Let's stop using the word "abortion"

[PRmerger]

Wow, don’t listen to how I told you that my argument wasn’t for or against pro-life and pro-choice.

I haven’t addressed prolife prochoice in the above question.

I just asked you to define what a human person is.

It shouldn’t be that hard a question to answer.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually it does.

ba·by
ˈbābē/Submit
noun
1.
a very young child, especially one newly or recently born.
“his wife’s just had a baby”
synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More

Notes that it says a very young child. So the time line is a young child. So yes, this excludes the unborn.

How does it exclude the unborn?

It says “especially”. Your own definition.

And it definitely does NOT say “excluding the unborn”.

Also, here’s some more examples of lots of people defining what’s in a mother’s womb as a “baby”.

mentalfloss.com/article/49089/9-historical-methods-determining-sex-unborn-baby

livestrong.com/article/243137-the-size-of-the-unborn-baby-at-one-month/

telegraph.co.uk/sport/2017/04/25/serena-williams-writes-touching-note-unborn-baby/

So, using* your very own criterion*, (“use the definitions that everyone else agrees with”) you should be calling what’s in the womb a “baby”.

 

[tony12356]

You should know that you have actually argued for the prolife position here that we should be calling the products of conception inside a womb a “baby”–for that seems to be the “definition that everyone else agrees with”.

To wit:

wgntv.com/2017/05/24/woman-unborn-baby-killed-in-woodridge-murder-suicide/

nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/men-convicted-drive-by-shooting-killed-unborn-baby-article-1.3226919

youtube.com/watch?v=nTCMeseVJ0I

momjunction.com/articles/your-unborn-babys-development_00389566/

etc etc etc

Nice the texas sharpshooter fallacy. See you can’t cherry pick random sources and say “see everyone else uses this definition.” I gave you the definitions and you are still wrong. Medical text books even disagree with you. So if we are going to argue then use the correct definition.
yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

 

[PRmerger]

Nice the texas sharpshooter fallacy. See you can’t cherry pick random sources and say “see everyone else uses this definition.” I gave you the definitions and you are still wrong. Medical text books even disagree with you. So if we are going to argue then use the correct definition.
yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Random sources?

LOL

There’s about a billion internet sources that use the term “unborn baby” for that entity in the womb.

Using your very own criterion, tony, you must now call that life a baby.

Unless you want to retract this, and that would be fine:

If you are going to make an argument, then please actually use the definitions that everyone else agrees with.

 

[tony12356]

Have you ever had a miscarriage? I have lost 8 children

It is harder on me to lose my child than to lose a parent. That doesn’t make my parents less of a person.

I had to feed my newborns, my teens feed themselves. I guess when they were newborns they really weren’t fully human.

I know people who have had a miscarriage and who have had their newborn baby die in their hands. Its not the same on an emotional level. Also, I don’t know why your talking about losing parents, when it has nothing to do with losing a baby or having a miscarriage.

 

[Jestersage]

I know people who have had a miscarriage and who have had their newborn baby die in their hands. Its not the same on an emotional level. Also, I don’t know why your talking about losing parents, when it has nothing to do with losing a baby or having a miscarriage.

On the other hand (as English is not my first langauge), miscarriage implies the mother, though at worst is possibly some negligence, is not of their fault that they lose the baby – in short, not something we willed – it’s a tragedy, and can be the same on an emotional level for some. And unless there’s good reason, I am not going to lump people who willfully abort with people who suffered a tragedy and need our help.

 

[PRmerger]

First, it’s not a baby until after a certain time.

Also, wondering if you think it’s a baby if it’s still connected to the umbilical cord, but on the mommy’s tummy.

Fetus? Or baby at this point?

 

[10gr8kids]

I know people who have had a miscarriage and who have had their newborn baby die in their hands. Its not the same on an emotional level. Also, I don’t know why your talking about losing parents, when it has nothing to do with losing a baby or having a miscarriage.

I don’t only know some, I have been one. It is arrogant of you to assume you know what someone else’s emotions are.

Your argument, it sounds, is how one feels emotionally about the loss of a person in their life determines how human they are. That is why I brought up losing parents vs losing a child.

 

[tony12356]

Random sources?

LOL

There’s about a billion internet sources that use the term “unborn baby” for that entity in the womb.

Using your very own criterion, tony, you must now call that life a baby.

Unless you want to retract this, and that would be fine:

My own criteria was using the actual definitions. Also, please give me 1 billion internet sources and then compare it to every peer reviewed paper along with every medical text book and every dictionary definition.

