Let's be real about the shortage of priests

[starshiptrooper]

Reason is weak, however your argument uses reason (faulty reasoning that is, but I am restricting my critique to the meta aspect) therefore your argument is weak by your own standard.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Thanks for the understanding. We do disagree, but I am not offended. I don’t know if you are Catholic or not, but I hope you’ll keep participating on the forums nonetheless.

 

[commenter]

Prayer is a strategy available to all of us.

 

[Gorgias]

I believe we are here to learn. Being stubborn and unwilling to try again maybe the lesson that needs to be learned. That we are supposed to be willing to learn.
I believe we were just given more opportunities to continue learning and get it right. As many as it takes.

OK… I think I’m starting to see what you’re saying…

But, if learning is not something we can choose – that is, if it’s involuntary, like breathing – then how do we explain its value? I mean, I am breathing… but I’m not actually doing it, as something that I will to do. It just happens. So, the experience of it is vastly different than the experience of something that I actually do engage my will to do, right?

And then, if it is involuntary, then how do I explain the fact that, in seemingly identical situations, individuals learn differently? If I breathe, then I breathe in oxygen. You do, too. But, how can I wrap my head around an ‘involuntary learning process’ that works fundamentally differently for every individual?

My problem with the concept of sin, is that the church teaches it is an offense against God. I don’t believe that.

Does evil action harm the community? In other words, aren’t negative actions replete with negative consequences that affect more than the actor? If so… isn’t repentance due to those who have been harmed?

The concept of sin is that you either have to apologize to some great God, or suffer consequences for it. I don’t believe either of those things.

OK, but still, you claim that we learn. That we actually gain something from the experience. Doesn’t the girl in your example learn from stealing by expressing her remorse to her mom?

I believe learning is like breathing. You wouldn’t say it is an objective truth that not breathing is wrong, as in sinful.
We don’t really have a choice in the matter.

No, I wouldn’t say “not breathing is wrong”, although I’d agree that it’s contrary to our human nature. And if we’re saying that learning is just like that… aren’t we saying that we don’t will it happen? That we don’t share in the benefits of it, from the perspective of being a rational human being?

For example, someone stealing to feed a starving child because they have no other choice isn’t doing anything wrong. It is regrettable, but not wrong.

The Catholic Church agrees with you here: the circumstances of the act determine the extent to which the act is sinful. So, although it’s regrettable that a parent steal a loaf of bread in order to keep his family from starving, there is no mortal sin in it.

It may have negative consequences, but the action itself isn’t necessarily wrong.

I think I would say that it’s wrong, but understandable. That doesn’t mean that the act is good, just that it has negligible consequences.

 

[Gorgias]

A whole slew of lessons to be learned may available through the acting, however they will not be hastened by condemning someone or telling them they are they are sinful or telling them if they don’t repent they will go to some place called hell.

OK. But, you are saying something similar: you’re saying that not recovering from negative actions – that is, not learning from them – causes us to not actualize the self that we are supposed to be. That it causes us to be ‘less’ in some way than we can be. Isn’t that the same as the notion of ‘sin’ and its effects?

I believe we were just given more opportunities to continue learning and get it right. As many as it takes.

Hmm… so, your take on it is that, in this life, everyone achieves a certain level of experiential learning? That is, not that they experience certain activities, but they attain to the same level of understanding?

 

[angelic06]

I am going to post an idea, not because I advocate for it - I most certainly and emphatically do not - but because I wish to return to the original topic on priestly shortage (in the Latin Church). (The last several postings got mired in discussions of truth and the like.)

What does everyone here think about laity or deacons leading communion services when priests are not available to offer sacrifice - as a regular occurrence - Sunday to Sunday, or lay or deacon led parishes? I know around the turn of the century, when I was coming of age, this idea was frequently circulated.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I’m no expert in doctrine but I cant help think it would be beneficial for more people to have access to Catholic worship. It must be so hard to practice and raise Catholic children when you don’t have regular access to a parish.

