Lead us not into temptation...Greek Translation

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I understand exactly what you are saying, so I was surprised at Fr Pacwa’s comment to a listener who called in. Couldn’t find an email for him, but I posted the question to EWTN under “Liturgy”, and the auto response tells me the reply will be given soon. Thank-you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, really appreciate it. Will let you know what the response says.
 
Spyridon said:
@KATRINA_68

On a bit of a side note, are you aware that Pope Francis’ predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, essentially did exactly what Pope Francis wants to do now - except he did it with dozens and dozens of translations, not just one clause.

Pope Benedict in 2011 promulgated a new translation of the Roman Missal which made translation choices like changing “and also with you” to more accurately reflect the underlying Latin - et cum spiritu tuo - to “and with your spirit”.

That’s just one example of dozens.

If Pope Benedict was acting lawfully in doing that, why would Pope Francis updating “and lead us not into temptation” to “and let us not enter into temptation” be any different?
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The misunderstanding comes because of how it’s being defended (rightly) in the media.

Priests are appearing on TV shows on EWTN and secular media to make the point that the pope is not changing any doctrine. He’s not changing the words of Christ. Headlines can be misleading “Pope Changes Our Father” needs to be explained.

What happens is that someone hears a priest on TV say “the pope cannot change the Our Father” and then late hears that the words are being changed, and that causes confusion. Can he or can’t he?

It just needs to be explained, that’s all.
 
@KATRINA_68 read the post above my previous one by @FrDavid96

I strongly suspect Fr. Pacwa said something along the lines of what Fr. David just said, and that you and your Aunt simply misheard or misunderstood a little bit, or maybe you missed the context or heard a bit of what he said but missed another bit which lead to confusion.
 
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I haven’t listened to the media, just EWTN news, and caught that program, but will certainly stand corrected if I’ve misunderstood. My Catholic Faith means everything to me.
 
Fear not, neither be afraid, @KATRINA_68, as St. John Paul the Great and the Sacred Scriptures exhort us!

The Pope is 100% lawful, orthodox, and Catholic on this issue, despite what anybody says to the contrary.

Never let an issue like this scandalize you. You did the right thing seeking understanding and clarification.

Just please, be at peace and do not be anxious about this. It is nowhere near newsworthy or earth shattering, even if the media makes it appear that way. Sensational stories and provocative headlines make secular news outlets lots of $$$.

They have every incentive to say “The Pope is changing the 2,000 year old Lords Prayer!!! And also, poodles and golden retrievers can now become Cardinals!”

They have almost no incentive to say “The Pope will soon promulgate a new translation of a clause in the Lords Prayer in an attempt to assuage confusion among the faithful.”
 
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Spyridon said:
Pope Benedict in 2011 promulgated a new translation of the Roman Missal which made translation choices like changing “and also with you” to more accurately reflect the underlying Latin - et cum spiritu tuo - to “and with your spirit”.
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This less accurately reflects the Greek.
FrDavid96 said:
“Lead us not into temptation” is confusing because it implies that God might actually lead us into temptation; meaning lead us to sin. That’s problematic.
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Please help me with this, @FrDavid96 because either I am bull headed or maybe the arguments that I can’t let go of are correct.

Does it matter if it is problematic if Jesus Christ said it, and Scripture gives it context??

Temptation is not the same as sin. He leads us into temptation. He does not lead us into sin. True. But temptation is not just an opportunity to do evil, temptation is also an opportunity to do good. It is the critical point at which we choose for or against eternal life with God. If we aren’t prepared, we choose evil. He does not lead us to temptation and drop us off to fend for ourselves. He leads us into all good. If He leads us into temptation it is because we do not have to fall, but we can choose to let Him lead us through temptation and out the other side to victory. We have to choose to go with Him.

Jesus had it a bit worse than how he worded it for us when He taught us how to pray. Are we going to change the following verses too, claiming the Spirit doesn’t lead us into temptation? God doesn’t tempt us. That doesn’t mean He does not “Lead us into temptation.”

Matthew 4:1-3
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”

Mark 1:12-13
The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan
 
@Teek The problem arises due to confusion over other seemingly contradictory verses:

James 1:13
“No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.”

A cursory glance at this and the texts you provided combined with the current translation of the Lords Prayer can, and indeed has, fostered confusion among the People of God.

The Holy Father has decided to go with a translation that, while linguistically it may not be as literal, pastorally it is more suitable to proclamation in the Churches Liturgies. He is doing this in an attempt to lessen confusion among his flock, not in an attempt to scandalize them.

If people are scandalized by the update, it’s not because of anything the Pope did. It’s because of the sensational media, and the reactionaries in the Church, who instead of attempting to understand what the Holy Father is doing, would rather attempt to either capitalize on it or get people all worked up about it - presumably so they too can capitalize on it, in one way or another.

Do not fear, neither be afraid, for God is with us. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church.
 
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I know that many good Catholics I speak to are concerned with some issues in the Church, and it’s good to know that he is 100% orthodox. Some are saying that Pope Francis is surrounded by people who are subversive, giving him bad advice etc etc. I guess it boils down to prayer, and trust that Jesus is in control.
 