 

[tony12356]

I don’t only know some, I have been one. It is arrogant of you to assume what someone else’s emotions are.

Your argument, it sounds, is how one feels emotionally about the loss of a person in their life determines how human they are. That is why I brought up losing parents vs losing a child.

No, my argument never mentioned losing parents. That’s why I’m wondering why you are bringing it up.

 

[PRmerger]

My own criteria was using the actual definitions

Yes, thank you. And it didn’t exclude the unborn.

So…QED.

You’ve actually made the point for us.

Still waiting for your definition of what a human person is.

Not sure why that’s so difficult to answer?

Is it because you’ve never really thought about this question before?

 

[10gr8kids]

No, my argument never mentioned losing parents. That’s why I’m wondering why you are bringing it up.

Odd you don’t seem to understand your own argument.

 

[tony12356]

On the other hand (as English is not my first langauge), miscarriage implies the mother, though at worst is possibly some negligence, is not of their fault that they lose the baby – in short, not something we willed – it’s a tragedy, and can be the same on an emotional level for some. And unless there’s good reason, I am not going to lump people who willfully abort with people who suffered a tragedy and need our help.

What? That had nothing to do with my argument.

 

[tony12356]

Odd you don’t seem to understand your own argument.

Or maybe you don’t understand my argument? I’m tired of people who are just going to assume how someone else thinks. My argument was the emotional difference between losing a baby and having a miscarriage. Losing a parent had nothing to do with the argument. My argument wasn’t about how human someone is, but rather the proper terms that should be used.

 

[PRmerger]

My argument was the emotional difference between losing a baby and having a miscarriage.

That’s not actually an argument. It’s not even a complete sentence grammatically.

You need to finish it: “My argument was the emotional difference between losing a baby and having a miscarriage means that…”

 

[Padres1969]

“Wrong: She miscarried/had a miscarriage.
Right: Her baby died.”

Knowing people who actually miscarried… No. Just. No.

That’s like correcting someone, who had a family member pass away, and telling them it’s more correct to say that they died. It’s patronizing at best, callous and uncaring at best.

I’m 100% against abortion. I believe that abortion is murder… But I also know that many people that have abortions aren’t doing so lightly and you’re not going to win them over with hostile language.

Indeed. You tell a woman who suffered a miscarriage, “your baby died”, be prepared to get a slap in the face in short order as a response has been my experience, at best.

And to your last point, absolutely agree. All language like that does is make you look like an insensitive boob.

 

[10gr8kids]

Or maybe you don’t understand my argument? I’m tired of people who are just going to assume how someone else thinks. My argument was the emotional difference between losing a baby and having a miscarriage. Losing a parent had nothing to do with the argument. My argument wasn’t about how human someone is, but rather the proper terms that used be used.

So you don’t like us to assume how you think, yet you assume how someone else feels on an emotional level about the loss of their child.

You just said…

My argument was the emotional difference between losing a baby and having a miscarriage.

What does your arguement prove?

 

[10gr8kids]

Indeed. You tell a woman who suffered a miscarriage, “your baby died”, be prepared to get a slap in the face in short order as a response has been my experience, at best.

And to your last point, absolutely agree. All language like that does is make you look like an insensitive boob.

I don’t understand why.

My children were alive at one time. I even watched them kicking and moving about, saw their hearts beating too. Then they, my babies, died and then I had a miscarriage.

 

[Padres1969]

I don’t understand why.

My children were alive at one time. I even watched them kicking and moving about, saw their heart beating too. Then they died and then I had a miscarriage.

Exactly, you had a miscarriage.

They weren’t yet a baby. Yes the fetus was alive, and yes they died tragically… but to be a baby one must have already been born. It’s right there in the definition of the word in every source you’ll be able to find. And it shows in the emotional reaction most women (and all the ones I’ve known personally who’ve suffered a miscarriage) have to the event. They’re devastated, but they’d never consider it close to the pain they’d suffer of did suffer, when losing a baby or child.

 

[10gr8kids]

Exactly, you had a miscarriage.

They weren’t yet a baby. Yes they were alive, and yes they died tragically… but to be a baby one must have already been born. It’s right there in the definition of the word in every source you’ll be able to find. And it shows in the emotional reaction most women (and all the ones I’ve known personally who’ve suffered a miscarriage) have to the event. They’re devastated, but they’d never consider it close to the pain they’d suffer of did suffer, when losing a baby or child.

They, my children, were born, born dead, and I buried them.

So there it is again, the emotions one has about a loss. What are you and Tony trying to say this proves?