 

[PJM]

There is undeniably a shortage of priests. I have heard theories from celibacy to smaller families being the reason. Popular culture. I’ve even heard some say it was the result of the Second Vatican Council and in traditional Latin societies people are in seminary at a greater percentage than diocean. I don’t subscribe to the latter but there’s so many reasons.

My diocese had over 200 priests 30 years ago. Today It’s 40. Churches are closing and being merged. It’s a crisis really and one that needs to be addressed pretty fast. Even countries like Germany who once sent priests to other countries are now in a shortage.

Something needs to change otherwise in twenty years we’re all going to be driving an hour to the cathedral of the diocese where the two priests in the diocese say Mass. Grim but when you look at the loss in 30 years and the average age of priests you see this is actually real.

Either GOD is in charge or we are.

What are YOU doing about this?

May God guide our paths

 

[Jas31784]

There’s some issues with this which the Church would have to really consider and it would be controversial.
The priest is in the role of Christ at Mass.
Only the priest can absolve sin during the penitential rite.
Only the priest can read the Gospel reading.
Only the priest can consecrate the Eucharist.
Among other things.

I honestly think allowing lay people to act as the priest would be more radical than allowing priests to marry.
Maybe deacons. That’s a different story. Actually in the early Church deacons headed what we would call parishes now very frequently.

 

[angelic06]

I don’t endorse the notion of having lay people and deacons as permanent leaders of parishes - may need it in mission countries; I was just trying to get this thread back on track on the original topic of priestly shortage when the last few posts started sidetracking into discussions of “truth”, “experiential learning” and similar things.

 

[Gorgias]

Only the priest can absolve sin during the penitential rite.

Strictly speaking, the priest doesn’t ‘absolve’ in the penitential act. Venial sin is forgiven during prayer, especially prayer in the Liturgy, but this cannot be conflated with the absolution found in the sacrament of reconciliation.

Only the priest can read the Gospel reading.

Deacons can, as well.

Only the priest can consecrate the Eucharist.

I understood @angelic06 to be referring to a ‘communion service’, at which a Liturgy of the Word is celebrated and reserved Eucharist is distributed, not to a Mass at which the Eucharist is consecrated.

I honestly think allowing lay people to act as the priest

The question also mentioned deacons performing this role, which is completely acceptable.

If memory serves, there are already Church documents which lay out the position. One of the dangers of this approach is the issue that @Jas31784 mentions: it will confuse the laity, such that they think that the deacon is acting in the role of the priest. Moreover, it will blur the line between ‘service’ and ‘Mass’, such that the faithful lose the sense of the liturgy that they attend. (We wouldn’t want folks to think “meh, it’s ok to attend a service rather than a Mass on Sunday”, would we?)

Moreover, there’s a difference between a communion service held on a weekday and one that’s held on a day on which Catholics are attempting to fulfill the obligation to attend Mass.

If a priest is unavailable on a given weekday for Mass, then (IIRC) the recommendation is that, if there are opportunities to attend Mass at a nearby parish or on another day (e.g., due to the pastor taking his weekly ‘day off’), then a communion service is not necessarily the appropriate solution.

On the other hand, if there is routinely no opportunity for the faithful to attend Mass in their region on Sundays and holydays of obligation, then a communion service might be an appropriate (albeit regrettable) way to at least create access to the Eucharist. (On the other hand, if the situation is merely that, due to a decline of available priests, the number of Masses at a parish is reduced rather than eliminated, it would not be appropriate to substitute a communion service).

Hope this helps!

 

[Jas31784]

Do priests no longer perform Mass every day? I know in the EF the vast majority of priests do. Though it is much easier to do Mass by yourself in that form, I don’t think laity are strictly needed to do Mass alone. I’m not sure how it would be done but it must be possible.

 

[Gorgias]

Do priests no longer perform Mass every day?

It’s recommended but not required. Priests make a promise to pray daily (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours).

