"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

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By the way, there is no such thing as a LifeTeen Liturgy. There are celebrations of the Liturgy which may be specifically designated by a parish as LifeTeen oriented and held with the intention of being part of the LifeTeen catechetical program, but the texts of the liturgy are in no way changed by this.

If they are, then that is clearly abuse, but that is not an essential part of being a part of LifeTeen.
 
Psalm45:9:
Thank you and while I do not hold lifeteen in itself as being responsible for this; the mentality I found expressed at the youth conference was that if you weren’t like everyone else you’re not experiencing Christ.
Unfortunately that is an attitude that has existed in some form throughout history. As humans, we seem to have this desire to make everyone else do like us.
 
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ncjohn:
I would agree that the presence of the t-shirts or rings would be a positive indication, but I don’t think that the absence of them indicates anything in and of itself.

Peace,
You may well be right!
 
Suffice it to say that there is far too much here for me to read, so I only read the first one and a half pages.

I’m against the style of music used in Life Teen Masses. I, myself, am teen-- seventeen years old.

It was funny, because I was just sarcastically commenting to my friend Sean the other day about the drums and guitars in my school’s Mass, “Wow, these guitars and drums really make the Mass relevant to me, as a teenager!”

The problem with the music is two-fold.

First of all, it applies to this, and much of other other modern hymns-- so many of them are so insipid and weak. They’re really embarassing to listen to, some of them. Either over syrupy or just plain bad. How can you expect people to take the Mass seriously if the music is so laughable? (I can’t pull some of the lyrics out of the air now, but we all know at least one song like that.) Quite honestly, I’ve heard merciless mocking of the insipid songs that my school chooses. Don’t get me wrong, shame on them for mocking a component of the Mass, but at the same time, shame on us for degrading the dignity of the Mass.

Second is this-- music should lift us *up *to the vertical nature of the Eucharist, not horizontally to the material, secular nature of other music. It should aid in contemplation at the Eucharist especially. I understand that people may disagree with me, but I want something where I’m able to contemplate at the Eucharist-- no drums! Is it too strange to believe that when people hear ‘rock’ oriented music they act more casually, as perhaps they might at a venue where rock is typically played, and that when people hear other music, they respond likewise to it?

For the record, I am a classic rock nut, too. I love Eric Clapton in the Cream and Derek and the Dominos, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Pink Floyd, you name it! But I don’t love it at Mass. (I also enjoy some of the British Heavy Metal like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden).

-Rob
 
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RobNY:
Rob, you are saying what I am hearing from the young people at my parish. I have no experience with the Masses personally so I asked some of our teens.
Most of them cringe at it.
Maybe it is just the Life Teen in our area, but our young people said that the music sounds like adults trying to be hip. Like the Anti-Drug movies they show at school.
 
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RobNY:
The problem with the music is two-fold.

First of all, it applies to this, and much of other other modern hymns-- so many of them are so insipid and weak. They’re really embarassing to listen to, some of them. Either over syrupy or just plain bad. How can you expect people to take the Mass seriously if the music is so laughable? (I can’t pull some of the lyrics out of the air now, but we all know at least one song like that.) Quite honestly, I’ve heard merciless mocking of the insipid songs that my school chooses. Don’t get me wrong, shame on them for mocking a component of the Mass, but at the same time, shame on us for degrading the dignity of the Mass.

Second is this-- music should lift us *up *to the vertical nature of the Eucharist, not horizontally to the material, secular nature of other music. It should aid in contemplation at the Eucharist especially. I understand that people may disagree with me, but I want something where I’m able to contemplate at the Eucharist-- no drums! Is it too strange to believe that when people hear ‘rock’ oriented music they act more casually, as perhaps they might at a venue where rock is typically played, and that when people hear other music, they respond likewise to it?

