List of 14 States Where Governors Rejected Federal Abstinent Money

[manualman]

This is another one of those issues (much like immigration) that frustrates the dickens out of me. People polarize the issue until it becomes a false dicotomy. Reality is not a danger to us here, folks. Contraceptives exist and to provide education that ignores them is as short-sighted as ignoring the benefits of abstinance.

1. Sex education in schools should be done in segregated classes so that kids can ask questions without nonsense.
2. Sex Ed should inform people how their bodies work, how babies are conceived, how menstrual cycles function, etc. on the biology.
3. Sex Ed must include a discussion about STDs. Discuss the prevalence of STD’s, summarize the biggies, emphasize the incurability of some of them (notably AIDS and Herpes). An honest sex ed program must emphasize CLEARLY that ONLY abstinance is 100% reliable as a way to prevent all STD transmission. Abstinance needs to be clearly defined so that kids know that they can still get an STD even if they haven’t quite gone ‘all the way.’ (and so that future presidents know who they have had sex with)
4. Contraceptives should be discussed with ALL the relevant data. The method of operation should be discussed so that people understand that some potentially operate via killing young embryos. The failure rate must be honestly presented so that kids don’t get the nonsensical idea that using a condom renders them truly SAFE (from either pregnancy or STD). (The ‘safe sex’ programs in place when I was in high school probably KILLED kids by leading them to believe that they would be safe having sex as much as they liked, as long as they used a condom). Ethical problems with contraception should be discussed (dogmatically so in catholic schools, discussionally in public ones) and kids should be sent home with handouts to be initialled by parents to indicate that they have discussed their personal ethical views on the matter with the kids. FACTS about NFP and its basis in the healthy function of the female body should be presented (not denigration of it as ‘rythym’ 30 years after NFP became symptom based, like was the case at my school)
5. Sexuality must be presented as deeply rooted in the human psyche and not a merely physical activity like soccer. Don’t laugh, that’s how it was presented in MY public high school. There is no reason that public schools need to pretend that humans are mere random bags of chemical reactions. Public education can discuss the emotional problems of promiscuity, the prevalence of violence among the promiscuous, the risk of disease transmission and the effect of promiscuity on ones view of his/her own dignity. Again, a mechanism should be thought up to ensure that kids have had a discussion of sexual morality with their parents.

As catholics, we have nothing to fear from a spin-free presentation to teenagers about human sexuality. Our culture clearly is attempting to rebel against our basic human nature. True factual presentation of all the facts merely bolsters our case that sex is special, permanently bonds a couple together and when abused has legion of physical, emotional and psychological risks.

Too often catholics react against ALL sex education because so many of the actual sex ed programs have been hijacked by those seeking to destigmatize promiscuity and promote contraception. The solution is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, it is to simply change the water in the bath!

 

[Mousey]

I would agree that only abstinance provides perfect protection but condoms have undeniably saved tens of thousands if not millions from HIV infection as well as the transmission of other cronic if not life threatening diseases. I certainly agree that abstinance should be taught and upheld, but I believe, that since the vast majority of people are in favor of contraception and its use, that this needs to be taught as well. We need to protect kids from death and disease, not protect them from information.

It is our obligation as parents to morally form our childrens education. Condoms are an intrinsic evil. Artificial birth control is an intrinsic evil. When it come to public education they are bigoted in their presentation of NFP and abortion. One book described opposition to abortion because it was “potential” life. That same book had so much misinformation on NFP that it was disgusting. Information that is bigoted and misleading is worst than no information at all. To teach artificial contraception is a breach of the Constitution. It is impossible to teach such a subject without morality. Condoms may save human lives but it is for sure that they destroy the life of the soul.

For those who want to save their life will loose it and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

This is another one of those issues (much like immigration) that frustrates the dickens out of me. People polarize the issue until it becomes a false dicotomy. Reality is not a danger to us here, folks. Contraceptives exist and to provide education that ignores them is as short-sighted as ignoring the benefits of abstinance.

