Lehi the prophet, was he faithless? Can Mormons save him?

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mikehord said:
Ask your questions one or two at a time please. It is hard to navigate this forum on my end. Im not usually a forum user and dont really know how to do this stuff.

Someone asked if I God was an alien or something like that and I asked if it were possible
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For some, sure, like followers of L. Ron Hubbard and apparently, Mormons. For Christians, God has revealed Himself as Creator, not as created.
 
My understanding of Genesis 1:26 is that we were made in His image.
We are living the trial version of our physical life.
Who are you to say what God is or cannot be?
 
mikehord said:
My understanding of Genesis 1:26 is that we were made in His image.
We are living the trial version of our physical life.
Who are you to say what God is or cannot be?
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Irony abounds.

AS I SAID, we believe what God has revealed about Himself. We are made in the image of God, so why do you insist God is in the image of yourself?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Are you saying your God is an advanced extraterrestrial alien who chose to share advanced alien technology with Lehi & Co.?
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I did ask if anyone could show an earlier mobile text message or Gps style navigator in any other previous document.

Someone mentioned an astrolab but those dont tell you where to go or recieve text messages.

Someone brought up the peep stone and a crystal ball but I havent been able to locate a working one or a story about one being used to write a book.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Irony abounds.

AS I SAID, we believe what God has revealed about Himself. We are made in the image of God, so why do you insist God is in the image of yourself?
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He revealed that we look like Him. Apparently we look like angels too.
 
mikehord said:
Ask your questions one or two at a time please. It is hard to navigate this forum on my end. Im not usually a forum user and dont really know how to do this stuff.

Someone asked if I God was an alien or something like that and I asked if it were possible
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Tarquin asked questions in his original post, which I am quoting for you below for your convenience. I’m sure Tarquin would appreciate a response to his initial post. I’m curious as to what your respond would be too.
Tarquin said:
“Lehi is a great prophet. The experiences he had in fulfilling the mission God gave him parallel those of other prophets. He shows the devotion, the openness to the Lord’s will, and the determination to follow the Lord’s direction that we look for in the ideal of a prophet.”

“Dreams and visions dominate Lehi’s life; he is called by the Lord in a vision in which he sees Christ and the twelve apostles (1 Ne. 1:6–14.) In another prophecy he foretells the Babylonian captivity, the ministry of the Messiah, and the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles. (1 Ne. 10:3–14.) Even the journey into the wilderness was commanded in a dream. (1 Ne. 2:1–3.) In other dreams Lehi was commanded to send his sons back to Jerusalem to obtain the plates of Laban and later to persuade Ishmael and his sons and daughters to join them. (1 Ne. 3:2–4, 1 Ne. 7:1–2.)”"Nephi makes it clear that no matter how close he himself came to the Lord, the revelation that dealt with where the family should go came to Lehi. The Lord spoke to Lehi “by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his journey into the wilderness.” (1 Ne. 16:9) "

“Lehi was a strong man, not because he relied on his own wealth, power, or talents, but because he relied completely upon the Lord”
  • Marshall R. Craig (1977) professor of English at Brigham Young University, high councilor in the Springville Utah Kolob Stake.
In light of the Mormon view of prophets generally, and of Lehi in particular, as expressed by Marshall R. Craig in an official church publication (“official” by sanction of the leaders of the church, regardless of whether it is “official” in the secular sense of being voted on, or the organizational sense of having been installed between the pages of one or another set of scriptures, or the imprimatur sense of a publicly pronounced vatical sanctification), where did Lehi go wrong? Why did Lehi falter as no other prophet did? Why did Lehi, the great and powerful prophet leading an entire nation (in embryonic form) across dreaded seas, crumble in his faith to the point that he could not continue to follow the dictates and inspiration of the invisible God without some visible, material, mechanical tool for his “inspiration” and “guidance.” A combination compass-ouiji board-(magic eight-ball, the incomparable “Liahona”?

Does his need for a tool to guide him and to tell him the Lord’s will suggest spiritual weakness on Lehi’s part?

Does God’s need for a physical tool to guide a prophet suggest that God has restricted powers of communication with his chosen prophets?

The “faithful” answer must be something like, “God can do what he wants. Besides, this way, he was certain to get his message across. Besides, Lehi’s children were losing faith; they needed something they could believe in if they were to follow their father into the wilderness. Etc.” But what is the reasonable answer? What objective reason is there, that would apply in every such case? Moses had to lead a people for forty years. If anyone needed a ball to lead a people into, through, and across a wilderness, it was him. Moses’ family doubted him, too, yet God didn’t give him a magic ball to convince them of his leadership role. Now, I admit, according to the Old Testament, Elijah got a chariot. Whether literal or figurative, that was a means for he himself to go somewhere, not to tell others where to go, nor what was on the Lord’s mind. Elijah himself spoke for the Lord; the chariot did not. He had a mantle, and handed that down, but that was a symbol of his office, not a tool for conveying messages or telling people where to go.

