Let's talk about Mormonism

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Let us no forget the “angel told Muhammad” - the doctrinal and historical parallels between Mormonism and Islam are eerie, almost as if they had the same spiritual source.
 
adamhovey1988 said:
It’s the whole “angel told Joseph Smith” that gets me.
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Which angel? Joseph Smith said it was Nephi. After he died it suddenly became Moroni. They can’t even coordinate their lies.

And when Nephi suddenly appeared in Joe’s bedroom that five brothers shared, the bright light only woke Joe. The other brothers slept through the whole conversation. Three times in one night. Uh huh …

The Pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple. Oscar Wilde. 1854 - 1900.
 
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This is how Mormons portray the visit of angel Moroni to Joseph Smith in the bedroom that five brothers shared with two beds.

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I don’t know about you, but I would be upset sharing a bed with four brothers while Joseph got his own.
 
I don’t have a problem with angles visiting people In the Bible. I am not sure that I would have a problem with it happening now. I don’t believe what Joseph experienced was as neat clean and as simple as the church portrays it. In the essays they released in the church’s website they are starting to acknowledge the messiness of the many historical accounts of events that transformed in discription over time. The leaders have not decided on how they will eventually deal with all the messiness but they are at least beginning to acknowledge it as they have begun to reaslease things to the Joseph Smith papers project along with making note of some of the most difficult historical challenges they face with in the essays. These explanations are still not entirely transparent and complete but, the LDS church is beginning the effort.
 
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Mormon individuals believe a wide variety of things, often contradicting each other. Which is absolutely fine in the Mormon paradigm, as long as the indivuald doesn’t teach their whatever beliefs publicly. That would be usurping the rightful duties of The Prophet and will lead to excommunication. Martha Beck called this the Mormon 11th commandment:Though shalt not commit publicity.

So you are correct, I should use the term what the Mormon church teaches, as what Mormons actually believe is all over the map. Being, there is no orthodoxy in Mormonism, it is all about orthopraxy.
 
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You may discuss anything you believe publicly in the LDS church. What you can’t do is order the leadership to do what you want them to do, especially if you don’t hold a calling that designates you as part of a leadership counsel or presidency role. This is a fine line and often Bishops and stake presidency’s have over played their hand in excommunicating individuals. They are slowly trying to make this shift. This shift will gain in speed as the older leadership guardians of truth die off and more liberal leaders take their place. Many of the older apostles have died already and more of them will shortly.
 
Catholic-Mormon said:
You may discuss anything you believe publicly in the LDS church. What you can’t do is order the leadership to do what you want them to do, especially if you don’t hold a calling that designates you as part of a leadership counsel or presidency role. This is a fine line and often Bishops and stake presidency’s have over played their hand in excommunicating individuals. They are slowly trying to make this shift. This shift will gain in speed as the older leadership guardians of truth die off and more liberal leaders take their place. Many of the older apostles have died already and more of them will shortly.
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Apparently you’ve never heard of the September Six.
 
Lemuel said:
I’m not a Mormon either but I find their history to be fascinating.
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What I find fascinating is their ability to organize their large membership. If you can ignore the doctrine issues, it’s remarkable how well run they are, and contributory with both time and money.
 
I think their numbers are a little inflated. I would feel bad if I were lds knowing my church built a billion dollar shopping center with my hard earned money that I’m tithing.
 
Apache75 said:
I think their numbers are a little inflated. I would feel bad if I were lds knowing my church built a billion dollar shopping center with my hard earned money that I’m tithing.
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I don’t follow your logic.
  • Was the shopping center deemed a bad investment?
  • Do you imagine Catholic organizations haven’t also put their reserves in sound investments, like real estate?
 
On the contrary I am very aware of them and many others. My own brother published works under a different name for awhile out of fear of retribution. Boyd K Parker was particularly keen on making sure people were excommunicated for their speaking out against the church. But he is dead now as well as many of the old guard if you will. Things are changing as a result. I just recently wrote a 6 page letter to my bishop and stake president as to all my grievances toward the church. In it I even explained my desire to unite with the Catholics and my reasons why. We later met the three of us together and they had no disagreement about anything I had said. They told me I was still more than welcome to participate fully in the church, even if I became catholic as well, including the temple. I was even extended a new calling a couple weeks later. Things are changing. Almost every conference as of late they have tried to invite people to come back.
 
