Lead us not into temptation...Greek Translation

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There have been some changes made in the translation of the “Our Father” that have recently made the news.

I just looked up the Greek and the literal translations, and I am no Greek scholar, but it appears that Jesus actually said “lead us not into temptation” (or to the trial, or to the test.)

Does anyone know enough Greek to set me straight on that if I am wrong? Because it’s all Greek to me. 🤣 (Could. Not. Resist…)

*Please please PLEASE start a different thread if you want to discuss Pope Francis or the decision to change the prayer. Other threads have been removed for venturing into those waters—I want to be able to have this conversation.
 
The Spanish language translation roughly translates to “do not let us fall into temptation.” No nos dejes caer en tentación. So maybe that is where this is coming from. Maybe the Spanish should be re-translated for accuracy, instead of recommending changes to the wording on the Our Father prayer.
 
Teek said:
Because it’s all Greek to me. 🤣 (Could. Not. Resist…)
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I don’t know how true this is, but take it for what it’s worth:
During Vat II, there was debate over how much Latin to remove from the Mass. One of the prominent bishops made the plea, “At least let them keep the Kyrie!” Which was met with laughter, (including the bishop, himself, when he realized his mistake).

Again, I can’t vouch for it’s truthfulness. . . 🤔😁
 
On one of the earlier threads that were later taken down, there were some interesting comments from a couple of priests (one of them a French Canadian) who welcomed the improved translation, because they have both come up against a large number of lay people who raised the objection about “Why would God deliberately lead us into temptation?” Both priests sounded very confident that the new translation, in both French and English, will go a long way toward solving this problem for them. Unfortunately I don’t remember their words in detail, and now, of course, their posts aren’t there any longer to be looked at …
 
The Pope wants to update the translation from “lead us not into temptation” to “let us not enter into temptation”.

Not exactly the sensational, scandalous, quasi-heretical thing which some are making this out to be, now is it?

Also, if you think the Pope would do such a thing without consulting with the worlds top Catholic Greek and NT scholars, you’d be sorely mistaken. I guarentee the Pope has thought about this, prayed, fasted, and meditated about, and talked about it with scholars and counselors for months before announcing it publicly.

I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Pope Francis has even consulted Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI on this - and I can guarentee Father Benedict would have no problem with it, and humbly give his consent to the update and remain obedient to the Holy Father.
 
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Teek said:
Does anyone know enough Greek to set me straight on that if I am wrong? B
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Teek, I don’t want to run the risk of posting anything on this thread that might get it taken down. If you care to look at a thread I started under the title, “Lead us not into temptation,” which has now been moved to the Catholic News forum, you will find there a link to an Anglican blog where the OP goes into the Greek side of the question in some detail. I don’t know enough Greek myself even to attempt to answer your question.
 
Where did the other comments go? There were quite a few more!

I thought we were discussing what it would mean if we change the translation if the Greek translation is literally “lead is not into temptation. If we translate the New English translations back into Greek, do they still use Jesus’ words?

Gone. That part of the conversation. Why? At least we could be told why. That is a serious debate going on all over the world with sincere Catholics on both sides of the conversation voicing very real, very important concerns. Why can’t we delve more deeply into the translations here?

I invested time in considering those answers and the replies I made also took time, and a lot of thought. I did some research in order to present a rather long quote about “lead us not into temptation” from Pope Benedict XVI’s book, and it is gone. There was NOTHING wrong with that quote!!! Nothing at all was said here that warranted deletion. That someone would just delete…I am pretty upset about this.

There was a thread started about assassinating heretics. It lasted longer than our conversation about whether we feel comfortable with the new translations. It is pretty important to discuss the wisdom of changes to how we obey our Lord in praying as he taught us.

At this point, I’m not sure I want to invest any more time in this forum. I love the Lord. I love the Church. I love truth. And my voice is not welcome here. If I say something that is disagreeable for some completely unknown reason, I am deleted.

I’ve been working on some Greek translation stuff. I guess I’ll post that when I’m finished and be done with this.
 
I understand from EWTN’s Fr Mitch Pacwa on a recent program that the wording for the Our Father cannot be changed by Pope Francis . Fr Pacwa is fluent in Latin, Aramaic and Greek. I have noticed in the last few days that the rosary in French at Lourdes is being recited differently: from the original “et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” to “et ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” I find this disturbing.
 