Lehi was led mostly by “dreams and visions.” His propheteers can only hope he interpreted them correctly, and hope they, too, are not crediting them with more weight than they can logically, even faithfully, support.
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mikehord said:
I did ask if anyone could show an earlier mobile text message or Gps style navigator in any other previous document.

Someone mentioned an astrolab but those dont tell you where to go or recieve text messages.

Someone brought up the peep stone and a crystal ball but I havent been able to locate a working one or a story about one being used to write a book.
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You’re assuming the Liahona existed was tech. Playing along with its existence…Smith was into the occult, so I think it makes more sense it is something like a modified planchette.
 
Lehi didnt need a tool he was given it. The book Ether tells of the brother of Jared needing only light to get to his destination. Lehi left not knowing what was going to happen. He had no idea he would get such a device. It was left outside his tent door. He did need it to navigate the sea but probably could have been told where to go in saudi arabia.
 
iepuras said:
Tarquin asked questions in his original post, which I am quoting for you below for your convenience. I’m sure Tarquin would appreciate a response to his initial post. I’m curious as to what your respond would be too.
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The purpose of the Liahona was two fold. Navigation for Lehi and recognition for us.
 
mikehord said:
Lehi didnt need a tool he was given it. The book Ether tells of the brother of Jared needing only light to get to his destination. Lehi left not knowing what was going to happen. He had no idea he would get such a device. It was left outside his tent door. He did need it to navigate the sea but probably could have been told where to go in saudi arabia.
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Friend, the characters of a book are fated by the author.
 
mikehord said:
The purpose of the Liahona was two fold. Navigation for Lehi and recognition for us.
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Please read Tarquin’s entire post. He is not asking for the purpose of the Liahona. He asked about why Lehi went from receiving revelation from Heavenly Father through visions and dreams (which is consistent with the Old Testament) to receiving revelation via an object (which is not consistent with how God communicated with prophets in the OT).

Old Testament prophets generally received revelation from God through dreams and visions. Some of them, such as Moses, heard his voice. I am not aware of any instances where God spoke to a prophet through an object.

Receiving messages from a supernatural being through an object is a common occultic practice. Practitioners of the occult, frequently use objects such as a crystal ball, stone, mirror or bowl of water to receive messages from supernatural beings. These days, tarot cards and palm reading is popular. Other methods include reading animal entrails and tea leaves. Nostradamus gazed into a bowl of water to see his visions and write his prophecies. This was long before Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith was into the occult, as were many other people at the time. It was not outside the realm of possibility for Joseph Smith to look into a stone to receive “prophecies” or the text of a book. Lots of other people looked into stones for messages from supernatural beings too. Joseph Smith even made a living selling his services to look into his peep stone for treasure. It was very much like someone today going to a psychic for fortune telling.

It was certainly within the realm of possibility for Joseph Smith to write a story about someone who received messages from God through an object (i.e., Lehi) since Joseph and other people in his time were making similar claims.
 
mikehord said:
Im not here to talk about stuff you guys want to muddy the water with.
How bout you not talk about Joseph smith in bad ways and I wont talk about your problem area’s either.
The issue at hand is the Liahona.
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Feel free to denigrate any Catholic PROPHETS you choose. We will remind you about the criminal who wanted to wife swap and then illegally had a weapon in jail and tried to cowardly run away leaving his friends to face a mob
 
Tarquin said:
“Lehi is a great prophet. The experiences he had in fulfilling the mission God gave him parallel those of other prophets. He shows the devotion, the openness to the Lord’s will, and the determination to follow the Lord’s direction that we look for in the ideal of a prophet.”

…

where did Lehi go wrong? Why did Lehi falter as no other prophet did? Why did Lehi, the great and powerful prophet leading an entire nation (in embryonic form) across dreaded seas, crumble in his faith to the point that he could not continue to follow the dictates and inspiration of the invisible God without some visible, material, mechanical tool for his “inspiration” and “guidance.” A combination compass-ouiji board-(magic eight-ball, the incomparable “Liahona”?

Does his need for a tool to guide him and to tell him the Lord’s will suggest spiritual weakness on Lehi’s part?

Does God’s need for a physical tool to guide a prophet suggest that God has restricted powers of communication with his chosen prophets?