Spyridon said:
James 1:13

“No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.”
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I guess that is what I am getting at. “Lead us not into temptation” does not in any way contradict James 1:13.

To say that “lead us not into temptation” is wrong and needs to be changed, you have to also say that the Gospels were wrong—that Jesus was not led by the Spirit into temptation—and they need to be changed.

A person who is confused by “lead us not into temptation” needs to be taught, needs to encounter the richness of Scripture and the teachings of the Church Father’s. It is a beautiful prayer that teaches us reality—and Jesus told us to pray that way! We should not change that!

When there is a pastoral concern, the goal shouldn’t be to then change truth. The goal should be to conform to truth.
 
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It’s not a matter of it being wrong.

It’s a matter of the current translation causing confusion, and therefore a newer, more dynamic translation being prudential in this case.

We are to give the Holy Father religious submission of our intellects and wills - not battle him because he makes a translation choice we don’t necessarily like.
 
Certainly.

Just remember, for every one demon trying to influence the Pope, he’s got two angels protecting him - plus an innumerable host of Saints interceding on his behalf, plus the prayers of the entire Church Militant, plus the Queen helping him, plus the King Himself protecting and guiding him.
 
Spyridon said:
If people are scandalized by the update, it’s not because of anything the Pope did. It’s because of the sensational media, and the reactionaries in the Church, who instead of attempting to understand what the Holy Father is doing, would rather attempt to either capitalize on it or get people all worked up about it - presumably so they too can capitalize on it, in one way or another.
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I can only speak for myself.

I am very upset because I love my Savior, and he taught us how to pray. It scandalizes me to think that anyone could say that the confusion of some is more important than the eternal Word of God.

It compounds my concern infinitely that so many of the faithful defend it as a noble idea, or so easily dismiss Jesus’ actual words as being relevant in light of pastoral concerns.

Jesus’ words are the basis and purpose of all pastoral concerns.
 
Do not forget that the language of the Church is not French or English. It’s Latin. The Latin is the same as always.
 
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I have been in a fair number of conversations with people of non-Christian religions, and also with atheists. They all doubt the Bible because they believe we changed it, added stuff, manipulated it to meet our ends.

Endlessly we say that is why the Catholic Church is different. The Church exists to protect what has been given. We would not change the Word of God.

If these new translations didn’t change the meaning, then how would it make a difficult passage easier to accept? It isn’t what Jesus SAID.
 
Jesus never spoke the words “lead us not into temptation”.

Jesus said, in Greek “ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΕΙΣΕΝΕΓΚΗΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΕΙΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΟΝ”

Which most likely was said in Aramaic “וְאַל-תְּבִיאֵנוּ לִידֵי מַסָּה כִי אִם-הַצִילֵנוּ מִן-הָרָע:”

@Teek I am upset and concerned over the people in the Church who refuse to humbly submit to the Holy Father when he exercises his lawful authority.

I find that infinitely more troubling then the Holy Father updating the translation of a single sentence in a single prayer of a single liturgical text.
 
Spyridon said:
You must have either misheard or misunderstood Fr. Pacwa.

The Holy Father has supreme and universal jurisdiction over the Universal Church. The translation of liturgical texts most assuredly falls under his lawful jurisdiction.

If the Pope wanted to update the Our Father to read “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”, or “and let us not enter into temptation” those are perfectly acceptable and within his lawful authority to do, @KATRINA_68

Now if the Pope wasn’t merely legislating a legitimate update in the translation like my two examples above, but rather if he wanted to change the actual substance of the prayer - say change “Our Father” to “Our goddess Mother” - such a change would be extraneous to the purview of the Supreme Pontiff, and therefore not lawful.
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If the Pope wanted to translate “la manzana es verde” as “the apple is red”, all the supreme authority in the world won’t help him. It would still be wrong and he would still be a lousy translator, and he wouldn’t be doing anyone a service.

The Greek is clear with its wording: do not lead/bring us into temptation/testing/trial.

And we can argue Aramaic till we’re verde in the face, but ultimately, the inspired text of the Gospel of Matthew (yes, Matthew!) is the Greek and that word is what holds authority for us. That includes the Pope.
 
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I was just now thinking of Jesus being driven into the desert by the HS to be tempted.

God does not tempt directly, but it is part of His plan to allow us to be tempted.

Teresa of Avilla has a commentary on the Our Father, I’ll have to give it a look. What all does the catechism of the Catholic Church have to say on this phrase?
 
Teek said:
Please help me with this, @FrDavid96 because either I am bull headed or maybe the arguments that I can’t let go of are correct.

Does it matter if it is problematic if Jesus Christ said it, and Scripture gives it context??
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The Gospels were not written in English. Christ never gave us the Our Father in English. It’s always a translation.

The Church translates texts. This is just one of them. Everything gets translated.

Even the texts you quoted were translated from the ancient languages (note the plural).
 
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