One of the issues currently being faced is that, in many dioceses, there are more parishes than priests. Correspondingly, priests find themselves appointed pastor of multiple parishes. This being the case, two effects take place:

• since the pastor has to tend to multiple parishes, there are fewer Masses celebrated at a given parish on Sunday. (When a parish, for example, goes from “3 Masses on Sunday” to “1 Mass on Sunday”, then, it is not appropriate to schedule communion services to fill the gap.
• again, due to the “multiple parishes” dynamic, it’s possible that not every parish might have a daily Mass. (For instance, the pastor might celebrate a daily Mass at a parish two or three times a week, rather than every day, so that he can be present to celebrate Mass at his other parishes on those days.) In this case, since there are Masses at each parish throughout the week, it’s not like folks don’t have access to the Eucharist there (or elsewhere) throughout the week.

 

[Jas31784]

Oh definitely. I go to several churches in my area who may offer Mass later in the morning.
My home parish offers Mass at 4:00 P.M. Saturday evening, Sunday 7:30 and 11:15 A.M. for Sunday’s and then has weekday masses at 7:00 a.m.Mon-Friday and Saturday at 7:30 A.M. ( Also a 7:00 P.M. Novena Mass on Mondays)
Sometimes 7 is just to early for me so I find a parish in the area who does a noon or evening weekday mass.

 

[edwest211]

I find this sort of thinking as assuming far too much. Nothing personal but it reads like an homage to the god Change. There were no theological changes, except for dissidents inside the Church attacking it in the late 1960s. And it was no coincidence that their secular counterparts did the same. I was there:

“Don’t trust anyone over 30!”

“We’ll burn this country down if we have to.”

No, ONLY people, not time, changes things. The secular preachers came into our neighborhoods and told us to abandon the Church, the words of our parents, and have sex with whoever and smoke dope. And porn was cool. I stayed as far away as I could.

 

[BlackFriar]

Would you have also stayed far away from that guy associating with prostitutes, thieves and drunkards as well? He was a rebel too with all the new wine new wineskin change nonsense I suppose.

 

[edwest211]

Funny. In Catholic school, I was told to avoid illegal drugs. Pornography was condemned. Loose women were to be treated with respect but due to scandal, you should not date one. Cohabitation was scandalous. Also, to stay away from the near occasion of sin. Average Catholic teaching.

 

[BlackFriar]

You mean “cultural Catholic” teaching.

 

[edwest211]

We had Religion Class. We knew the drill and most of us practiced it.

 

[QwertyGirl]

And then, if it is involuntary, then how do I explain the fact that, in seemingly identical situations, individuals learn differently? If I breathe, then I breathe in oxygen. You do, too. But, how can I wrap my head around an ‘involuntary learning process’ that works fundamentally differently for every individual?

I agree with you in that we are all different. Our experiences as individuals may be profoundly different. This would be another issue I have with Catholic teachings. I don’t subscribe to a belief system that presupposes we are all the same in this regard. I am fine with us being different. I don’t feel a need to be able to explain or understand to the level you are seeking. I believe it is in the hands of my higher power. I believe I am here to learn. I believe I am learning even when I don’t realize I am learning. I believe I am guided to learn the things I am meant to learn. No experience is a mistake. Crossing paths with others is never a mistake. It is part of a much bigger plan which I will never understand as a human being. Honestly, I don’t feel the need to understand it. I am focusing on living, breathing, learning. I live in the minute. I strive for goodness, as it makes my experiences more positive. I try to treat others the way I would like to be treated (another piece of Catholicism I find to be beautiful) because it makes everyone’s experience better. I learn great things from looking after and taking care of others. But at the end of the day, I don’t really need to know the master plan.

Does evil action harm the community? In other words, aren’t negative actions replete with negative consequences that affect more than the actor? If so… isn’t repentance due to those who have been harmed?

Sure. Repentance to those who are harmed is a fine and honorable thing to do, and a great way to learn lessons we are here to learn. Repentance to a God I don’t really believe in is unnecessary. Sort of like when you were a kid and you did something you shouldn’t and your parent or teacher may have reminded you that the person you hurt the most is yourself.

OK, but still, you claim that we learn. That we actually gain something from the experience. Doesn’t the girl in your example learn from stealing by expressing her remorse to her mom?

She could learn something by expressing remorse. She may learn even more by observing her mom’s pain. It may not even impact her for 20 years. As an adult, when she thinks back on the event, she may learn as she reflects.