both sides of the veil, that offers” salvation. It isn’t the church–it is God. The Church was not put up on that cross. Jesus was. God created a Church but He is not bound by the Sacraments (you say ordinances) that He establishes. He can choose to save people in any way He wants because it is His sacrifice, and not any action of sinners, that causes salvation. The ordinary way to be saved is through the Sacraments, like Baptism, but both the OT and NT are replete with people who inherited the kingdom without them. There was no church to save Enoch, Elijah or the good thief, but they all inherited the Kingdom. And don’t forget the legion of Catholic and Orthodox saints who attained the Kingdom during the so called apostasy. This all shows that God doesn’t need any help from the Mormon church to save souls. Instead, God established the Catholic Church so that all men could come to knowledge of the truth and be saved, but is in no way restricted by the Church as Mormons claim.

So the Bible just doesn’t support the idea that the Mormon church is the sole mediator of salvation. The Mormon church is just another 19th century Johnny come lately.

 

[kimg901]

How can you lds faithful, who say you are christians believe a man that claims an apostacy and also claims that he did more for the church than Jesus or His Apostles, follow such a man and his teachings? If you trully love Christ then you would let go of these false teachings and follow Him. Also, its your souls (lds and others) that are bound for hades because you know of Christ original and true teachings but yet do not follow what He says and insist that He left His Church for 1,800 years. Thats just my opinion but its also somewhere in the Bible. But none the less, we as Catholics will pray for you always.

 

[Janderich]

Let’s look carefully at your logic here. You say the resurrection is a free gift and say that because it is a free gift, everyone gets it.

But then you say that salvation is also a free gift–but that not everyone gets it, as they must do certain things in this life (or the next, you claim).

So you’re contradicting yourself. Either it’s free or it isn’t. If salvation really is a free gift, as free as the resurrection, then the right thing to do is to baptize a baby. If it isn’t free then you put all kinds of hoops up to baptism. But if you put up those hoops, then salvation isn’t available to everyone (i.e. double predestination) and that violates 1 Tim 2:3-4.

Wow this is tough getting through definitions and to the same understanding.

The resurrection, in LDS theology it is very specific, let me explain. Upon death the mortal body remains here on earth and the spirit enters the spirit world. The resurrection is is the reuniting of the mortal body with the spirit. It has nothing to do with how good someone has been. All will be resurrected.

Salvation (obtaining the Celestial Kingdom) is a different matter. Salvation is a gift but it is not free. It is a gift because we certainly do not deserve it. In no way can we ever measure up to what is required, but thanks to Christ’s atonement if we meet a few requirements we can be saved in the celestial kingdom. To meet the conditions Christ has set forth we must exercise faith, repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost. Not all will receive salvation. Some will fall short.

In regards to 1 Tim 2:3-4, indeed Christ would have all men be saved but certainly some will not accept the above requirements for salvation.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, LivingWaters is correct. When God gives a direct command with severe consequences LDS seek to obey. Whether I say we “feel” we are under heavens mandate or whether I say we “believe” makes very little difference in this case.

Jan,

OK,

When you say you “feel” It means you believe.

I say I believe that the bible is not corrupt and it is the word of God because the Church says so. I feel happy about that. I feel sad for those that don’t believe it. How I feel has nothing to do with what I believe. So we differ and now we both understsand our view of the world is different.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If the LDS view of the great apostasy is correct I think they would have to submit that the apostles were the worst teachers and proclaimers because the earliest patristics utterly contradict LDS ideas,

 

[Cat_Herder]

Wow this is tough

Of course it is. We are informed Catholics.

Salvation is a gift but it is not free.

Uh… Something is black but it is white? Something is hot but it is cold? The definition of a gift is that it is free. If you have to pay for it somehow… then it is neither free nor a gift!

Say there is a kite under my Christmas tree. It is a gift. Before this it had a price tag on it on the store, but Jesus paid the price for it so now it is a gift. Now in Mormon theology you have the kite in an elaborate lockbox that only Joseph Smith has the key for. In real Christianity it’s in an easy open gift box.

Now it is true that just having the kite is not sufficient for salvation. It has to actually be flown–that is, one must live a life that does not destroy the gift of salvation through mortal sin. But God wants everyone to be saved, so the kite is custom made for each person so that there will be a way for everyone to fly it, even babies and the disabled. Nevertheless there is an ordinary way in which a kite is flown: Catholicism. That is why there has always been a Catholic Church from Calvary to now. Not everyone is able to follow that normal way, but God, the giver of the gift, takes care of that so it’s possible for everyone to fly it. So ignorant Mormons can be saved as can ignorant Hindus etc. But if you know how to fly it and don’t, you’re without excuse.

In regards to 1 Tim 2:3-4, indeed Christ would have all men be saved but certainly some will not accept the above requirements for salvation.

