Lead us not into temptation...Greek Translation

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@Prodigal_Son I guess you’re just a more competent Greek scholar than those amateurs over at the Vatican.

You should see if you can become one of the Popes advisers. He obviously needs top rate Greek scholars such as yourself to stop him from making such horrendous mistakes as making “and lead us not into temptation” utterly unintelligible by changing it to “and let us not enter into temptation”…

What’s next? Is he gonna change “and also with you” to “and with your spirit”? That totally changes the meaning of that response! 😉
 
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I don’t see how the “fixed” translation solves the alleged “issue”.

If “lead us not into temptation” implies that He might lead us into temptation than “let us not fall into temptation” implies that He might let us fall into temptation.

Seems like more work from the Good Idea Fairy.
 
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Spyridon said:
I guess you’re just a more competent Greek scholar than those amateurs over at the Vatican.
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When did Pope Francis say that scholars at the Vatican were telling him it was a mistranslation? I missed that news report.
 
Do you think the Holy Father would be so rash as to promulgate a new translation of the Lords Prayer without first consulting his top Greek scholars?

It doesn’t need to be explicitly spelled out in a newspaper. It’s common sense.

Unless you actually believe the Pope is some tyrannical dictator who does things on a whim because he woke up and felt that way… which is a very unCatholic attitude to have.
 
Spyridon said:
Do you think the Holy Father would be so rash as to promulgate a new translation of the Lords Prayer without first consulting his top Greek scholars?
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I didn’t hear that he was promulgating a new translation, either. I heard that he answered a question in an interview.
 
@Prodigal_Son from what I know the French and Italian translations have already been updated, and it’s being debated whether to update the English.
 
Spyridon said:
Honestly, the people who fight the Pope tooth and nail over things like this are, IMO, just as willful and insubordinate as the SSPX. It’s shameful to see Catholics so utterly defiant and unruly towards the Supreme Pontiff. The people who dog on the Protestants the most apparently can’t see the hypocrisy in acting like Protestants by protesting every decision the Holy Father makes.
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Seriously, man. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread dog on the Pope or Protestants. We are having an intellectual, theological conversation about what is a translation and what is a change in meaning.

Having a conversation is not defiant or unruly or insubordinate. Unless he is a dictator. But I certainly don’t think he is. He encourages dialogue.
 
Spyridon said:
such horrendous mistakes as making “and lead us not into temptation” utterly unintelligible by changing it to “and let us not enter into temptation”…
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That was a change to make it accurate to the Greek text. This is a move away from accuracy. Note: @Spyridon kindly pointed out my error. It was to make it more accurate to the Latin text. I should have said “That was a change to make it accurate to the authoritative text.”
 
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Spyridon said:
@Prodigal_Son I guess you’re just a more competent Greek scholar than those amateurs over at the Vatican.
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The only comments about Greek that I have seen @Prodigal_Son make were one-hundred percent accurate.

Until he makes a claim about a translation from Greek that is wrong, why would we insult his competence as a Greek scholar?

If he is wrong, point it out.
 
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@Teek

Wrong again.

It was to more accurately reflect the underlying LATIN typical edition - not a Greek text.
 
Spyridon said:
Wrong again.

It was to more accurately reflect the underlying LATIN typical edition - not a Greek text.
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Thank you. What I was sloppily communicating is that the changes were to make the translation MORE accurate to the authoritative text.

These proposed changes to the way we say the Our Father are moving away from the authoritative text.

Do you disagree?
 
@Teek Yes I would disagree with that notion, and here’s why:
Translation exists on a spectrum - that is, the science of translation is not a monolithic structure, but rather a sliding scale if you will.

On the far right you have paraphrase, then moving left you get “thought for thought” translation or dynamic equivalence. In the middle you have what’s called “functional equivalence”. Moving left of center you have formal equivalence or “word for word”, then on the far left you’d have a concordant/interlinear translation, a woodenly literal rendering.

Technically, each and every one of these methods is a legitimate form of translation which can be used in varying situations.

If the current translation is a left of center formal equivalence, then doing what the Pope wants would simply slide the bar a notch or two to the right to either functional equivalence or dynamic equivalence.

Not wrong, just different.

Here’s an illustration of the translation spectrum which Bibles exist on:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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I agree that he wouldn’t be wrong for adjusting (not really a change) the translation, but is it really necessary? Thay’s my only issue. Generally, I think we should refrain from needless tinkering.
 
