LDS: What do you know about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?

[Peter_John]

As you know Im still in the church for reasons largely beyond my control and this is the reason I tell my wife (actually I only told her this once and she had a low level freak out) that I hope Boyd K Packer passes before TSM. As bad as it is to have to stay in the church it would be immeasurably worse to have BKP as the top dog

I actually always kind of liked Packer, but then I am probably more familiar with the earlier body of his work. And, of course, we had a family bias on that, since he was the President of the New England Mission when my grandfather was a branch president, in a district, so the mission president worked directly with the branch presidents. His discourse “The Mediator” was probably his most prominent statement when I was most heavily involved.

 

[Peter_John]

we believe you cannot enter the kingdom of God without a spouse.

This is also not doctrinal. LDS doctrine teaches that people who are single can enter the Celestial Kingdom, they just cannot have “eternal increase”. They will be more like angels than gods, in LDS perspective.

 

[hosemonkey]

It actually was not as easy as that, The issue of statehood was secondary to laws passed allowing the government to confiscate property from those practicing polygamy in the U.S. Territories.

This put the practice of polygamy in conflict with the LDS commitment to keeping the laws of the land, but the leaders did not feel compelled to obey while they still had court appeals.There are some classic photos of the whole council of the twelve in prison during those times. It was only after the case made it to the Supreme Court and lost that the Church abandoned the practice of polygamy. There was more than statehood at risk.

The LDS Church was saddled with debt from fighting laws defending traditional marriage. Once the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on the case and found against the Mormons, the Church and all the members who continued contracting plural marriages would have sacrificed all their property. Wht was not confiscated for the practice would have been forfeit to pay the debts. That was actually what it took.

---

As a side note, following this, under LDS President Lorenzo Snow, Mormonism began emphasizing tithing as a commandment. It helped eliminate the debt and the Church has avoided going into debt since then. Even the Washington, DC temple, which was likely the most expensive temple ever, did not begin construction until the cash to complete it was secured.

Regardless of the reasoning, mormons gave up a practice that Joseph Smith had declared was mandated by Almighty God, and upon which one’s salvation and exaltation depended. It would seem to me that a doctrine of this importance would have been defended to the death. Just sayin’

 

[Peter_John]

Regardless of the reasoning, mormons gave up a practice that Joseph Smith had declared was mandated by Almighty God, and upon which one’s salvation and exaltation depended. It would seem to me that a doctrine of this importance would have been defended to the death. Just sayin’

 

[Croso717]

And this had nothing to do with the fact that the government was coming down hard on the Mormons for the practice of polygamy? It was just a happy coincidence that God decided to reveal this at that point in time?

Then why did “Heavenly Father” reveal the Holy Spirit and even His Son, for that matter? Would not the same apply to them? Or is this more of a chauvenistic God who feels a need to protect the ladies more than his Son or the Holy Spirit?

By the way, welcome to this forum.

OK im not really sure i haven’t looked into that. i have studied many LDS classics and im only a kid. but i just want to point something out that i know you guys may not believe this but we believe God was once like us. a mortal and going through a test just as we are. he met his wife and married her and followed the teachings of the Gospel on his world. once he died he waited in the spirit world with his wife until the resurrection of his world. he too had and still has a God. once he was resurrect he was exalted to a God with his wife. and then he had his spirit children and organized worlds into existence so His children can do the same thing so they too can become like him. so im guessing Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are literally sons of him. so if he didn’t reveal much about the savior or the holy spirit then how could even come close to accepting a gospel we dont much about if he didn’t reveal much the Savior and the Holy Spirit? im not positive if this is true this is just my guess.

 

[Croso717]

You may not worship the other gods, but you admittedly believe in them which, by definition, makes you polytheistic. But even in “Heavenly Father’s” realm, you believe that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are gods (divine beings, seperate and distinct from each other except in purpose). Considering all of this, I find it truly amazing that any Mormon would even try to make the claim that they are not polytheistic.

but the definition of a Polytheistic religion is believing AND worshiping multiple gods. the other gods that are throughout the universe are of no concern to us except our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. i believe the only reason God has revealed to us there other gods exist and govern their own worlds so they stand testify to us that we can become like our Heavenly Father. and yes we do believe they are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are different beings except in purpose. but if what you say is true ands they are one being literally then why would God call himself three different things?

 

[Croso717]

The passage I have highlighted is not LDS Doctrine, and never has been LDS doctrine. It is the same sort of speculative drivel as the idea that somehow Black people were less valiant in the pre-mortal fight against Satan – also not doctrine, and never was. Why not just specualte that more men followed the Adversary in the pre-existence? Same result, and just as much LDS scriptural support: None.

