Liberal Catholics pushing changes in the church to gather in Detroit

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Our Lord is waiting in the road for them like the Prodigal Son.

 

[jwinch2]

To my understanding, if there is no contrition, there can be no repentance, and thus no absolution. Even wanting to be sorry for something because you recognize that it is wrong but do not agree with it is something. In fact, that is often a first step in the process. There is obviously a long way to go from that point but at least it is a start.

This group is openly rebellious and proud of it. There is no contrition at all nor any desire for it that I can tell. I sincerely hope that our posters as well as others such as Father Z are correct and they just fade away. I also sincerely hope that they repent before they pass out of this world so that God will have mercy on them.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Fr. Z’s inside report:

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/hello-detroit/

Some interesting comments from Fr Z’s report
A paragraph from the Detroit Free Press:

freep.com/article/20110611/NEWS01/110611007/Catholics-Cobo-blast-leaders

Kung, who could not attend in person because of health reasons, was applauded by the audience, a mostly elderly crowd disappointed at what they see as the church’s rightward turn.

You know…. couldn’t have put it better myself!

benedetta says:
11 June 2011 at 12:27 pm
Oh also I see a helpful entry that says basically “liturgy and how we utilize it to pursue our agenda”. That is it in a nutshell for sure. Maybe the whole program should be re-named “The Church and how we can use and manipulate her into submitting to our agenda of a few political items du jour”. Etc etc.
Too bad they never checked for the consent of the whole laity and Church before exploitation. Now decades later it’s not too late to listen for the reply: No!

AnAmericanMother says:
11 June 2011 at 1:39 pm
“prophetic”? Idiotic is more like it.
Here’s what I don’t understand: EVERYTHING these foolish virgins (?) want is already available in the Episcopal Church. Including for some reason the tacky vestments (for many years ECUSA was a little loopy in spots, but their good taste was unquestioned. Something has happened.)
Why do they insist in staying with a church which is, to their lights, patriarchal, unjust, undemocratic, and all that other stuff?

EXCHIEF says:
11 June 2011 at 6:11 pm
With a little planning we (OK some friends of mine and I) could have arrainged to capture their PA system and pipe in Gregorian Chant. They would not be able to stop it. I have visions of them running and screaming (OK they are too old to run)…make that hobbling and screaming out the exits never to return. YES!!

Jackie L says:
11 June 2011 at 6:56 pm
From Al Kresta’s blog:

About 1,000 in attendance tonight. By their own stats in the program:
65% are women
94% are Caucasian
97% are over 45 years old
63 % are over 65 years old
75% attend Mass weekly
3% accept all of the Church’s teachings
90% say the ordination of women is “very” or “critically” important

source: krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/2011/06/at-american-catholic-council.html

Here’s Joan Chittister’s intro to her prayer for Pentecost as published here

huffingtonpost.com/sister-joan-chittister-osb/pentecost-prayer_b_872130.html

“The Holy Spirit embodies the life force of the universe, the power of God, the animating energy present in all things and captured by none. On this great feast of Pentecost, the coming of the Spirit of God, I invite you to pray with me”(SHE invites the Holy Spirit to pray?-I think it is the inverse)

It reminded me a lot of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If I were doing a medical analogy, I’d offer something like this:

When a person gets an illness, certain cells in the body respond. These white cells ‘overpower’ the intruder and stop the illness.

However, sometimes the white cells get ‘off track’. Instead of responding to a true intruder, they attack the healthy body itself, and instead of stopping an illness, they wind up creating one.

Probably quite a few of the “old guard” started off with the idea that they were helping and were doing what God wanted. And in some cases the intention at least was good. For example, if you had (and I’m not saying this existed, I’m just offering a theoretical) a Catholic person who thought that non-Catholics, no matter who they were individually, were just, like, DIRT. . .well, that’s not a really Catholic idea and it would be a kindness to show that person that non-Catholics were not dirt, but were people.

But then suppose the nice people went a little too far and started saying that non-Catholics weren’t simply just as much PEOPLE as Catholics, but started saying that non-Catholic teachings were as ‘good’ as Catholic teaching. So much ‘as good’ that Catholics should stop teaching Catholic teaching and just kind of ‘embrace’ the non-Catholic teachings INSTEAD OF the Catholic teachings, all in the name of brotherhood and ‘we are family’ and ‘inclusiveness’ blah blah.

The good intention that was praiseworthy in dealing with the true error (the supposed Catholic idea that nonCatholics weren’t even ‘people’), becomes not just wrong, but damnably wrong, when it changes into the idea that nonCatholic teachings aren’t simply as good as Catholic, but are better, and that Catholics should reject Catholic teaching in favor of non-Catholic in order to make an artificial ‘unity’.