There is another thread discussing this if you are interested.
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"Lead us not into temptation" Catholic News
Within the last couple of days (December 6 or 7) I saw some comments about the Pope’s call to change the wording of the Our Father. I can’t find the thread now. Has it been taken down? Thank you
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Teek said:
I just looked up the Greek and the literal translations, and I am no Greek scholar, but it appears that Jesus actually said “lead us not into temptation” (or to the trial, or to the test.)
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I have studied the Greek in this passage, and I agree with you – “. . . lead us not (or “do not lead us”) into temptation . . .” is a literal translation of the Greek “. . . καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν. . .”

D
 
You must have either misheard or misunderstood Fr. Pacwa.

The Holy Father has supreme and universal jurisdiction over the Universal Church. The translation of liturgical texts most assuredly falls under his lawful jurisdiction.

If the Pope wanted to update the Our Father to read “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”, or “and let us not enter into temptation” those are perfectly acceptable and within his lawful authority to do, @KATRINA_68

Now if the Pope wasn’t merely legislating a legitimate update in the translation like my two examples above, but rather if he wanted to change the actual substance of the prayer - say change “Our Father” to “Our goddess Mother” - such a change would be extraneous to the purview of the Supreme Pontiff, and therefore not lawful.
 
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I understand that the Pope does not have the authority to do so. He is not a theologian. Perhaps someone who saw the program can clarify, because I’m certain that I heard him correctly, and welcome some (name removed by moderator)ut from an EWTN listener.
 
@KATRINA_68

Your understanding is not in line with that of the understanding of the Catholic Church on this issue.

The Holy Father absolutely has the authority to modify translations of liturgical texts, insofar as the translation is faithful to the underlying text and not somehow heretical.

@FrDavid96 can you articulate this better than me when able, please?
 
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Perhaps I need to write to EWTN, because my Aunt understood the same way.
 
Definitely do that, write to them exactly what you wrote here and ask them to clarify.

Post back their response if you like.
 
@KATRINA_68

On a bit of a side note, are you aware that Pope Francis’ predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, essentially did exactly what Pope Francis wants to do now - except he did it with dozens and dozens of translations, not just one clause.

Pope Benedict in 2011 promulgated a new translation of the Roman Missal which made translation choices like changing “and also with you” to more accurately reflect the underlying Latin - et cum spiritu tuo - to “and with your spirit”.

That’s just one example of dozens.

If Pope Benedict was acting lawfully in doing that, why would Pope Francis updating “and lead us not into temptation” to “and let us not enter into temptation” be any different?
 
KATRINA_68 said:
I understand that the Pope does not have the authority to do so. He is not a theologian. Perhaps someone who saw the program can clarify, because I’m certain that I heard him correctly, and welcome some (name removed by moderator)ut from an EWTN listener.
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You need to understand the difference between two things:
  1. Changing the words of the Our Father
  2. Changing the actual English translation used at Mass.
No pope can do #1. The words were given to us by Christ and they cannot be changed.

#2 is about deciding on exactly what words will be used at the Mass in English.

Maybe an example will help

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…

compared to

“Our Father, who are in heaven, hallowed be your name…”

Notice the different English words. art or are? your or thy?

Neither translation actually changes the Our Father. It’s just a matter of using different English words.

The same thing is (apparently) happening for the English translation, although this one is much more obvious. “Lead us not into temptation” is confusing because it implies that God might actually lead us into temptation; meaning lead us to sin. That’s problematic.

The Holy Father is seeking a better way to express that in English.

No pope can change the Our Father, however any pope can change the particular way that a prayer is translated into a vernacular language.
 
No one has the authority to change even one iota of the Bible. Not even the Pope.

They aren’t proposing a translation that is better, more accurate, more faithful to the words of Jesus Christ. They are changing the words of Jesus Christ.

And THAT is an anathema.

They would need to also change the words at Mass just before the Our Father. They need to say something like,

Let us pray with confidence to the Father in the words we wish our Savior gave us.

Jesus taught us to call God our Father, and yet we have the audacity to say instead:

Let us ask our Father to forgive our sins and to bring us to forgive those who sin against us. (No change for this one.)

Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus almost taught us.

The changes are BAD TRANSLATIONS. They want to change it to fit what we think he should have said, but HE DID NOT!!

We cannot do that with divine revelation. Martin Luther shouldn’t have done that. Pope Francis cannot do that!!

No one at all can do that.

Why would anyone want to? Why would the Pope want to?
 
@FrDavid96 that’s why I wanted your (name removed by moderator)ut!

I’ve got a strong hunch that Katrina heard Fr. Pacwa say something very similar, and she had a simple misunderstanding of his words.

Fr. Pacwa is an incredibly holy and faithful Priest, not to mention a scholar 100x smarter then myself - he would never, ever claim the Pope cannot make lawful updates in translations of liturgical texts. I know for a fact miscommunication/misunderstanding is at play here, somewhere.
 
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