Now if someone destroys the kite, God will be sad but won’t stop them from doing that–but the consequence is hell (Heb. 10:26-29). But this doesn’t change the fact that there is a kite, it is a gift, it can be flown etc.

 

[CopticChristian]

Wow this is tough getting through definitions and to the same understanding.

The resurrection, in LDS theology it is very specific, let me explain. Upon death the mortal body remains here on earth and the spirit enters the spirit world. The resurrection is is the reuniting of the mortal body with the spirit. It has nothing to do with how good someone has been. All will be resurrected.

Salvation (obtaining the Celestial Kingdom) is a different matter. Salvation is a gift but it is not free. It is a gift because we certainly do not deserve it. In no way can we ever measure up to what is required, but thanks to Christ’s atonement if we meet a few requirements we can be saved in the celestial kingdom. To meet the conditions Christ has set forth we must exercise faith, repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost. Not all will receive salvation. Some will fall short.

In regards to 1 Tim 2:3-4, indeed Christ would have all men be saved but certainly some will not accept the above requirements for salvation.

Jan,

Let me ask this, so a Mormon does a few things, does not fall short and earns terrestrial, telestial or celestial reward, OK. I have two questions.

Once earned can it ever be lost having been deemed worthy?

How does one merit telestial, terrestrial or celestial having not fallen short, is it through works?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Now it is true that just having the kite is not sufficient for salvation. It has to actually be flown–that is, one must live a life that does not destroy the gift of salvation through mortal sin. But God wants everyone to be saved, so the kite is custom made for each person so that there will be a way for everyone to fly it, even babies and the disabled. Nevertheless there is an ordinary way in which a kite is flown: Catholicism. That is why there has always been a Catholic Church from Calvary to now. Not everyone is able to follow that normal way, but God, the giver of the gift, takes care of that so it’s possible for everyone to fly it. So ignorant Mormons can be saved as can ignorant Hindus etc. But if you know how to fly it and don’t, you’re without excuse.

.

Your post made me smile I can see the three year old again running in the front yard flying her kite above her head, no string attached just laughing, running with her kite held over her head, flying it as best she could. I’m going to bed now with that memory as I kiss the sleeping heads of the now much older kids. Thanks

Edited to add: This seems along the lines of what you were saying, yes?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebbecca we have already visited this topic in this very thread. I quoted you scripture where Christ went and preached to the dead and I asked you why he then went and preached to them if there was no hope of change. It ended with you giving a rather lame explanation about limbo reserved for some saints and commenting that you had little time to respond (see my post #294).

Funny, I thought it was you who gave a lame interpretation of that scripture. Reading a whole heck of a lot into it, that isn’t there.

And no, I have little time, and even less of an interest in hearing the same, tiring, Mormon canned responses that seem to have never been thought all the way through. What’s your point? You never answer anything that is said to you. You’re like the Mormon missionaries who come to my door. May as well talk to a rock.

]Christ saves everyone who accepts him but he saves them one by one. Do you not see that in a very small way we aid in that salvation through ordinances? If you do not agree I would ask why you present the Eucharist or baptism at all?

This has been answered in this thread so many times, I think you must not be reading, at all. Maybe it is that your church teaches you to not listen? That is what I think.

But here you go again, and you can ignore it again.

God is not reliant on the Sacraments. God did not need to save us. God did not “need”, as you said, to preach to the dead. Jesus IS God, and God has NO need. The Sacraments are given to us by Christ for our benefit in this life. Just as Jesus was prefigured in the sacrificial lamb, the Eucharist prefigures the life to come. Just as Jesus fulfilled the Old law by his Incarnation, death and resurrection, the life to come is fulfilled in Him, with Him and through Him. Jesus is not reliant on the Sacraments. Are you able to understand that? I will say it again: Jesus is not reliant of the Sacraments. He can save Who He Wills. God wills that all are saved. We trust God, and believe what God wills is the final Word. This is most evident in His Word, the Logos, Jesus Christ. Look to the Cross to know what God wills. Christ died for all, including you. He did not die over and over again, one death for every soul. One God, One faith, One Lord Jesus Christ who suffered and died once, for all. The cross is the event of your salvation, as it is mine, and all who have lived.

Until you can understand two things, first, that God transcends everything, including need, and second that God IS love…I think you will be forever stuck in Mormonism. You are too enthralled with the idea of being a god. Which is why you spend so much time and effort on Mormon ordinances. You are not bringing people to Christ via these ordinances. They do nothing at all. Your desire is totally, 100% based on a belief that you need these ordinances to become a god. It is the whole reason you believe you exist.

Let it go, turn to Christ, and trust in his love. HE is the Way.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

Let me ask this, so a Mormon does a few things, does not fall short and earns terrestrial, telestial or celestial reward, OK. I have two questions.