-Rob
Re: your first problem: I completely agree. As the LifeTeen music coordinator at my church, one of my priorities is to eliminate and prevent such bad lyrics. That can be difficult sometimes, as I have discovered that my own personal preferences for lyrics may not be that of others, or even the vast majority of others, and that my personal tastes may not actually be perfect (what!! not perfect?!?). It is always an ongoing task. The problem of insipid lyrics isn’t limited to the modern and post modern era though.

Re: your second problem: You are presenting something of a false dichotomy. While the primary function of liturgical music should be to lift our thoughts towards God, this does not necessitate a complete absence of any horizontal aspect. In the liturgy, it is not just I who worships God, but it is I as a part of the whole people of God gathered there who worship God. Thus we say, “We believe”, not just “I believe.” And the texts themselves are not solely focused towards God, but also speak horizontally to us. For example, the Psalms exhort us to praise God.

But let me remind you that drums existed long before “rock” was ever a word, even in reference to stony objects in the ground. Since drums do not produce a very sustainable pitch, they are almost exclusively used for accenting rhythm, which is the real issue when it comes to liturgical music.

Most of the time, however, when people talk about rhythmic music, they do not really mean to use the word “rhythmic”, for almost all musical forms are rhythmic, even Gregorian chant. What they are trying to describe is a type of rhythmic music. This raises the question of whether certain types of rhythm are more or less suitable for the liturgy, why this is, and how we should go about defining them so that these principles can be readily applied by future generations.

The Christian musician ought to be aware of the effects of different rhythms and harmonies and be sure to use them in such a way that they foster the appropriate response, which is devotion and worship to God.

I see nothing wrong with using physical things, the stuff of earth, towards that end. When the Word became incarnate, he revealed to us that the physical is not intrinsically evil. In fact, God used a physical body, and a very physical cross, to win for us our salvation.

So, if a particular musical pattern elicits an emotional response, I as a musician should not cease and desist. No, I should make sure that I do my part to lead that emotional response to the foot of the cross, and to the tabernacle, to adore the Lord.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Rob, you are saying what I am hearing from the young people at my parish. I have no experience with the Masses personally so I asked some of our teens.
Most of them cringe at it.
Maybe it is just the Life Teen in our area, but our young people said that the music sounds like adults trying to be hip. Like the Anti-Drug movies they show at school.
I think that’s about right.

It reminds me of the time one of my theology teachers tried to play a song in class to get a point across. It was several minutes of awkward, embarassed silence.

It just don’t work that way.

There’s some horrible misintepretation that people my age can’t get into a Mass if it isn’t tailored to be “relevant” for them-- I think it’s utter nonsense.

Respect for the Mass is grounded first in proper catechesis about the Eucharist. It’s from there that the whole thing flows. If we were all properly catechized, and if our priests (not that I mean to call them into question) vigorously pounded Eucharistic theology into us as often as possible, you might see some teens actually finding the Mass rather beautiful.

