Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

[Jerusha]

I have quit posting over there for a number of reasons. I have seen some members of that forum trying to bait me on a subject that I refuse to debate. I have moved, and do not want certain conservative LDS people figuring out where I now live.

It may be congenial, but there is still the underlying agenda, at least so far as I am involved.

“How the Irish Saved Civilization” is indeed a good book.

 

[why_me]

I have quit posting over there for a number of reasons. I have seen some members of that forum trying to bait me on a subject that I refuse to debate. I have moved, and do not want certain conservative LDS people figuring out where I now live.

It may be congenial, but there is still the underlying agenda, at least so far as I am involved.

“How the Irish Saved Civilization” is indeed a good book.

Of course there is an agenda since its purpose is to defend the lds church. But the posts have been respectful of the catholic church. And the catholics have done quite nicely on that forum. No catholic bashing, unlike the mormon bashing on this forum.

 

[GrammasRose]

On that thread, all were respectful about the rosary. What rule would that break? Even catholics posted on that thread, and these catholic posters are regulars on the forum. When the mods on this forum read that thread, they will see respect and friendship with the catholic church and with the catholic posters. Nothing more but respectful posts about the rosary and its meaning. And that makes all the difference.

I am talking about you always posting a link to the other forum. It is annoying.

 

[majick275]

Of course there is an agenda since its purpose is to defend the lds church. But the posts have been respectful of the catholic church. And the catholics have done quite nicely on that forum. No catholic bashing, unlike the mormon bashing on this forum.

but they tend to be condescendingly based on the LDS scriptures position as stated in JS-H. How “respectful” can you be when you start out assuming that all creeds are an abomination and all their professors corrupt?

Those forums are also not as open as this and tend to restrict threads to a “head patting” allowance for other religions to explain their doctrines and practices but they can’t explore the controversial issues of mormonism in any depth. Here you may get “bashed” but you are also very free to question any and all catholic beliefs, teachings, history etc. Do you really believe that a catholic analog of amgid/zerinus would be allowed post similar attacks on the site you mention?

apologetics are welcome here. but be prepared to back up assertions with facts.

 

[zerinus]

As I had already mentioned in post #8, those who engage in “Mormon bashing” are mostly apostates from the LDS Church with a special agenda to fulfil. They are not true representatives of Catholicism.

On the subject of the Rosary, I am not altogether against using some kind of physical object as an aid to prayer. Praying with the aid of an object is better than not praying at all! However, in the case of the Rosary, it seems to me to violate the Lord’s specific commandments that our prayers should not consist of “vain repetitions,” which is what the Rosary essentially consists of:

Matthew 6:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
You might be interested to know that the Catholics are not the only people who pray the Rosary. The Moslems and the Buddhists (as far as I remember) also do, and probably other religions as well. The words and phrases that are chanted are quite different of course; but the essential principles of it are the same, which is the repetitive chanting of certain sacred words, phrases and expressions.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

The Rosary is a meditation. It has nothing to do with “objects” by which I assume someone might mean beads.

I pray the Rosary all the time but I do not use beads. I used to count with my fingers, but then I realized that the meditations work better if I just forget about format.

However one wants to do the Rosary, that is OK, as there is no single “approved” method. The important point is that it is a meditation upon the mysteries of Jesus and Mary. For anyone to use the term “vain repetition” with respect to the Rosary illustrates quite nicely that person’s lack of knowledge and understanding of what he is pretending to know.

 

[Chris-WA]

Here is an article dealing with the apostacy that has more meat to it. It deals with the second century. We need to remember that we are dealing with a catholic bible since the passages that were cannonized came from the catholic church, as I understand it.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Corruption_of_Scripture_in_the_Second_Century.html

I always find it amusing when Mormon scholars attempt to use the Early Church Fathers in support for their claims. They like to play it both ways. They will pick and choose ECF quotes when they believe those quotes to support their specific agenda. But then they ignore the vast majoriy of what the ECF’s have to say about the authority of the church, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, their own claims to the authentic priesthood, and the list goes on and on. You can’t have it both ways. If you’re going to quote early Christian writers as autoritative on a certain subject, you can’t ignore what they have to say on others. No matter how you slice it, the ECF’s strongly believed in the authority and authenticity of the Catholic Church. I would suggest to any Mormon that anytime you read something from FARMS regarding an ECF, you should find and read, in its entirety, the actual writing of that ECF and then see how you feel. Chances are you will get a much different flavor from the ECF’s by reading their complete works than what FARMs is giving you in tiny pieces.

 

[scapularkid8]

Okay, I’m always offended when someone insults the Rosary. It has changed my life and I owe it to Mary to stick up for this wonderful meditation.

The Rosary is NOT vain repitition. Here’s an article explaining why it is not:

Click Here

 

[heathernoel]

I pray that one day you will experience the peace and calm and healing that comes from daily devotion to the Rosary.

Perhaps you object so much to it out of a sense of curiousity?

I have never heard of someone objecting to respecting our Holy Mother and her ability to intercede with our Lord.

 

[GrammasRose]

I always find it amusing when Mormon scholars attempt to use the Early Church Fathers in support for their claims. They like to play it both ways. They will pick and choose ECF quotes when they believe those quotes to support their specific agenda. But then they ignore the vast majoriy of what the ECF’s have to say about the authority of the church, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, their own claims to the authentic priesthood, and the list goes on and on. You can’t have it both ways. If you’re going to quote early Christian writers as autoritative on a certain subject, you can’t ignore what they have to say on others. No matter how you slice it, the ECF’s strongly believed in the authority and authenticity of the Catholic Church. I would suggest to any Mormon that anytime you read something from FARMS regarding an ECF, you should find and read, in its entirety, the actual writing of that ECF and then see how you feel. Chances are you will get a much different flavor from the ECF’s by reading their complete works than what FARMs is giving you in tiny pieces.