In fact, the idea in bold is counter-doctrinal. It is counter-doctrinal for at least two reasons. The first is the LDS doctrine of free-agency, and the affirmation that “God would not let the females go with Satan” implies he forced them to stay. Related to this is the idea that free-agency brings personal responsibility for choices, and this suggests that in pre-mortality God held men more accountable for their actions than women.

In LDS Scripture, the Book of Mormon specifically, the LDS God makes it clear that he despises polygamy, and that he will only command it be done when needed to make more babies – otherwise even Mormonism’s God does not want it done at all. That is the only doctrinal reason for justifying polygamy in Mormonism. It’s God’s way of solving a personnel shortage.

That is a bit off-topic, so back to that: Consider this perspective: Jesus is our Brother in Mormonism, right? Even though Jehovah, he must be sealed to mortal parents to follow the Celestial law, right? To whom is he sealed as his Mother?

he is sealed to Mary because she was his mortal mother. and my discussion kind of backed fired on me for not correctly stating certain things im sorry i am well studied in things most LDS member would not even know. im only kid and i haven’t carefully studied the premortal war in heaven the women and free agency namely because it never interested me. but ill look into it and get back to you on that.

 

[hosemonkey]

im only kid and i haven’t carefully studied the premortal war in heaven the women and free agency namely because it never interested me. but ill look into it and get back to you on that.

If, by your own admission you are “only a kid”, now would be a good time to stop wasting your time on mormonism and start looking into the true Faith, that of the Holy Mother Church. Spend some time looking into the true history of mormonism, from non-mormon scources. They do not speak to defame the mormon organization, but instead to reveal the truth that the mormon “church” does not want you to see. It is never too late to find the truth.

 

[Peter_John]

but the definition of a Polytheistic religion is believing AND worshiping multiple gods. the other gods that are throughout the universe are of no concern to us except our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. i believe the only reason God has revealed to us there other gods exist and govern their own worlds so they stand testify to us that we can become like our Heavenly Father. and yes we do believe they are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are different beings except in purpose. but if what you say is true ands they are one being literally then why would God call himself three different things?

It was actually splitting hairs over the difference that created the Biblical culture that kept slipping back into pagan worship practices throughout the Old Testament. While the Prophets continually affirmed there is only one God, the histories and literature showed that people continually resisted believing in multiple gods, hence I saiah’s claim, “My people has not understood.”

As you do not use the Old Testament books written in Greek, which were written after Malachi until about 150 BC, you are unfamiliar with their content. These show the first point where the histories and literature agree with the prophets. They not only reject the idea of mulitple gods altogether, but outright mock the belief in multiple gods. The Book of Wisdom includes some of the most specific prophecies of Christ, including detailed descriptions of the motives of those who would kill him.

Regarding the Trinity, your question assumes first that we can understand the nature of God, by asking why, as if the question is subject to human reason, when God expressed through Isaiah that his thoughts are as far above ours as the heaven is above the Earth.

The first point to understand is that nothing physical limits God’s existence, as he created it all. His nature existed before anything was created. The short answer is why would he refer to himself three different ways, it is because he is three different individuals, yet all one at the same time, and that is the doctrine of the Trinity. The fact we cannot understand that does not make it wrong, it just means we are not God. It is part of what makes the Incarnation of God in Christ so wonderful, because when Jesus talks to the Father we have a glimpse of the Creaotr’s own internal dialogue. He wants to share even that with us, nd wants us to share in the nature of his existence in Trinity.

 

[Peter_John]

he is sealed to Mary because she was his mortal mother. and my discussion kind of backed fired on me for not correctly stating certain things im sorry i am well studied in things most LDS member would not even know. im only kid and i haven’t carefully studied the premortal war in heaven the women and free agency namely because it never interested me. but ill look into it and get back to you on that.

If Jesus is our brother, and Mary is sealed to him as his Mother, does that not suggest a few significant things about Mary and our relationship to her?

First it suggests that Mary has some maternal interest in us, even if she is not the literal Heavenly Mother which Mormons recognize.

Second, it suggests a unique role for her in the Celestial Kingdom. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that we enjoy the same relationships, “Sociality”, in the Celestial Kingdom that we have here. That would mean her association with Jesus in the Celestial Kingdom would be the same as it was in mortality. We have the greatest indication of that in the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana. People approached Mary with a problem, she took it to Jesus. That did not mean that they could not approach Jesus directly, but that his mother takes interest in the needs of others, and prevails upon her Son to help those close to her.

