Let's get some new stats on birth control usage

[joshman1]

Heres the thing that give me pause about ABC- I’m still trying to figure out where I stand with it… but isn’t there something wrong when 1/3 of people on a conservative, orthodox Catholic site use it? Those numbers obviously aren’t representative of catholics at large, I’ve heard numbers from 75 to 98 percent that indicate the percentages of Catholics on ABC.

I’ve done a lot of reading during my reconversion and I know the path is narrow, etc, etc… I also know that Catholicism is not a democracy, these aren’t the Church’s rules, theyre Gods rules… But clearly theres an issue here no?

 

[sacredcello]

Heres the thing that give me pause about ABC- I’m still trying to figure out where I stand with it… but isn’t there something wrong when 1/3 of people on a conservative, orthodox Catholic site use it? Those numbers obviously aren’t representative of catholics at large, I’ve heard numbers from 75 to 98 percent that indicate the percentages of Catholics on ABC.

I’ve done a lot of reading during my reconversion and I know the path is narrow, etc, etc… I also know that Catholicism is not a democracy, these aren’t the Church’s rules, theyre Gods rules… But clearly theres an issue here no?

Yes, joshman1, there is a very big problem. Some would say it is the beginning of the Great Apostasy, spoken of in Catholic prophecy, in which the Church will splinter. Those on the dissenting side (in favor of ABC, gay marriage, abortion, etc) will form their own group and call themselves Catholic. While the group who remain true to Catholic doctrine will be small. I don’t mean to go off topic, but you have put your finger on something important in regard to the current practice of folks who call themselves Catholic.

 

[sacredcello]

I fully understand and agree with what you’re saying, but in the end it means that yes, a woman is forced to have child after child if she does not have a good enough reason not to. If she doesn’t, she is abusing NFP and rejecting the teachings of the Church and therefore risking her mortal soul. Is that not right?

I think that lifeisbeautiful was expressing her personal opinion and she made some good points. However, the Church does not dictate to us how many children we must have in order to be “good Catholics”. It is true that we are called to be virtuous in our application and practice of NFP, but this is not to say that we are forced to bear children against our will, under the pain of mortal sin. As long as we have “lovingly accepted children from God” in our marriages already, the decisions around responsible parenthood are left up to couples.

 

[Charlotte1776]

I think that lifeisbeautiful was expressing her personal opinion and she made some good points. However, the Church does not dictate to us how many children we must have in order to be “good Catholics”. It is true that we are called to be virtuous in our application and practice of NFP, but this is not to say that we are forced to bear children against our will, under the pain of mortal sin. As long as we have “lovingly accepted children from God” in our marriages already, the decisions around responsible parenthood are left up to couples.

That’s not what the catechism says, though. It says you have to have a “just” reason to avoid having another child and lists examples of what that may include. I realize the list is incomplete, but it paints a clear picture of what level of hardship qualifies as good enough.
A couple who could afford another, can easily cope emotionally with another, and having one would cause no hardship at all, they just sort of don’t really want another right now does not have a good enough reason. If they did, any excuse not to have a kid would be acceptable. And these issues are ones the church considers mortal. And if it was just venial, the use and abuse of NFP and contraception would not be as big an issue as it is.

 

[Serap]

That’s not what the catechism says, though. It says you have to have a “just” reason to avoid having another child and lists examples of what that may include. I realize the list is incomplete, but it paints a clear picture of what level of hardship qualifies as good enough.
A couple who could afford another, can easily cope emotionally with another, and having one would cause no hardship at all, they just sort of don’t really want another right now does not have a good enough reason. If they did, any excuse not to have a kid would be acceptable. And these issues are ones the church considers mortal. And if it was just venial, the use and abuse of NFP and contraception would not be as big an issue as it is.

My goodness, you are an intelligent young woman!

I understand your pain. NFP can be very beautiful and many married couples love it. NFP can also be very painful for some couples. It all depends on the couple using it I guess.

I don’t think that NFP instructors lie to anyone; they really believe in what they are teaching. NFP is unique to every couple.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Heres the thing that give me pause about ABC- I’m still trying to figure out where I stand with it… but isn’t there something wrong when 1/3 of people on a conservative, orthodox Catholic site use it? Those numbers obviously aren’t representative of catholics at large, I’ve heard numbers from 75 to 98 percent that indicate the percentages of Catholics on ABC.

I’ve done a lot of reading during my reconversion and I know the path is narrow, etc, etc… I also know that Catholicism is not a democracy, these aren’t the Church’s rules, theyre Gods rules… But clearly theres an issue here no?

Yes, there is an issue here: people wanting to their own thing, follow secular ideologies and do what is convenient. Easy. I don’t think this phenomenon is anything new really, just another issue, typical of the age we live in.