1. Sex education in schools should be done in segregated classes so that kids can ask questions without nonsense.
2. Sex Ed should inform people how their bodies work, how babies are conceived, how menstrual cycles function, etc. on the biology.
3. Sex Ed must include a discussion about STDs. Discuss the prevalence of STD’s, summarize the biggies, emphasize the incurability of some of them (notably AIDS and Herpes). An honest sex ed program must emphasize CLEARLY that ONLY abstinance is 100% reliable as a way to prevent all STD transmission. Abstinance needs to be clearly defined so that kids know that they can still get an STD even if they haven’t quite gone ‘all the way.’ (and so that future presidents know who they have had sex with)
4. Contraceptives should be discussed with ALL the relevant data. The method of operation should be discussed so that people understand that some potentially operate via killing young embryos. The failure rate must be honestly presented so that kids don’t get the nonsensical idea that using a condom renders them truly SAFE (from either pregnancy or STD). (The ‘safe sex’ programs in place when I was in high school probably KILLED kids by leading them to believe that they would be safe having sex as much as they liked, as long as they used a condom). Ethical problems with contraception should be discussed (dogmatically so in catholic schools, discussionally in public ones) and kids should be sent home with handouts to be initialled by parents to indicate that they have discussed their personal ethical views on the matter with the kids. FACTS about NFP and its basis in the healthy function of the female body should be presented (not denigration of it as ‘rythym’ 30 years after NFP became symptom based, like was the case at my school)
5. Sexuality must be presented as deeply rooted in the human psyche and not a merely physical activity like soccer. Don’t laugh, that’s how it was presented in MY public high school. There is no reason that public schools need to pretend that humans are mere random bags of chemical reactions. Public education can discuss the emotional problems of promiscuity, the prevalence of violence among the promiscuous, the risk of disease transmission and the effect of promiscuity on ones view of his/her own dignity. Again, a mechanism should be thought up to ensure that kids have had a discussion of sexual morality with their parents.

As catholics, we have nothing to fear from a spin-free presentation to teenagers about human sexuality. Our culture clearly is attempting to rebel against our basic human nature. True factual presentation of all the facts merely bolsters our case that sex is special, permanently bonds a couple together and when abused has legion of physical, emotional and psychological risks.

Too often catholics react against ALL sex education because so many of the actual sex ed programs have been hijacked by those seeking to destigmatize promiscuity and promote contraception. The solution is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, it is to simply change the water in the bath!

I would agree with nearly everything you have said. I might be in disagreement about the ethics issue. I’m not sure about that and would have to think about it. but you have i think a fair and balanced plan and one i would in general be happy with.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

It is our obligation as parents to morally form our childrens education. Condoms are an intrinsic evil. Artificial birth control is an intrinsic evil. When it come to public education they are bigoted in their presentation of NFP and abortion. One book described opposition to abortion because it was “potential” life. That same book had so much misinformation on NFP that it was disgusting. Information that is bigoted and misleading is worst than no information at all. To teach artificial contraception is a breach of the Constitution. It is impossible to teach such a subject without morality. Condoms may save human lives but it is for sure that they destroy the life of the soul.

You may indeed believe contraception to be an intrinsic evil. That does not change the fact that the vast majority of Americans use it for a variety of reasons. I don’t know much about NFP myself, I have deep suspicions about it, and generally dont expect it is very dependable, at least that’s what I learned many years ago. It’s not particularly useful except to people who are seriously comminted to its use. Most people lose track and end up pregnant. Many women are not regular and I think this makes it virtually unuseable by some. I may be incorrect, but I believe that.

I think you can safely conclude that it is not against the constituttion. That’s been litigated. I can see you are angry and don’t like this, but as another poster said, yuou must face the reality that people are just not going to abandon contraception, either in the general public or from the medical community which recognizes the health issues involved with unprotected sex.

 

[manualman]

I would agree with nearly everything you have said. I might be in disagreement about the ethics issue. I’m not sure about that and would have to think about it. but you have i think a fair and balanced plan and one i would in general be happy with.

How about that! Something we can agree upon. Where’s a nice frothy mug icon when I need one? Cheers!

Maybe I’m not just out to get you after all, eh?

Happy New Year - be back on the 2nd to take my beatings!

 

[Mousey]

You may indeed believe contraception to be an intrinsic evil. That does not change the fact that the vast majority of Americans use it for a variety of reasons. I don’t know much about NFP myself, I have deep suspicions about it, and generally dont expect it is very dependable, at least that’s what I learned many years ago. It’s not particularly useful except to people who are seriously comminted to its use. Most people lose track and end up pregnant. Many women are not regular and I think this makes it virtually unuseable by some. I may be incorrect, but I believe that.

I think you can safely conclude that it is not against the constituttion. That’s been litigated. I can see you are angry and don’t like this, but as another poster said, yuou must face the reality that people are just not going to abandon contraception, either in the general public or from the medical community which recognizes the health issues involved with unprotected sex.