But that also presupposes that you give people a reason to love the Mass. It goes deeper into the misconception that it’s all just a bunch of made up tradition with no real meaning. To attack it at the root, we need to teach people proper Eucharistic theology (including the Real Presence, the Sacrifice of the Mass, and the unanimous tradition of the Church in those areas), we need to illustrate how the Mass isn’t just “made up,” or useless traditions, and we need to have respectable music.
Re: your second problem: You are presenting something of a false dichotomy. While the primary function of liturgical music should be to lift our thoughts towards God, this does not necessitate a complete absence of any horizontal aspect. In the liturgy, it is not just I who worships God, but it is I as a part of the whole people of God gathered there who worship God. Thus we say, “We believe”, not just “I believe.” And the texts themselves are not solely focused towards God, but also speak horizontally to us. For example, the Psalms exhort us to praise God.
But at the Eucharist especially it should be vertically oriented. Not so much so with the other hymns, necessarily. I think we’re in agreement here.
But let me remind you that drums existed long before “rock” was ever a word, even in reference to stony objects in the ground. Since drums do not produce a very sustainable pitch, they are almost exclusively used for accenting rhythm, which is the real issue when it comes to liturgical music.
I’m aware of that. 😛 My problem with drums is that they’re loud and distracting… especially snares which I find especially out of place. Then again, I only said drums. I don’t preclude the possibility of some suitable percussion instrument from being used during Mass.
Most of the time, however, when people talk about rhythmic music, they do not really mean to use the word “rhythmic”, for almost all musical forms are rhythmic, even Gregorian chant. What they are trying to describe is a type of rhythmic music. This raises the question of whether certain types of rhythm are more or less suitable for the liturgy, why this is, and how we should go about defining them so that these principles can be readily applied by future generations.
Again, I wasn’t talking about the rhythm, but rather the sound of the drums.
The Christian musician ought to be aware of the effects of different rhythms and harmonies and be sure to use them in such a way that they foster the appropriate response, which is devotion and worship to God.
Amen. And when poor music directors are around, we can only pray for the best.
I see nothing wrong with using physical things, the stuff of earth, towards that end. When the Word became incarnate, he revealed to us that the physical is not intrinsically evil. In fact, God used a physical body, and a very physical cross, to win for us our salvation.
I am in agreement with you here as well.
 
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Topher:
Wow. I thought that you were a thinking man. This is so absurd that it is not worth responding to.
But…you did respond to it.

Made ya look. :bounce:
 
yeah but…what happens if you interpret often used in MAss and add drums, electik guitar, bass guitar to it? i mean its the same intentions and same words!! well,the communion and offering songs dont need all that cause we need uplifting music for that, but for the entrance and the end of Mass, joyful music would not be that bad… people here are falling asleep in Mass so we want to liven it up a bit, show what catholic joy and praise can come out!!
Steph
 
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RobNY:
Respect for the Mass is grounded first in proper catechesis about the Eucharist. It’s from there that the whole thing flows. If we were all properly catechized, and if our priests (not that I mean to call them into question) vigorously pounded Eucharistic theology into us as often as possible, you might see some teens actually finding the Mass rather beautiful.

But that also presupposes that you give people a reason to love the Mass. It goes deeper into the misconception that it’s all just a bunch of made up tradition with no real meaning. To attack it at the root, we need to teach people proper Eucharistic theology (including the Real Presence, the Sacrifice of the Mass, and the unanimous tradition of the Church in those areas), we need to illustrate how the Mass isn’t just “made up,” or useless traditions, and we need to have respectable music.

But at the Eucharist especially it should be vertically oriented. Not so much so with the other hymns, necessarily. I think we’re in agreement here.

I’m aware of that. 😛 My problem with drums is that they’re loud and distracting… especially snares which I find especially out of place. Then again, I only said drums. I don’t preclude the possibility of some suitable percussion instrument from being used during Mass.

I am in agreement with you here as well.
Fabulous! I enjoy being (mostly) in agreement with others! Of course, a good debate is fun too. . . :cool:

We run into problems when we rely on the music to give the mass meaning. As a musician, I think it would be great to celebrate mass with the youth without any music at least once, a) because it would give me the night off (haha) but, more importantly, b) it would serve as a reminder that we are there for a greater reason than the music. Music is a wonderful aid to worship, but it is not necessary for worship.

To expand on your point about the importance of catechesis, especially regarding the Eucharist (and I would add, the purpose of the Liturgy in general), it should be, as then Cardinal Ratzinger is purported to have said in “The Spirit of the Liturgy” (purported because I haven’t read that far yet), that the central act of mass towards which our attention should be directed is the Eucharistic Prayer. It is then that the Upper Room and Calvary are made present to us in substantial form.