The white cells ‘went out of whack’.

 

[jwinch2]

I have to second the comment made earlier on that blog which stated that everything they want seems to be readily available in the Episcopal church. If you truly believe that the Catholic church is God’s one true church then you would believe that you don’t have the authority to change it. If you don’t, then why not just leave for someplace where you are more comfortable?

I really don’t see any middle ground here…

 

[the_phoenix]

"For over 35 years Pope Benedict XVI has predicted a smaller, more faithful church. The 1970 book Glaube und Zukunft, based on five lectures by then-Fr. Joseph Ratzinger given in 1969 at radio stations in Baviera and Hessen, is the first recorded mentioning of this prediction.

In those lectures the future pope said, “From today’s crisis, a Church will emerge tomorrow that will have lost a great deal. She will be small and, to a large extent, will have to start from the beginning. She will no longer be able to fill many of the buildings created in her period of great splendour. Because of the smaller number of her followers, she will lose many of her privileges in society.”

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/apr/10040711

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Are you sure he said this? Was it before he became Pope or afterward? I did a bit of Googling and am having trouble tracking down that quote. Would happen to know when or where he said it?

I can only find this when he was Cardinal Ratzinger but I am positive he has reiterated it since becoming Pope.I’ll keep looking but don’t hold your breath as I may be mistaken.t

THE WORLD OVER: CARDINAL RATZINGER INTERVIEW
Raymond Arroyo with Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

The following is a transcript of the interview by EWTN News Director Raymond Arroyo of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, which first aired on EWTN on 5 September 2003. Cardinal Ratzinger is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, an office to which he was appointed by Pope John Paul II in 1981.

And my idea is that really the springtime of the Church will not say that we will have in a near time buses of conversions, that all peoples of the world will be converted to Catholicism. This is not the way of God. The essential things in history begin always with the small, more convinced communities. So, the Church begins with the 12 Apostles. And even the Church of St. Paul diffused in the Mediterranean are little communities, but this community in itself is the future of the world, because we have the truth and the force of conviction. So, I think also today it should be an error to think now or in 10 years with the new springtime, all people will be Catholic. This is not our future, nor our expectation. But we will have really convinced communities with élan of the faith, no? This is springtime — a new life in very convinced persons with joy of the faith.

Raymond: But, smaller numbers? In the macro?

Cardinal: Smaller numbers, I think. But from these small numbers we will have a radiation of joy in the world. And so, it’s an attraction, as it was in the old Church. Even when Constantine made Christianity the public religion, there were a small number of percentage at this time; but it was clear, this is the future. So we can live in the future, just give us a way in a different future. And so, I would say, if we have young people really with the joy of the faith and this radiation of this joy of the faith, this will show to the world, “Even if I cannot share it, even if I cannot convert it at this moment, here is the way to live for tomorrow.”

ewtn.com/library/issues/ratzintv.htm

 

[Tigg]

Maybe unless more liberals decide they have had enough. And the pews become even less full, more stop attending Mass, or start attending what are called ecclesial communities, and if they carry their time, talents, and wallets and purses with them.

So be it! Just as Hezekiah repaired the doors of the temple, and declared that it and the priests be consecrated to the Lord, perhaps once again, the defilement may be removed from the sanctuary, the lamps lit, and incense burn as a sacrifice pleasing to the Lord.
(2 Chron. 29)

Cleansing is not often pleasant, and I personally think we’ll see more of the liberal influence, both politically and spiritually until the Lord says “enough.” But the Church has not turned her back to them; rather exhorted and pleaded for them to return to safety - they refuse!

 

[Sarika]

If I were doing a medical analogy, I’d offer something like this:

When a person gets an illness, certain cells in the body respond. These white cells ‘overpower’ the intruder and stop the illness.

However, sometimes the white cells get ‘off track’. Instead of responding to a true intruder, they attack the healthy body itself, and instead of stopping an illness, they wind up creating one.​

Wow, this is an excellent analogy!!! So very true of this group. In fact, a great analogy for any fringe groups (on the extreme left OR right). Bravo.

 

[CMatt25]

So be it!

“So be it” doesn’t work for me if they have been made to feel unwelcome and therefore might be led further away, thus potentially becoming void of any desire to ever return as a result.

Those speaking here of how much time others have already been given, seem to me to be placing a time limit on God. If you push them further away or lack charity towards them, and it only serves to bring about for them a hardened heart and permanently distances them, they might never return for the repentance you claim you want them to see.