From my POV sitting here @ChunkMonk, no, it is totally arbitrary and unnecessary.

But the Pope is seated at a much higher vantage point than I. He may see a necessity that I can’t see because he simply has perspective and knowledge which I lack.

It boils down to trust. Does one fully trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church? Do you really believe the Holy Spirit is nudging the Pope who in turn nudges the Church in the direction it needs to go, ultimately, to fulfill Gods Will?
 
Thanks for the scale. Downloaded it so I could blow it up and actually read it. I was somewhat surprised, but not totally so at where the various translations were placed.
 
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Spyridon said:
Yes I would disagree with that notion, and here’s why:

Translation exists on a spectrum - that is, the science of translation is not a monolithic structure, but rather a sliding scale if you will.
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THANK YOU! If I could give you one hundred likes for that I’d hit the like button for the next 15 minutes.

That is a rationale I can absolutely respect. It was the kind of response I was hoping for to answer tame my concerned reaction.

I still find the argument for complete accuracy in translation to be more convincing in this instance of translation, since it is not ambivalent in its meaning, but I can see now why you do not find it to be alarming.

I appreciate your repeated attempts to communicate this with me.
 
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ChunkMonk said:
I agree that he wouldn’t be wrong for adjusting (not really a change) the translation, but is it really necessary? Thay’s my only issue. Generally, I think we should refrain from needless tinkering.
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I feel that it is not wrong to say what the proposed changes say, but it is not the fullness of the meaning Jesus conveyed to us. So if the Pope were teaching us how to understand what was said, which is probably what he was doing, then he isn’t wrong. (Would have been nice if he hadn’t called it a bad translation that needs to be changed because that is innaccurate and puts the rest of what he says in a weird light.) That explanation lacks the full weight of Job and Jesus’ temptation in the desert and tends to indicate that God has no part in our being tempted, although we would not ever be subjected to temptation unless He permitted it. I learned so much about this one prayer a few years ago when someone talked about the various interpretations of “deliver us from evil.” That opened up the whole prayer for consideration on a deeper level, because the more literal translation of those lines was so much more amazing than “deliver is from evil.” Then I found “daily bread” wasn’t very good, because it lacked the Eucharistic connotations of “super substantial” or the futuristic indicators of the bread being requested. But I found ZERO ambivalence about “lead us not into temptation.”

I guess I think changing the wording to make it easier also makes it far less dynamic and informative. Why take away the chance for people to encounter the prayer in its intricacy for the sake of those who aren’t very interested in pursuing its meaning for themselves?

It’s kind of like taking all advanced vocabulary words out of literature and using the smallest words possible so no one misunderstands their meaning. Well, they can use a dictionary if they want to understand, I do that all the time, so why steal the richer language from those who can appreciate it?

If someone feels it doesn’t sound right they can pick up the Catechism, the Early Church Fathers, read the explanation on a faithful Catholic website like Catholic Answers, pick a Saint and read what they taught—St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas…lots of examples. Pope Benedict XVI examines it in Jesus of Nazareth. 2000 years of Church Tradition and it is amazing.

Change the wording, and why would anyone look for that richness that the Holy Spirit has taught the Church through the years?

So although it isn’t a translation that can be said to be WRONG, and it is not contrary to Church teaching, it can still do harm.
 
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DRB

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.
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From Strong’s Concordance
G3986 πειρασμός peirasmos pi-ras-mos’
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.
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G3985 > πειράζω peirazō pi-rad’-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.
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> G3984 πεῖρα peira pi’-rah
From the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing); a test, that is, attempt, experience: - assaying, trial.
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Here:
http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Lords_Prayer.html
I found both Greek and English
Greek:
Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.

The Google translate of Greek if it’s gibberish… dunno but I just couldn’t resist… temptation 🤯:

The father of the god of the earth;
Hallowed be thy name·
Thy kingdom come·
I will give you your will, as in heaven and in your womb;
even if it is the time of your time to this day;
and he hath committed trespasses of wicked men,
as we have given to them those who have been forgiven;
and thou hast been tempted,
you are alien to the wicked.
:alien:👾👻 Gotta uv Google!!! 😂

Another translator:
http://www.etranslator.ro/greek-english-online-translator.php
Our Father who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done as in ouranῷ on earth; In our daily bread Give us this day; And forgive us our trespasses, as we afiemen our debtors; and non eisenegkῃs us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Notice the difficult words the definitely better (than Google) translator program had issues with, including this one right here.
 
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