Once earned can it ever be lost having been deemed worthy?

Final judgment occurs at the resurrection. Once judgment has been made and a kingdom assigned it is final. There is no loss and there are no do overs.

CopticChristian:

How does one merit telestial, terrestrial or celestial having not fallen short, is it through works?

No mortal has ever, nor will ever, obtain a kingdom of glory through works alone. To obtain any kingdom one must receive the mercy of Christ. It is through him we are saved. To obtain his mercy men must repent and receive a remission of sins through baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. “Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.” (Alma 12:34).

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen, I guess I didn’t think I needed to. First it is supported in the Bible. Second it is acknowledged in the CCC here, and third it appears Catholic priests are ordained to this order. Am I incorrect?

You are incorrect. You did not find a Melchizedek Priesthood in the CCC or the Bible. You did find a reference to Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ; Christ has a priesthood like Melchizedek, but no Melchizedek Priesthood.

I’m not sure why you think it is a fabrication of Joseph Smith.

Because you will not find a “Melchizedek Priesthood” at anytime in recored history until Joseph Smith invented it.

So when you talk of Mormon priesthood authority you are talking about a man made club invented in the 19th century.

The Catholic Church through her Bishops has the authority that Christ promised. There was no apostasy.

 

[Stephen168]

Final judgment occurs at the resurrection. Once judgment has been made and a kingdom assigned it is final. There is no loss and there are no do overs.
No mortal has ever, nor will ever, obtain a kingdom of glory through works alone. To obtain any kingdom one must receive the mercy of Christ. It is through him we are saved. To obtain his mercy men must repent and receive a remission of sins through baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. “Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.” (Alma 12:34).

There is only one God. The creator of everything from nothing.

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency.

In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, thefailure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

 

[Janderich]

You are incorrect. You did not find a Melchizedek Priesthood in the CCC or the Bible. You did find a reference to Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ; Christ has a priesthood like Melchizedek, but no Melchizedek Priesthood.

To say there is no Melchizedek Priesthood is quite a stretch indeed. If you do not believe there is such a priesthood how then do you interpret these scriptures:

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him…

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the laughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all…

Why did Melchizedek, a priest, bless Abraham? Why did Abraham pay him tithes?

Psalms 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Why is there an “order of Melchizedek”?

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Why is there here a clear distinction between the Levitical and Melchizedek priesthoods? Why does Paul claim there is a “further need” that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec?

 

[Janderich]

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

…

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

I’m not sure where you get the idea that the apostles did not hold keys. Below is a statement from Orson Hyde, one of the twelve, who was present when Joseph passed keys to the twelve before his death. This is his recolection of the words Joseph spoke:

Brethren [members of the twelve], the Lord bids me hasten the work in which we are engaged. He will not suffer that you should wait for your endowments until the Temple is done. Some important Scene is near to take place. It may be that my enemies will kill me, and in case they should, and the Keys and power which rest on me not be imparted to you, they will be lost from the Earth; but if I can only succeed in placing them upon your heads, then let me fall a victim to murderous hands if God will suffer it, and I can go with all pleasure and satisfaction, knowing that my work is done, and the foundation laid on which the kingdom of God is to be reared in this dispensation of the fulness of times. Upon the shoulders of the Twelve must the responsibility of leading this Church hence forth rest until you shall appoint others to succeed you. (In Declaration of the Twelve, Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.)

And from Wilford Woodruff another of the twelve present on the same occasion. Again quoting Joseph Smith:

I have had sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to any man who ever lived upon the face of the earth. And these principles and this Priesthood and power belong to this great and last dispensation which the God of heaven has set His hand to establish in the earth. Now, . . . I have sealed upon your [the Twelve] heads every key, every power, and every principle which the Lord has sealed upon my head. . . . I tell you, the burden of this kingdom now rests upon your shoulders; you have got to bear it off in all the world, and if you don’t do it you will be damned. (Millennial Star, Aug. 22, 1892, 530.)

 

[Cat_Herder]

Why is there here a clear distinction between the Levitical and Melchizedek priesthoods? Why does Paul claim there is a “further need” that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec?

Paul said there was ONE priest Who so arose: Jesus Christ. However, He did not literally arose after Melchizedek. Jesus Christ is GOD; He has always existed and has always been the high priest. Your argument presupposes that the Melchizedek priesthood was established by Christ after Calvary when in reality it precedes Calvary in time.

 

[Stephen168]

To say there is no Melchizedek Priesthood is quite a stretch indeed. If you do not believe there is such a priesthood how then do you interpret these scriptures:

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him…

Genesis 14:18-20 A King-Priest Melchizedek appears and gives Abram bread and wine; then blesses Abram. A King-Priest who suddenly appears with no genealogy; no parents or children.