It’s a bit difficult for the patient to be served if they have been made to feel so unwelcomed previously in the hospital by other patients and drs to the point of avoiding that hospital altogether in a future time period.

But I shall never agree with the arguments presented here for a smaller Church. So peace be with all of you.

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t think any Catholic to include the Holy Father actually wants to see a smaller Church. However, there are only a few options. 1) is that people agree with the teachings of the Church revealed to her via sacred scripture and sacred tradition, renounce their efforts to change her, and seek absolution for their sins; 2) is that people who do not, leave and go somewhere that reflects their beliefs about what the Church should be; and 3) is that the Church changes her teachings to accommodate their beliefs.

Option 1 is obviously the best one and the one which allows the Holy Mother Church to retain members and still be Christ’s visible church on earth. Option 2 is the second best option but has obvious faults as we lose souls, but the Church still remains the Church. Option 3 is a disaster where the Church that Jesus Christ founded no longer exists and the gates of hell would have prevailed against it.

Option three is obviously not an possible based on the words of our Blessed Lord himself. That leaves options 1 and 2 as the only viable choices. In both of those two scenarios the decision is in the hands of the dissenters. If they wish to return to the bosom of the Church, I have no doubts that she will welcome them with open arms and thank God for their return. If they do not, she will weep for their loss and pray for God to show them the way home. In neither case is it up to the Church. I pray frequently for unity in Christianity and I am sure that many other members of CAF do as well. However, people are free to reject both our desires as well as God’s will.

When Pope Benedict suggested that he thought we would have a smaller Church, in no way was he talking about what he desired to happen. He was talking about what he predicted would happen. There is a huge difference. By the same token, people on this forum, who you are disagreeing with, are merely saying that they prefer a smaller Church to a Church that no longer exists. Between those two choices, there is only one reasonable decision a faithful Christian can make.

Peace of Christ,

Jason

 

[jwinch2]

“So be it” doesn’t work for me if they have been made to feel unwelcome and therefore might be led further away, thus potentially becoming void of any desire to ever return as a result.

Those speaking here of how much time others have already been given, seem to me to be placing a time limit on God. If you push them further away or lack charity towards them, and it only serves to bring about for them a hardened heart and permanently distances them, they might never return for the repentance you claim you want them to see.

It’s a bit difficult for the patient to be served if they have been made to feel so unwelcomed previously in the hospital by other patients and drs to the point of avoiding that hospital altogether in a future time period.

But I shall never agree with the arguments presented here for a smaller Church. So peace be with all of you.

I don’t think any Catholic to include the Holy Father actually wants to see a smaller Church. However, there are only a few options on the table here: 1) is that people agree with the teachings of the Church revealed to her via sacred scripture and sacred tradition, renounce their efforts to change her, and seek absolution for their sins; 2) is that people who do not, leave and go somewhere that reflects their beliefs about what the Church should be; and 3) is that the Church changes her teachings to accommodate their beliefs.

Option 1 is obviously the best one and the one which allows the Holy Mother Church to retain members and still be Christ’s visible church on earth. Option 2 is the second best option but has obvious faults as we lose souls, but the Church still remains the Church. Option 3 is a disaster where the Church that Jesus Christ founded no longer exists and the gates of hell would have prevailed against it.

Option three is obviously not an possible based on the words of our Blessed Lord himself. That leaves options 1 and 2 as the only viable choices. In both of those two scenarios the decision is in the hands of the dissenters. If they wish to return to the bosom of the Church, I have no doubts that she will welcome them with open arms and thank God for their return. If they do not, she will weep for their loss and pray for God to show them the way home. In neither case is it up to the Church. I pray frequently for unity in Christianity and I am sure that many other members of CAF do as well. However, people are free to reject both our desires as well as God’s will.

When Pope Benedict suggested that he thought we would have a smaller Church, in no way was he talking about what he desired to happen. He was talking about what he predicted would happen. There is a huge difference. By the same token, people on this forum, who you are disagreeing with, are merely saying that they prefer a smaller Church to a Church that no longer exists. Between those two choices, there is only one reasonable decision a faithful Christian can make.

Peace of Christ,

Jason

 

[comrade1789]

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the divine power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[1holycatholic]

Catholics at Cobo blast leaders
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi....WS01&ArtNo=110611007&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0
Kevin Ryan, left, and Betty Leon, both of Grosse Ile sing a hymn during the American Catholic Council services at Cobo Center in Detroit on Friday, June 10, 2011 / WILLIAM ARCHIE/Detroit Free Press

In sharp words, a wide range of Catholics blasted their church’s leadership Friday at the opening of a three-day conference in Detroit that seeks to reform what they said is an outdated and secretive club of men out of touch with reality.