The problem with stats is that you can’t really trust the numbers. It is impossible to find data about every single catholic in the world. Plus it makes all the difference if the person is practicing or not. (it is the practicing catholics who are on ABC that worry me - I don’t expect anything better from others to be honest). Also, this problem is likely to be more present in the western countries because of the general attitude towards sex and procreation that is getting more and more un-Christian.

 

[Charlotte1776]

I don’t think that NFP instructors lie to anyone; they really believe in what they are teaching. NFP is unique to every couple.

I’m sure they really believe in NFP and want to help couples benefit from it, but I do think some of the information that is so commonly passed around and promoted is false. I don’t think individual teaching couples are intending to decieve, but in the NFP community at large I think there is a strong tendency to do things such only promote research that says NFP is more effective than ABC (or at least equally effective) and ignore the rest, and gloss over or fail to mention many common and important problems couples face with NFP. For instance, there is a small study of a couple hundred women where only .4% of the subjects became pregnant due to method failure while using NFP. But I see so many people and organizations use it to tout NFP as 99.6% effective and therefore *even more *effective than all forms of ABC except IUDs and sterilization. This ignores all the countless, much larger studies that show method failure rates of 94%-97%. Not bad, but certainly not more effective! In light of that, I do believe that telling people things such as it being the most effective form of birth control of all is deceptive and harmful because in addition to simply being false, it sets up wildly unrealistic expectations in couples who decide to put their trust in it.

 

[Serap]

I’m sure they really believe in NFP and want to help couples benefit from it, but I do think some of the information that is so commonly passed around and promoted is false. I don’t think individual teaching couples are intending to decieve, but in the NFP community at large I think there is a strong tendency to do things such only promote research that says NFP is more effective than ABC (or at least equally effective) and ignore the rest, and gloss over or fail to mention many common and important problems couples face with NFP. For instance, there is a small study of a couple hundred women where only .4% of the subjects became pregnant due to method failure while using NFP. But I see so many people and organizations use it to tout NFP as 99.6% effective and therefore *even more *effective than all forms of ABC except IUDs and sterilization. This ignores all the countless, much larger studies that show method failure rates of 94%-97%. Not bad, but certainly not more effective! In light of that, I do believe that telling people things such as it being the most effective form of birth control of all is deceptive and harmful because in addition to simply being false, it sets up wildly unrealistic expectations in couples who decide to put their trust in it.

Many many couples have come onto CAF sad that NFP isn’t working for them. You are not alone.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

That’s not what the catechism says, though. It says you have to have a “just” reason to avoid having another child and lists examples of what that may include. I realize the list is incomplete, but it paints a clear picture of what level of hardship qualifies as good enough.
A couple who could afford another, can easily cope emotionally with another, and having one would cause no hardship at all, they just sort of don’t really want another right now does not have a good enough reason. If they did, any excuse not to have a kid would be acceptable. And these issues are ones the church considers mortal. And if it was just venial, the use and abuse of NFP and contraception would not be as big an issue as it is.

From the CCC:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

It says just reason…I’m not sure the Church would approve not having children for* unjust *reasons.

 

[Charlotte1776]

It says just reason…I’m not sure the Church would approve not having children for* unjust *reasons.

Exactly. If you don’t have a just reason to avoid, you have to have another child.

 

[Calliso]

I’m sure they really believe in NFP and want to help couples benefit from it, but I do think some of the information that is so commonly passed around and promoted is false. I don’t think individual teaching couples are intending to decieve, but in the NFP community at large I think there is a strong tendency to do things such only promote research that says NFP is more effective than ABC (or at least equally effective) and ignore the rest, and gloss over or fail to mention many common and important problems couples face with NFP. For instance, there is a small study of a couple hundred women where only .4% of the subjects became pregnant due to method failure while using NFP. But I see so many people and organizations use it to tout NFP as 99.6% effective and therefore *even more *effective than all forms of ABC except IUDs and sterilization. This ignores all the countless, much larger studies that show method failure rates of 94%-97%. Not bad, but certainly not more effective! In light of that, I do believe that telling people things such as it being the most effective form of birth control of all is deceptive and harmful because in addition to simply being false, it sets up wildly unrealistic expectations in couples who decide to put their trust in it.

Yep and sure some people will be lucky and NFP will work great for them all their children will be planned and they wonlt have to go without sex in most cases for potentially monthes or even years at a time or be basically forced into choosing long term abstinence for fear of NFP failing yet again… NFP might even bring them much closer together! However unfortunately that isn;t the case for a lot of couples. And not preparing couples for the possiblity of NFP being a real hardship that it might not work as well as the claims say…that you might find yourself pulling away from your spouse instead of bonding and becoming closer. And sure telling people the whole honest truth might scare some people but at least then they will be prepared for it before hand rather then finding out the hard way!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Exactly. If you don’t have a just reason to avoid, you have to have another child.