I see nothing in my post that denotes anger:shrug: What litigation? The only litigation that I know of supports my view point. When people are ignorant of NFP the first thing they speak of is being regular a sure give away. There was a method called rhythm that is very outdated. That relied on regularity. I know women who’s cycles are 17 to 56 days. They used NFP precisely because they were so irregular. It has been taught to the blind. As I have already stated it is the Church that states contraception is intrinsically evil. Because a majority of people have committed a sin does not make it not a sin.

The fact is people will sin. Our duty to God is to call each other to repent. The fact that people will continue to sin does not mean we should give up and say go ahead. That argument could have been used about the terrible injustice that was committed against African Americans. It would have been a terrible injustice if we would have given up just because the majority of people behave immoral way.

 

[mapleoak]

STDs are indeed a problem, which is why teens need medically accurate information about them and ways to prevent them----all ways to help prevent them, including abstinence, ways to have safer sex and the need to be extremely choosy in one’s sexual partner.

No they need to be instructed in morality. Not how to protect ones body while sinning.

Certainly, if one ups the majority, one would assume that the rate of correctness would improve. Obviously this never eliminates the possibility that a clear majority can be in error, and no doubt there are examples of this.

Obviously, the more a society declines toward moral decay, as with the U.S. which is steeped in feminist ideals, the less reliable the majority is as a benchmark. The ways of the world follow after the prince of the earth.

I would agree that only abstinance provides perfect protection but condoms have undeniably saved tens of thousands if not millions from HIV infection as well as the transmission of other cronic if not life threatening diseases.

Can you prove it? I don’t think so. Besides the point though.

I certainly agree that abstinance should be taught and upheld, but I believe, that since the vast majority of people are in favor of contraception and its use, that this needs to be taught as well. We need to protect kids from death and disease, not protect them from information.

No, what we need to do is outlaw contraception since the vast majority of people (vast majority according to you) are incapable of crawling out the clutches of the culture of immorality and rejecting it on their own. This is an obligation of a government which has the true welfare of its citizenry in mind.

**And I would beg to differ with you on the health question. Have you heard of HIV? Condoms are a huge health benefit here. **

Condoms are a health benefit as much as wearing bullet resistant vests are for letting kids play with guns.

 

[manualman]

Oops, deleted post.

 

[mapleoak]

This is another one of those issues (much like immigration) that frustrates the dickens out of me. People polarize the issue until it becomes a false dicotomy. Reality is not a danger to us here, folks. Contraceptives exist and to provide education that ignores them is as short-sighted as ignoring the benefits of abstinance.

Nope, contraceptives exist to allow folks to engage in immorality, to the detriment of both self and society as a whole. They are intrisically immoral.

Sex education in schools should be done in segregated classes so that kids can ask questions without nonsense.

It should not be done in segregated fashion, rather it should not be done at all.

Sex Ed should inform people how their bodies work, how babies are conceived, how menstrual cycles function, etc. on the biology.

This is a parental function, not a public school function.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

This is a parental function, not a public school function.

While I agree with the idea sadly some parents dont talk to their kids about this (Sex Ed should inform people how their bodies work, how babies are conceived, how menstrual cycles function, etc. on the biology.) so how do these kids learn the “basics”??

 

[mapleoak]

Contraceptives should be discussed with ALL the relevant data. The method of operation should be discussed so that people understand that some potentially operate via killing young embryos.

Another reason contraception should not be taught at all. Something that has the potential to kill someone should not in anyway, shape, or form, be presented as an ‘informed and safe alternative’ to anything.

 

[manualman]

1. No, what we need to do is outlaw contraception since the vast majority of people (vast majority according to you) are incapable of crawling out the clutches of the culture of immorality and rejecting it on their own. This is an obligation of a government which has the true welfare of its citizenry in mind.
2. Condoms are a health benefit as much as wearing bullet resistant vests are for letting kids play with guns.

Don’t be more catholic than the pope! Look me up, I’m a frequent apologist of church teaching on contraception at CAF. But I’m not aware of any church teaching that advocates making it illegal in a country where the populace desires it. Unlike abortion, ABC does not violate anyone’s fundamental human rights. Even the pill and UID’s do not TYPICALLY operate as abortifacients, so to ban them based on an unknown rate of abortifacient operation would be like banning the automobile because it is known to regularly kill people as a side effect of its main function. I think the catholic position is to advocate and educate the population against the harmful AND sinful use of contraceptives. If that is acheived to the point where the majority agree THEN it might be appropriate to inscribe it into law. Certainly not in the culture we have today. This is so because it is a moral issue, but not inherently a human rights issue.