Isn’t that all consistent with 1) Mary being sealed for all eternity as Jesus’ mother and 2) enjoying the same sociality in the Celestial Kingdom as we do here, only coupled with Eternal Glory, which Glory we do not now enjoy?

 

[xixxvmcm85]

If Jesus is our brother, and Mary is sealed to him as his Mother, does that not suggest a few significant things about Mary and our relationship to her?

First it suggests that Mary has some maternal interest in us, even if she is not the literal Heavenly Mother which Mormons recognize.

I think this thread is starting to go in circles now.

Post #9:

Furthermore, Peter John, even if the LDS had an identical view of the Communion of Saints as we do, they view God’s fatherhood as a literal one, and the emphasis is on that spiritual patronage we all share with each other. The biological mother of anyone else, even Jesus’ own mother, wouldn’t have a place as our mother, anymore than I would say you and I both being children of God must mean your biological mother is my spiritual mother.

 

[Peter_John]

I think this thread is starting to go in circles now.

Post #9:

I wouldn’t say going in circles, but coming back to topic.

 

[Peter_John]

I think that I would classify the LDS “church” as closer to Hinduism, who believe in a multiplicity of “gods.”

The main reason I compare it to Islam first is that Islam really emerged as a Christian heresy before gainignstatus as a world religion. Mohommaed basically said that it had all been appropriated from the true faith(in which his tribal God was actually the one true God, and all toehrs were false),

Mormons actually support their belief in a multitude of gods with Biblical references such as Psalm 95 which calls God “the king over all the gods”. They maintain that this recognition of multiple deities was part of the true faith. Lacking the Greek Old Testament as part of their canon of scripture they also lack the Biblical basis for condemning that belief as apostasy. And to clarify, I do not say they have this belief because of what the Bible says. They merely use such passages to support their belief even though its origin in their own faith are separate from the Bible.

 

[PaulDupre]

i would like to include that the reason that information hasn’t been revealed about our Heavenly Mother because God considers her to be his equal and he does not want her real name to be used in vain or that too would a unforgivable sin. feel free to ask more questions im happy to answer them.

I have a question:

How many “Heavenly Mothers” are there?

Do we all have the same “Heavenly Mother”?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

PS: I already know the answer - just want to see what you will say.

 

[PaulDupre]

As you know Im still in the church for reasons largely beyond my control and this is the reason I tell my wife (actually I only told her this once and she had a low level freak out) that I hope Boyd K Packer passes before TSM. As bad as it is to have to stay in the church it would be immeasurably worse to have BKP as the top dog

Interesting that you would say that. When I was a missionary in the Taiwan Taipei mission - 1977 to 1979, (then senior apostle) Ezra Taft Benson came to speak at our mission conference.

“Elder” Benson spoke of how there was no blood of Abraham in Asia (contrary to what the bible teaches) and declared that LDS missionaries should not return to Taiwan to marry local Chinese LDS girls. He said “Go back to America and marry a nice white girl so that your parents will have grandchildren they can be proud of”.

He also stated “We are not here to convert the Buddhists. Leave them to their damnation. We are here to convert the Christians”. All of the people I baptized on my mission were Buddhists when I contacted them.

After that conference talk, many elders expressed the sentiment that “if Benson becomes the prophet I will leave the church”.

Well, Benson did become the prophet when Spencer W. Kimball died. Several of those missionaries eventually did leave the LDS church ( a few subsequently became Catholic) but I’m sure that most did not.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Croso717]

I have a question:

How many “Heavenly Mothers” are there?

Do we all have the same “Heavenly Mother”?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

PS: I already know the answer - just want to see what you will say.

Everyone on this Earth has the same Heavenly Mother

 

[PaulDupre]

Everyone on this Earth has the same Heavenly Mother

Really, so God the Father does not live “the principle”?

Heavenly Father is not plurally married?

Sources, please.

 

[PaulDupre]

LDS “Apostle” Orson Pratt commented:

… it will be seen that the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion, was a polygamist, … the Messiah chose to … by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that he approbated the plurality of wives under the Christian dispensation…

We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings’ daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time; … it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, … If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom (The Seer, p. 172).

 

[Croso717]

Really, so God the Father does not live “the principle”?

Heavenly Father is not plurally married?

Sources, please.

I’m not understanding the question he is married to his wife and they conceive spirit children

 

[Peter_John]

Really, so God the Father does not live “the principle”?

Heavenly Father is not plurally married?

Sources, please.

Actually, with an LDS aproach to exegesis, the way it works is presenting the citations that claim God the Father must have plural eternal wives so thjat those who disagree or wish to leave another impression may argue that they are speculation (which they are) and have never formally been declared doctrine.