Psalms 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Psalm 110:1-4 King David speaks of a priest that will come in the same way that Melchizedek was a priest. A King-Priest bringing bread and wine. A priest directly from God and not from Aaron; the tribe of Levi.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 God will make a new covenant. It will be different from the old one: It will last forever, it will be written on the hearts of men not just stone tablets, and all people will know him.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the laughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all…

Hebrews 7:1-3 Melchizedek appears without father, mother, or children, and was a priest always. Compared to the divine Christ, the Son of Man; who was born without father, mother, or children, and was a priest always. There is no actual Melchizedek priesthood. Melchizedek is a High Priest and King who is the example of the Messiah. What Melchizedek is in portrayal, Christ is in fact: the unique priest of all mankind.

Hebrews 7:4-10 Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. The priests of Aaron were also sons of Abraham, so Melchizedek was a superior priesthood than the Levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:11-14 If the Levitical priesthood was good enough, there would be no need for another priest as prophesied by King David. A new priest means a change in the law.

Hebrews 7:15*And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Hebrews 7:15-19 Christ is the new High Priest similar to (order of) how Melchizedek was a high Priest. He abolishes the Levitical priesthood and the law. They were abolished because the law did not bring man into close communication with God.

Hebrews 7:20-25 Through Christ there is a better covenant because he is the eternal high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:26-28 There is no need to offer sacrifices daily like the Levitical priesthood. Christ offered himself one time for all people sins forever.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

God called Christ to be a high priest like Melchizedek was a high priest, without parents or children, bringing gifts of bread and wine. Which also means no human could qualify for this priesthood.

Why did Melchizedek, a priest, bless Abraham? Why did Abraham pay him tithes?

The Bible doesn’t say why and according to St. Paul is doesn’t matter why; just the fact he did.

Why is there an “order of Melchizedek”?

There is not an “order of Melchizedek” there is a Priesthood like/order of/similar to Melchizedek; see Hebrews 7:15.

Why is there here a clear distinction between the Levitical and Melchizedek priesthoods?

The is no Melchizedek Priesthood, but they was Melchizedek.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 God will make a new covenant. It will be different from the old one: It will last forever, it will be written on the hearts of men not just stone tablets, and all people will know him.

Hebrews 7:4-10 Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. The priests of Aaron were also sons of Abraham, so Melchizedek was a superior priesthood than the Levitical priesthood.

Christ replaced the Aaronic priesthood with a Priesthood similar to Melchizedek. See Hebrews 7:1-28

Why does Paul claim there is a “further need” that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec?

Aaron has descendant while Melchizedek and Christ did not. (Hebrews 7:4-14)

John 6:31-69 Jesus tells his disciples, he is the bread of life. The Jews doubt him and he repeats his claim. They doubt him again and he tells them that he is the bread of life and you must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Many of his disciples leave him. The Jews gave Jesus three chances to tell them he was talking in a figurative manor but did not.

Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinth 11:23-25 Jesus tells his Apostles to eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance and for the forgiveness of sin. The blood of the new and everlasting covenant that he will shed for us.

Hebrews 8:1-5 We have Jesus our high priest sitting in heaven. If he was on earth he would not be a priest of the order of Melchizedek; just Aaron. In heaven, he is still offering gifts and sacrifices according to the order of Melchizedek. The gifts of Levi are just a shadow of the heavenly gifts offered by Christ.

 

[CopticChristian]

Final judgment occurs at the resurrection. Once judgment has been made and a kingdom assigned it is final. There is no loss and there are no do overs.
No mortal has ever, nor will ever, obtain a kingdom of glory through works alone. To obtain any kingdom one must receive the mercy of Christ. It is through him we are saved. To obtain his mercy men must repent and receive a remission of sins through baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. “Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.” (Alma 12:34).

Jan,

No milk. So once things are done waiting for assignment as a result of mercy prior to assignment can this assignment to whatever level be lost while waiting in this life.

 

[CopticChristian]

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency.

In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, thefailure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

Stephe,

This reminds me of Spinal Tap. Wow Mormons had their own apostasy.

 

[Janderich]

Paul said there was ONE priest Who so arose: Jesus Christ. However, He did not literally arose after Melchizedek. Jesus Christ is GOD; He has always existed and has always been the high priest. Your argument presupposes that the Melchizedek priesthood was established by Christ after Calvary when in reality it precedes Calvary in time.

How does my argument presuppose that the Melchizedek priesthood was established by Christ after Calvary? This is not true at all. The Melchizedek priesthood is the priesthood used to shape the earth. It was held by Christ before the world began. It was at one time known as the “Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God” but to avoid the to frequent use of the term it is called the Melchizedek priesthood. Through Christ comes all priesthood authority but it was held by the ancient patriarchs and prophets.