“They are like the Kremlin in the last decades” of communist rule in the Soviet Union, said the Rev. Hans Kung, a priest from Switzerland, in a taped address to about 2,000 people at Cobo Hall. “This system has no future.”

Kung, a widely known theologian among Catholics, took aim at the current and previous popes, calling the late Pope John Paul II “a catastrophe” whose tenure involved covering up the sexual scandals of child abuse, which he said continues today with Pope Benedict XVI.
…

 

[Corki]

Can we go back to the topic?

Does anyone have an update on the conference?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m the first to admit (well, maybe not the first and maybe under protest) to admit that I do not exactly shine as a representative of Christ’s charity and humility. I know that. I struggle with that. And while it is embarassing and shameful to admit it, if I’m at all to call myself Christian, it’s something I need to do.

And so when at read or see other Catholics speaking, I tend to be more trustful of those who, if they are having to speak ‘hard truths’, doing so not only with charity toward those they are confronting, but with humility regarding themselves.

And so I contrast the words of Pope Benedict who over and over has emphasized his own sorrow and grief and his charity to even the most obnoxious people. . .

and the words of these people such as Dr. Kung and these CTA people. . .

and I can’t help but see the difference. Pope Benedict really has a true spiritual power, yet instead of using it to puff himself up, he tends to act as though by having this power it makes him even more responsible to be thoughtful of others.

These people have no real authority but that which they bestow on themselves, and their words regarding those they see as ‘opponents’ are mean-spirited, hateful, and totally unChristian.

If I knew nothing more of the people beyond the words and actions of Pope Benedict, and the words and actions of Hans Kung and CTA. . .

as a Christian, I would see Christianity embodied in the Pope and NOT in these other people.

Let us pray.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t think any Catholic to include the Holy Father actually wants to see a smaller Church. However, there are only a few options on the table here: 1) is that people agree with the teachings of the Church revealed to her via sacred scripture and sacred tradition, renounce their efforts to change her, and seek absolution for their sins; 2) is that people who do not, leave and go somewhere that reflects their beliefs about what the Church should be; and 3) is that the Church changes her teachings to accommodate their beliefs.

Option 1 is obviously the best one and the one which allows the Holy Mother Church to retain members and still be Christ’s visible church on earth. Option 2 is the second best option but has obvious faults as we lose souls, but the Church still remains the Church. Option 3 is a disaster where the Church that Jesus Christ founded no longer exists and the gates of hell would have prevailed against it.

Option three is obviously not an possible based on the words of our Blessed Lord himself. That leaves options 1 and 2 as the only viable choices. In both of those two scenarios the decision is in the hands of the dissenters. If they wish to return to the bosom of the Church, I have no doubts that she will welcome them with open arms and thank God for their return. If they do not, she will weep for their loss and pray for God to show them the way home. In neither case is it up to the Church. I pray frequently for unity in Christianity and I am sure that many other members of CAF do as well. However, people are free to reject both our desires as well as God’s will.

When Pope Benedict suggested that he thought we would have a smaller Church, in no way was he talking about what he desired to happen. He was talking about what he predicted would happen. There is a huge difference. By the same token, people on this forum, who you are disagreeing with, are merely saying that they prefer a smaller Church to a Church that no longer exists. Between those two choices, there is only one reasonable decision a faithful Christian can make.

Peace of Christ,

Jason

But see Jason, this is why I shall never understand the concerns. Because opttion 3 is not possible and therefore the Church will remain the Church and still exist. So I see no need to cleanse others out, asking them to leave and go somewhere else. If it’s concern over the error of their ways misrepresenting the Church to others, then simply kindly point out correct representation to others. But cleansing might only lead to those lost souls you speak of, being lost forever.

We shall have to agree to disagree however. Corki asks if anyone has an update to the conference which I do not. So may the peace of Christ and His love always be with you as well.

 

[The_Rock]

Rev. Hans Kung, a priest from Switzerland, in a taped address to about 2,000 people at Cobo Hall. “This system has no future.”

How ironic! It is Hans Kung’s ideas that have no future, the Church is eternal!

Prayers said that they will see the light.

 

[the_phoenix]

Joining Tantum Ergo and The Rock in prayer
for the conversion of the dissenters at Cobo
so that they will follow the Pope,
the Bishops in union with the Pope,
and the Teachings of the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=569358

There is already a thread going. But, I do have to chuckle at the “wide range of Catholics…” statement. The author of that article obviously has not seen the statistics on the attendees.

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/hello-detroit/