I totally agree well said

 

[Allweather]

St. Louis de Montfort (1673-1716), in True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, wrote:

“An infallible and unmistakeable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady, and endeavour, by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.”

 

[cestusdei]

zerinus, how about Pay Lay Ale? Don’t you chant that in your temples? Or did until you changed the unchangable ritual that Smith palmed off the Masons?

why me, The Fathers were instrumental in bringing me into the Catholic Church. The lds don’t expand on Christianity. They create an entirely different religion that the Fathers would not recognize as being even remotely Christian. The “dark ages” weren’t so dark. There were great saints and they built great cathedrals. If you wish to discuss corruption we could take a peak into the life of your prophet Smith. Salamander letter? Mountain Meadows?

 

[zerinus]

The Rosary is a meditation. It has nothing to do with “objects” by which I assume someone might mean beads.

I pray the Rosary all the time but I do not use beads. I used to count with my fingers, but then I realized that the meditations work better if I just forget about format.

However one wants to do the Rosary, that is OK, as there is no single “approved” method. The important point is that it is a meditation upon the mysteries of Jesus and Mary. For anyone to use the term “vain repetition” with respect to the Rosary illustrates quite nicely that person’s lack of knowledge and understanding of what he is pretending to know.

That is what the Moslems say about the Tasbeeh (their rosary). Its purpose is to do dhikr (remembrance)—i.e. to remember and meditate on the divine attributes of God, praise God, and pronounce blessings on the Prophet Mohamed. The Bible commands us to pray to God, not meditate. I suppose there is nothing wrong with meditation either. Anyone who is interested in the word of God and studies it by the Spirit can’t help but to ponder and meditate on its great teachings. You don’t need a Rosary to do that; and you certainly don’t need a Rosary to pray.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I always find it amusing when Mormon scholars attempt to use the Early Church Fathers in support for their claims. They like to play it both ways. They will pick and choose ECF quotes when they believe those quotes to support their specific agenda. But then they ignore the vast majoriy of what the ECF’s have to say about the authority of the church, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, their own claims to the authentic priesthood, and the list goes on and on. You can’t have it both ways. If you’re going to quote early Christian writers as autoritative on a certain subject, you can’t ignore what they have to say on others. No matter how you slice it, the ECF’s strongly believed in the authority and authenticity of the Catholic Church. I would suggest to any Mormon that anytime you read something from FARMS regarding an ECF, you should find and read, in its entirety, the actual writing of that ECF and then see how you feel. Chances are you will get a much different flavor from the ECF’s by reading their complete works than what FARMs is giving you in tiny pieces.

Your “amusement” was out of order. That article was not focusing on the ECFs. Its focus was the earliest writings (i.e. closest to the time of the Apostasy); and it also quoted from the latter ECFs to show how the original teachings later became corrupted.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Okay, I’m always offended when someone insults the Rosary. It has changed my life and I owe it to Mary to stick up for this wonderful meditation.

The Rosary is NOT vain repitition. Here’s an article explaining why it is not:

Click Here

You can sugar coat it with that article if your like; but saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

St. Louis de Montfort (1673-1716), in True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, wrote:

“An infallible and unmistakeable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady, and endeavour, by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.”

That is a ridiculous and stupid thing to say. We don’t show any contempt or disregard for Mary. We revere her as the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God. But we do not worship nor pray to Mary. I don’t believe she would have ever wanted us to do that. That is called idolatry, not devotion.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

You can sugar coat it with that article if your like; but saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus

how is it VAIN?

In LDS Temples ALL of the ordinances are repeated word for word every go round. Vicarious baptisms and confirmations are done at such a fast pace it is hard to hear every word. Sealings are done at a quick pace too. Sacrament prayers must be word perfect or they get redone. Why aren’t those vain repetitions? In the bible Jesus teaches us to pray the our father. where in mormon liturgy does that take place?

 

[Allweather]

…saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus

Just another signature Protestant innovation. He says he isn’t Protestant, but his words and behaviors belie that claim.

 

[colliric]

You can sugar coat it with that article if your like; but saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus

Vain repitition is saying the prayer for the sake of only saying the prayer to make youself fell better rather than to connect with God. Sorry Zerinus, but fortunatly the properly done rosary meditation is NOT “vain repetition”, it is a meditation which allows us to recall and reflect upon the many mysteries of the bible and the wonderfullness of our God and to pray to god the father, Mary, God the father again, Jesus directly, 5 to 15 times over, followed by once again another prayer to Mary, and a final closing prayer to God in the holy trinity.

if we pray these prayers for the sake of felling better, that is vain repetition. However if we pray these prayers and reflect and have faith in why we pray them, why we must pray for what they ask for and the particular event we are called to pray this decade for, that is far from being “in vain repetition” in fact it’s the same thing as when you guys just pray “the our father” repeatedly, you are doing the same thing.

 

[Allweather]

I suppose there is nothing wrong with meditation either. Anyone who is interested in the word of God and studies it by the Spirit can’t help but to ponder and meditate on its great teachings. You don’t need a Rosary to do that; and you certainly don’t need a Rosary to pray.

zerinus

This person reveals by his own words that he doesn’t really meditate upon Jesus and Mary. He gives lip service to it, but that isn’t the same as doing it. This is typical Protestant rhetoric.

Elsewhere this person wrote: “I don’t believe she would have ever wanted us to do that. That is called idolatry, not devotion.”

This is another sign of Protestant creative thinking. “He doesn’t believe.” His idea is better than God’s.