1. Don’t mangle my favorite analogy! People love to say that condom campaigns save lives. I think not. Such advocates assume that the condom and the campaigns that push them have no effect on the promiscuity rate. Since they start with this assumption, they logically conclude that the imperfect protection offered by the condom will lead to reduced rates of pregnancy and disease transmission. I like to ask such advocates what they think would happen to death rates in gang ridden areas if I handed out bullet proof vests to gang bangers. I predict a rise in deaths. WHY? Because the vest emboldens the wearer. He feels protected and engages in riskier behavior and does it more often than he otherwise would - just like the kid with a condom and a ‘safe sex’ message in his head.

 

[manualman]

Another reason contraception should not be taught at all. Something that has the potential to kill someone should not in anyway, shape, or form, be presented as an ‘informed and safe alternative’ to anything.

Education that pretends certain facts don’t exist is not education, it is propaganda. Better to tell them what is out there, and tell the WHOLE story, which isn’t very kind to ABC when you know the whole truth.

 

[Mr.Bee]

This is a parental function, not a public school function.

Okay.

So getting back to my previous point (post #33, and nice additional food for thought by SpiritMeadow #37) It would seem to me that most people disagree with the above statement.

I personally believe such matter are for the parents to decide, but I keep seeing and hearing otherwise.

So does it appears most parents these days agree with contraception and underage sexual activity? (as encouraged by the public schools) And if so are the rest of us forced to accept it?

Help me out here, I’m in a corner

 

[mapleoak]

Don’t be more catholic than the pope! Look me up, I’m a frequent apologist of church teaching on contraception at CAF. But I’m not aware of any church teaching that advocates making it illegal in a country where the populace desires it.

I am not attacking your position as to whether contraception should be illegal or not, only stating my opinion that it should be illegal. Yes I have read many of your posts against contraception itself and believe I understand your stance.

1. Don’t mangle my favorite analogy!

Sorry, didn’t know you had one!

 

[mapleoak]

So getting back to my previous point (post #33, and nice additional food for thought by SpiritMeadow #37) It would seem to me that most people disagree with the above statement.

I personally believe such matter are for the parents to decide, but I keep seeing and hearing otherwise.

So does it appears most parents these days agree with contraception and underage sexual activity? (as encouraged by the public schools) And if so are the rest of us forced to accept it?

Help me out here, I’m in a corner

I would posit that in a society which has little by little lost its respect for life and morals and detracted to the degree thats its own government no longer upholds the sanctity of life, especially that of the unborn, it is a reflection on the foolishness of ‘going with the flow’. Specifically agreeing with contraception and underage sexual activity because most parents these days agree with it. We will have it forced upon us to the extent that we allow it to happen and don’t start reversing the trends.

 

[Mr.Bee]

I would posit that in a society which has little by little lost its respect for life and morals and detracted to the degree thats its own government no longer upholds the sanctity of life, especially that of the unborn, it is a reflection on the foolishness of ‘going with the flow’. Specifically agreeing with contraception and underage sexual activity because most parents these days agree with it. We will have it forced upon us to the extent that we allow it to happen and don’t start reversing the trends.

Reversing the trend? Isn’t that what we’re trying to do here? Even on a Catholic forum we get resistance.

I’ve been told as a Catholic, when everybody disagrees with you, you might be doing something right (or something like that)

 

[mapleoak]

I’ve been told as a Catholic, when everybody disagrees with you, you might be doing something right (or something like that)

Yes, something like that. In today’s world being Catholic or upholding moral standards certainly doesn’t make one popular with the crowd.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Yes, something like that. In today’s world being Catholic or upholding moral standards certainly doesn’t make one popular with the crowd.

Whew!..

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I see nothing in my post that denotes anger:shrug: What litigation? The only litigation that I know of supports my view point. When people are ignorant of NFP the first thing they speak of is being regular a sure give away. There was a method called rhythm that is very outdated. That relied on regularity. I know women who’s cycles are 17 to 56 days. They used NFP precisely because they were so irregular. It has been taught to the blind. As I have already stated it is the Church that states contraception is intrinsically evil. Because a majority of people have committed a sin does not make it not a sin.

The fact is people will sin. Our duty to God is to call each other to repent. The fact that people will continue to sin does not mean we should give up and say go ahead. That argument could have been used about the terrible injustice that was committed against African Americans. It would have been a terrible injustice if we would have given up just because the majority of people behave immoral way.

I’m quite sure there were attempts way back to stop the distribution of birth control. I’m sure that such laws were held unconstitutional. As to the information on NFP, great to hear. I didn’t know I picked the first thing people always argue…It just seemed reasonable to me. I’m post menopausal so its of no great concern to me anyway. I’m glad its easy to do, for those that want to do it.

Well I know how you feel.