Great! So why is this making you upset? What could be an unjust reason compared to a just reason? I’m sure you want to be just, right?

 

[Calliso]

Exactly. If you don’t have a just reason to avoid, you have to have another child.

Or just abstain which I am sure some here could tell you including myself! isn;t exactly good for a marriage if it occurs over long periods of time. ( I mean it is one thing to abstain for a few weeks quite another to abstain for several monthes or even years!* Of course then now that I think about it couldn;t one argue then that if one doesn;t have just reasons to avoid that even abstaining could be seen as sinful if you are abstaining to avoid?

 

[copperblade]

A couple who could afford another, can easily cope emotionally with another, and having one would cause no hardship at all, they just sort of don’t really want another right now does not have a good enough reason. If they did, any excuse not to have a kid would be acceptable.

But abstaining from sex for those reasons is not sinful, right? It’s just having sex on the infertile days intentionally?

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Why not have the 5th child? God is asking us to be generous, and chidren are blessings, not random creatures that come into being, but created in the image of God, with a purpose, and an eternal soul.

I often see comments about having another child for frustrated NFP users but I don’t see how it would help a couple who has to abstain.

In my situation it wouldn’t make much of a difference in the abstinence department at all as I would be first helping my wife through her pregnancy and then helping with an infant and then right back to being frustrated with NFP. Same amount of abstinence except with another child. Which would be nice, don’t get me wrong, but not much help with dealing with abstinence.

To me they are separate issues: whether or not to welcome another child and how to deal with a sexless marriage.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I often see comments about having another child for frustrated NFP users but I don’t see how it would help a couple who has to abstain.

In my situation it wouldn’t make much of a difference in the abstinence department at all as I would be first helping my wife through her pregnancy and then helping with an infant and then right back to being frustrated with NFP. Same amount of abstinence except with another child. Which would be nice, don’t get me wrong, but not much help with dealing with abstinence.

To me they are separate issues: whether or not to welcome another child and how to deal with a sexless marriage.

Kostya, that response was to the hypothetical situation of a couple with 4 kids that has no good reason to avoid a 5th.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Kostya, that response was to the hypothetical situation of a couple with 4 kids that has no good reason to avoid a 5th.

right, I know. You gave it because if the hypothetical couple found abstinence difficult. I was just saying that the hypothetical couple, if they take your advice, will probably then have 5 children and find abstinence difficult . I know that is how it goes with me.

 

[Persuader]

That’s not what the catechism says, though. It says you have to have a “just” reason to avoid having another child and lists examples of what that may include. I realize the list is incomplete, but it paints a clear picture of what level of hardship qualifies as good enough.

A couple who could afford another, can easily cope emotionally with another, and having one would cause no hardship at all, they just sort of don’t really want another right now does not have a good enough reason. If they did, any excuse not to have a kid would be acceptable. And these issues are ones the church considers mortal. And if it was just venial, the use and abuse of NFP and contraception would not be as big an issue as it is.

Indeed. You need “just” reason to avoid having children. You cannot avoid having children simply because you do not want children. So if your will is not to have children, and you are not able to cite “just” reasons for willing it so, you have to bear children against your will unless you wish to be in mortal sin.

Admittedly, the concept of “just” reason is not entirely clear and rather general, and this is part of the problem. Maybe you could say: “I can only manage to give proper care and attention to two children. I would feel that I neglected the children if I had more.” You are now citing a reason based on your opinion on responsible parenting, and it is not clear why it would be wrong. Another example: “I already have three children, and it exhausts me. For the sake of my own happiness, and how my mental states affects my family, I don’t want more children.” Is this acceptable? Again, it is not clear why it isn’t. So the danger is that such guidelines are so general as to make them almost vacuous of content.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

right, I know. You gave it because if the hypothetical couple found abstinence difficult. I was just saying that the hypothetical couple, if they take your advice, will probably then have 5 children and find abstinence difficult . I know that is how it goes with me.

No, I think Charlotte was just saying (correct me if I am wrong Charlotte ) that if a couple is content with 4 kids, regardless if they found abstinence difficult or easy, if they just want 4 kids, do they have to be open to more (as in not avoid) just because they do not have just reasons to avoid?

 

[Charlotte1776]

Great! So why is this making you upset? What could be an unjust reason compared to a just reason? I’m sure you want to be just, right?

I only have one child right now and although my husband and I would gladly welcome 5 or more kids, not everyone loves kids and parenthood like we do. I understand all the reasons behind the requirement to keep having kids unless you have a good enough reason not to, but I feel sorry for the women who are happy with a certain number but to stay good with the Church, they need to have more. There’s nothing anyone can really do about it, though it makes me feel better to talk about things that bother me even when there is no solution.