The “faithful” answer must be something like, “God can do what he wants. Besides, this way, he was certain to get his message across. Besides, Lehi’s children were losing faith; they needed something they could believe in if they were to follow their father into the wilderness. Etc.” But what is the reasonable answer? What objective reason is there, that would apply in every such case? Moses had to lead a people for forty years. If anyone needed a ball to lead a people into, through, and across a wilderness, it was him. Moses’ family doubted him, too, yet God didn’t give him a magic ball to convince them of his leadership role. Now, I admit, according to the Old Testament, Elijah got a chariot. Whether literal or figurative, that was a means for he himself to go somewhere, not to tell others where to go, nor what was on the Lord’s mind. Elijah himself spoke for the Lord; the chariot did not. He had a mantle, and handed that down, but that was a symbol of his office, not a tool for conveying messages or telling people where to go.

Lehi was led mostly by “dreams and visions.” His propheteers can only hope he interpreted them correctly, and hope they, too, are not crediting them with more weight than they can logically, even faithfully, support.
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You have missed a couple of important points, but I do applaud you for at least reading the BoM.
  1. The introduction of the Liahona did not represent a cessation of inspiration, revelation and dreams to Lehi. For after obtaining the Liahona we read the following about Lehi, “And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him; Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written” (1 Ne 16:26). Here the voice of the Lord speaks to Lehi and tells him to “look upon the ball”. The two forms of revelation are used together to guide Lehi and his family.
Further, we read of Lehi near the end of his life after his family has crossed over into the promise land, of a vision he had. He says, “For, behold, said he [Lehi], I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished” (2 Ne 1:3). This is not the same vision he received at the opening of the BofM because he now notes that Jerusalem is destroyed.

Also, Lehi says the Lord has spoken unto him when talking to his son Joseph, “And the Lord said unto me also…” (2 Ne 3:18). The Lord never ceased to communicate with Lehi.
  1. In the Bible, Moses and Aaron were given the Urim and Thummim to help direct the people (Ex 28:30). Like Lehi the word of the Lord comes to Moses and the Lord says, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him. Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence. Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will obey him. He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the Lord” (Num 27:20-21).
The Lord can and will direct his people in his own way. Whether that be by dreams, visions, or his mighty voice. It may be by a ball, the Urim and Thummim or perhaps even a stone. But most often it is by small means, even a whisper, and the world will not hear. Instead they will scoff and scorn.
 
Janderich said:
You have missed a couple of important points, but I do applaud you for at least reading the BoM.
  1. The introduction of the Liahona did not represent a cessation of inspiration, revelation and dreams to Lehi. For after obtaining the Liahona we read the following about Lehi, “And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him; Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written” (1 Ne 16:26). Here the voice of the Lord speaks to Lehi and tells him to “look upon the ball”. The two forms of revelation are used together to guide Lehi and his family.
Further, we read of Lehi near the end of his life after his family has crossed over into the promise land, of a vision he had. He says, “For, behold, said he [Lehi], I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished” (2 Ne 1:3). This is not the same vision he received at the opening of the BofM because he now notes that Jerusalem is destroyed.

Also, Lehi says the Lord has spoken unto him when talking to his son Joseph, “And the Lord said unto me also…” (2 Ne 3:18). The Lord never ceased to communicate with Lehi.
  1. In the Bible, Moses and Aaron were given the Urim and Thummim to help direct the people (Ex 28:30). Like Lehi the word of the Lord comes to Moses and the Lord says, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him. Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence. Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will obey him. He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the Lord” (Num 27:20-21).
The Lord can and will direct his people in his own way. Whether that be by dreams, visions, or his mighty voice. It may be by a ball, the Urim and Thummim or perhaps even a stone. But most often it is by small means, even a whisper, and the world will not hear. Instead they will scoff and scorn.
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When the whisperings include “tell your people to build you a house” or “feel free to marry whoever you want to as many women as you want even if they are already married” or “be a mayor” or “be a general and wear general uniform” and “ask William Law and his wife to wife swap” and “cheat people in a bank scandal” and “God was once a sinful man” and “Adam is our God” and “engage in blood oaths” and “there are men dressed like quakers on the moon” and “violate the Constitution” and “illegally carry a weapon in jail” etc etc…I think there is reason to scorn the “whisperings”
 
mikehord said:
I heard that. Since when do you kill a guy who can afford to pay for what ever was broken?
They had courts back then and there is more to the story but you know that too.
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He was killed because the peons in his fiefdom took a page from the revolutionary war and over through the despot.
 
Janderich said:
The Lord can and will direct his people in his own way. Whether that be by dreams, visions, or his mighty voice. It may be by a ball, the Urim and Thummim or perhaps even a stone. But most often it is by small means, even a whisper, and the world will not hear. Instead they will scoff and scorn.
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Janderich, Looking glasses, crystal balls, seeing stones, attempting to make contact with the dead (seeking to make the veil thin)…these are practices of the occult. Catholics don’t accept occult practices as coming from God. So, no one is scoffing or scorning God. We are rejecting evil.
 
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