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I go back to my original comment. How can you be both Catholic and Mormon? For to believe one is true the other has to be false.

The Catholic Church has been the true church since 33AD and has solid Apostolic succession with documentation to prove it. There was no apostasy as claimed by the LDS.

To believe LDS theory, you would have to deny the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Jesus Christ and it continues to be the one true church. You would have to believe Smith’s claims in the BoM and other early writings.

I do pray you find peace in whatever you choose.
 
Catholic-Mormon said:
On the contrary I am very aware of them and many others. My own brother published works under a different name for awhile out of fear of retribution. Boyd K Parker was particularly keen on making sure people were excommunicated for their speaking out against the church. But he is dead now as well as many of the old guard if you will. Things are changing as a result. I just recently wrote a 6 page letter to my bishop and stake president as to all my grievances toward the church. In it I even explained my desire to unite with the Catholics and my reasons why. We later met the three of us together and they had no disagreement about anything I had said. They told me I was still more than welcome to participate fully in the church, even if I became catholic as well, including the temple. I was even extended a new calling a couple weeks later. Things are changing. Almost every conference as of late they have tried to invite people to come back.
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There used to be a guy here who was a Catholic convert to Mormonism. He said he received communion, while remaining Mormon. 😐 I don’t think a Priest would view that favorably, but he never checked in with a Priest. Just doing his own thing. Like I said, some Mormons have this thing about building a personal syncretic religion. I sometimes think they have a view of themselves as mini Joseph Smiths.

I live in Utah, so General Conference is reported in the local news. I’ve seen the invitations to come back. I think that would only be appealing to someone who still maintained a belief in the foundational claims of Joseph Smith. I think the LDS Church believes that people who have left still believe, just have problems with this or that, and they’d rather keep them around than drive them off.

There are many of us, hundreds every year in RCIA in Utah, who do not believe Smith was anything but a conman. Every person is different. Some have a difficult transition to Catholicism, for various reasons. Others, transition so smoothly you’d never know they were ever LDS. All, just show up, no Catholic is out there proselytizing Mormons, door to door. I think if we did, we could effect a mass conversion.
 
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What business does a church have building shopping centers? I’m all for churches building or having real estate that is used for church needs. Examples like a food distribution center or soup kitchens or fields that have something growing in them to feed others. I’m not sure how you cant follow my logic. Its simple.
 
For me and my perspective of things I see them as opposites to the same coin. One side cannot see the other looking through the eyes of the head of the coin, nor looking through the less revered tail of the coin. But if you take the coin and spin it on a table. I can see both sides as one complete sphere.
 
I believe he was all of that, a common man, a con man, a thrift, a pervert, egotistical, self aggrandizing, impatient and often a jerk. Yet I also believe he had an experience with the divine. I don’t believe it was as uncomplicated and physically as visual and precise as the church claims. I believe the leadership in the church is beginning to understand that as early historical documents are being brought to light, studied, scrutinized, and published. The LDS church can never go back to before the can of worms was opened. Yet that does not prevent the church from reinventing it avoiding to more recent inspiration. The Catholic Church as a structure or institution has been reimagine itself with every new pope. The only difference is it has been doing it for over 3000 years and the LDS church has been at it for closer to 200. The LDS church is a baby compared to other religious traditions, sometimes it acts like a spoiled baby wanting all the attention and thinking it is the only legitimate child of god. In this they are wrong. The Catholic Church has gotten old enough to have all of this misbehavior as old history. They now just like God wait for others to come unto Him knowing that God is able to do His work on His own. We can just be quiet and know who God really is, in all His majesty and power. I find peace in that concept after trying sooo hard to become something, that in the end I always was; HIS.
 
I don’t know what business it is for them to buy shopping centers either. I was not privileged to those discussions when those decisions were made. Were you? Please enlighten us?
 
RebeccaJ said:
no Catholic is out there proselytizing Mormons, door to door. I think if we did, we could effect a mass conversion.
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I agree it might, however I believe that the fact that they don’t is a sign of its age and the wisdom they have gained over the years.
 
Catholic-Mormon said:
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RebeccaJ:
no Catholic is out there proselytizing Mormons, door to door. I think if we did, we could effect a mass conversion.
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I agree it might, however I believe that the fact that they don’t is a sign of its age and the wisdom they have gained over the years.
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Agreed, I don’t think we should. In the state of things for the LDS Church it would be predatory. We can pray for all LDS who are searching for Truth.
 
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