The music that we sing should be in response to this, in fact should flow from this source. The music should be our response to God’s work among us, as we respond to the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
 
I attend the same Parish as Topher. As he said, the life teen Mass is just the same as any other exept for the more modern music…not rock music. Our Parish has done a fantastic job with our youth. The Teen Mass is very mixed in age ranging from the very young to the elderly. Mind you, we have the largest Parish in the state and have 5 Masses on Sunday. The people who the Teen Mass choose to do so, this is an evening Mass. The music at this Mass does not take away from worship, at all. And mind you, this is a very orthodox parish. Majority of these kids spend at least an hour a week in Adoration. They do charity work. they spend most of their free time at the Parish with the Core members and most of them have great relationships with the priests. Many of these kids go to daily Mass and I know this because I am there with my own children.

Our Teen Program truly is a gift from God. These kids love Our Lord and they are being properly catechized as well. These kids know what the Mass is about.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I take the Ultra-Trad title as long as it actually defines what I am.
I thought that this was the people who wanted to go back to Vatican II.

I just want the NO done the way it was suppose to be.

On a side note, how many Chastity shirts do you see at a Life Teen mass? Just curious. One of our older girls said that she stopped going to these masses. The boys were only there because the girls were more open sexually. When they got a conquest, they stopped going until they wanted another. Also she said that there weren’t that many teens there. They were mostly older adults (like in their 50’s) and people in their 20s. Is this just in our area?
I thought that I was the only who noticed things like that. At the few life teen masses that I have seen the breakdown age wise seems to be younger girls and older guys. In fact, a lot of the guys attending look to be in their late twenties and up and the girls early twenties and down. Some of the guys are pushing my age at least, which would put them in the half century range 🙂

To me these Masses seem to be a place where the old timers try to recapture their youth, or fantasize about what never was. Maybe it’s different in other places but from what I’ve seen they are just another experiment hi jacked by those who use it for their own agendas.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I take the Ultra-Trad title as long as it actually defines what I am.
I thought that this was the people who wanted to go back to Vatican II.

I just want the NO done the way it was suppose to be.

On a side note, how many Chastity shirts do you see at a Life Teen mass? Just curious. One of our older girls said that she stopped going to these masses. The boys were only there because the girls were more open sexually. When they got a conquest, they stopped going until they wanted another. Also she said that there weren’t that many teens there. They were mostly older adults (like in their 50’s) and people in their 20s. Is this just in our area?
I thought that I was the only who noticed things like that. At the few life teen masses that I have seen the breakdown age wise seems to be younger girls and older guys. In fact, a lot of the guys attending look to be in their late twenties and up and the girls early twenties and down. Some of the guys are pushing my age at least, which would put them in the half century range 🙂

To me these Masses seem to be a place where the old timers try to recapture their youth, or fantasize about what never was. Maybe it’s different in other places but from what I’ve seen they are just another experiment hi jacked by those who use it for their own agendas.
 
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palmas85:
I thought that I was the only who noticed things like that. At the few life teen masses that I have seen the breakdown age wise seems to be younger girls and older guys. In fact, a lot of the guys attending look to be in their late twenties and up and the girls early twenties and down. Some of the guys are pushing my age at least, which would put them in the half century range 🙂

To me these Masses seem to be a place where the old timers try to recapture their youth, or fantasize about what never was. Maybe it’s different in other places but from what I’ve seen they are just another experiment hi jacked by those who use it for their own agendas.
Our kids were making fun of the hippy types there.

Well, from what I’ve seen from the teens on this thread and the teens I’ve talked to, none of this is for teens. Perhaps they should change their name.

I suspect that this will die out just like the Charismatic movement is doing in Steubenville.
 
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Topher:
Right, because modern worship music is coming to steal our souls. Look out. Rock is the devil’s music. OOOOOOO. Here it comes. Rock will single handedly stop Jesus from becoming present in the Eucharist and he will rain his wrath down upon us for playing modern worship music. It is all over. The church is coming to an end. AHHHHHHHHHH!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
By the way, modern worship music is a far cry from rock.
Hey, I like the guitar, I have no problem with soft acoustic music in mass, in can be conductive to worship. However can you honestly tell me that drums, electric guitars are appropriate in the re-representation of Calvary? All this stuff about kids communicating to God in their own Rock language…I am a kid, and I love my organ and my latin! This stuff may help some kids now, but what happens down the track when they don’t like rock music anymore and they feel that organ music isn’t their thing either because they were brainwashed against it? Gee…that baptist Church over their looks mighteee temptin…😦 They’ve got Christian Rap!
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I suspect that this will die out just like the Charismatic movement is doing in Steubenville.
Is it really… is it because Fr Scanlon is retired? Or is it because Monahan is not around as much?

I have heard the same observation about a parish just south of me… that the numbers of “charismatics” seems to be much lower. The most common reason I hear is that many who proclaimed to be charismatic (wanted to be?) are now realizing they are not.

As for the thread topic… another parish near me seems to be changing in the music selections. They are replacing their Adoremus Hymal with something more Protestant (or so I have been told). And they are adding a “teen” Mass on Sundays.

Perhaps this is just another step in the progression of the parish… no longer have their Bible Study leader, their Adult Ed Moderator, their Adoration Coordinator, Mission leader, etc, etc.

So, the question is: What are the forms of Catholic education in force at Parishes that offer Life Teen? Who is in charge, and what texts/references etc are used? If they are present, are they too more progressive or more modern?
 
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MrS:
So, the question is: What are the forms of Catholic education in force at Parishes that offer Life Teen? Who is in charge, and what texts/references etc are used? If they are present, are they too more progressive or more modern?
Yes, good question. Who is in charge of ANY church program, youth or adult or children’s, for that matter?
Which goes back to my point that the execution, which is driven by the leadership, is what largely determines the orthodoxy of a program at any particular parish. The Life Teen program in and of itself is not the culprit here.
 
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palmas85:
To me these Masses seem to be a place where the old timers try to recapture their youth, or fantasize about what never was. Maybe it’s different in other places but from what I’ve seen they are just another experiment hi jacked by those who use it for their own agendas.
Now lets not make assumptions like that. Again, you can’t see what is in the heart of the people attending Mass. I go to Mass because I am deeply in love with God and I want to receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. The Life Teen Mass elevates me spiritually more than any other Mass. In my parish, we stick closely to Catholic teaching. We have everything from Life Teen to the TLM. I believe that those attending our Masses, all our Masses, are doing so to worship God. Our Life Teen Mass is just as orthodox as our TLM. We do not have rock music in any of our Masses. Our Life Teen band plays contemporary praise and worship and, ocaissionaly, a traditional hymn. It is all done VERY reverently, and in the spirit of the liturgy.
 
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palmas85:
Having never been to your church, I cannot comment on it. But I was raised as a Catholic, and believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church. When I go to Mass, I don’t expect to be attending a Charismatic Pentecostal gathering, which many teen masses, at least here in San Diego have become. Yes, I agree those services can be very emotional, make you cry and shiver and shake and feel tingles all through your body, So you must be in the presence of of the Spirit right? Halelujah brother!!!.

Well, you can feel the exact same thing at a rave or a disco with a loud sound system. Or at a Haitian Voodoo Ceremony or at a Santeria gathering for that matter. The music, particularly the drumming and handclapping invokes a strong emotional response in most people. It is a perfectly natural reaction nothing more and nothing less. Musicians know this and have used it effectively for years to pull people deeper into the music. It is a wonderful thing. I like it. It is not the Holy Spirit though.

I will repeat, I don’t think the Catholic Church needs to lower itself to using these Protestant gimmicks to get people through the doors. The Protestants, on the other hand, have to because they don’t have the truth on their side, and have to have a hook of some kind to hold on to their people.
And you can equally strange emotional and physical reactions to gregroian chant because of its esoteric feel. Fruthermore, the modern novelty of gregorian chant (it is a novelty to most because it is oustide of their norm) can be a distraction in mass just as much as modern worship music can be. You know buddhist munks use chant too. Does that make chant evil?
 
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