Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary - over the top?!

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Even in the Bible, it says that Mary is the Mother of God, when in Luke, Elizabeth states: “Why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”

Mother of My Lord is the same as Mother of my God. Right?

👍
 
jabelltulsa said:
I have heard from many people from many denominations who just see Mary as a bystander and no one special. I think that most protestants still hold Mary in high esteem, though. Thankfully the Catholic Church has preserved the reverence for Mary (Hyperdulia); I fear that left to non-tradition based faiths, her importance would have been forgotten.
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Yes, extactly. Hyperdulia is given to Mary by the Catholic church which means a higher veneration or revering over all the Saints who were holy Christians in the body of Christ.
Dulia as you know (this is for those who don’t know but are reading it) is for the Saints which means veneration of revering of them as holy Christians in the body of Christ.
And Latria is for God alone which is worship alone and where we get words like IdoLATRY which is the worship of idols.
Non-Catholics don’t know but MarioLOGY is far far different from the grave sin of MarioLATRY which would be worship of Mary, which of course some heretical sects did in the fourth century called Collyridianism ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT
And of course the Catholic church condemned the practice of worship of Mary since it was and IS idolatry.
 
upbeatjonm said:
Even in the Bible, it says that Mary is the Mother of God, when in Luke, Elizabeth states: “Why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”

Mother of My Lord is the same as Mother of my God. Right?

👍
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Yes, Lord and God are used interchangably in the scriptures for the most part (John 20:28) "Thomas answered him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus isn’t just Lord but God too. And Mary isn’t just the mother of a nature (Jesus’ human nature) but the mother of a “person” as Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God, so that Mary is the theotokos which means “God bearer.” She bore God the Son, the second person of the most Holy Trinity. Shouldn’t she should be given credit for bearing and raising God?
 
Bishopite said:
get words like IdoLATRY which is the worship of idols.
Non-Catholics don’t know but MarioLOGY is far far different from the grave sin of MarioLATRY which would be worship of Mary
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Gooooood Stuff !!! I love etymology.

Thanks for this.
 
NonDenom said:
Hi Lilly
I don’t know if you meant to, but you kinda counerdicted yourself in the two bolded statements above. I do have a understanding of God’s capacities. I just simply ask a question that no one seems to be able to answer. My reasoning behind this question is to find out if Catholics believe that Mary as Gods mother was with God before she was with us here on earth.
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The best answer to your question comes from a Marian priest that I knew. As Catholics, we accept Mary as human, as a creation of God almighty. She was born in time as are all humans. Until the annunciation, Mary had no idea of the role she was to play in salvation history. Mary is not the mother of God, as in the Trinity. Mary is the mother of Jesus, the man, who is God.
It is Mary’s Fiat, her openness, to the Holy Spirit that allowed for the birth of Christ that would lead to our salvation. It is for this reason that we honor and revere Mary.
 
upbeatjonm said:
Even in the Bible, it says that Mary is the Mother of God, when in Luke, Elizabeth states: “Why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”

Mother of My Lord is the same as Mother of my God. Right?

👍
Click to expand...
Not in the sense that God has a mother. Rather she is the mother of the human part of Jesus.
 
Bishopite said:
Yes, extactly. Hyperdulia is given to Mary by the Catholic church which means a higher veneration or revering over all the Saints who were holy Christians in the body of Christ.
Dulia as you know (this is for those who don’t know but are reading it) is for the Saints which means veneration of revering of them as holy Christians in the body of Christ.
And Latria is for God alone which is worship alone and where we get words like IdoLATRY which is the worship of idols.
Non-Catholics don’t know but MarioLOGY is far far different from the grave sin of MarioLATRY which would be worship of Mary, which of course some heretical sects did in the fourth century called Collyridianism ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT
And of course the Catholic church condemned the practice of worship of Mary since it was and IS idolatry.
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How does the average catholic know the difference between dulia and hyerdulia in practice? What tells them the difference between the 2 and if they have improperly done hyperdulia?
 
jabelltulsa said:
I have heard from many people from many denominations who just see Mary as a bystander and no one special. I think that most protestants still hold Mary in high esteem, though. Thankfully the Catholic Church has preserved the reverence for Mary (Hyperdulia); I fear that left to non-tradition based faiths, her importance would have been forgotten.
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Would you happen to know in Scripture where Mary is given hyperdulia?
 
justasking4 said:
How does the average catholic know the difference between dulia and hyerdulia in practice? What tells them the difference between the 2 and if they have improperly done hyperdulia?
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i wondered about this when i was looking into how catholics worship God and honour mary…

for me you cannot physically see the difference between latria and hyperdulia and dulia… they are a matter of conscience for the person praying etc.

for one person honouring Mary may mean a small nod, for another it could be flat out… its what’s in their hearts that matters.

Different people also have different ways of praising God ranging from quiet respect to arms waving and jumping. equally the latter evangelical type cannot turn around and say: You quiet guys aren’t giving God due latria cos you’re just sitting there!

The right respect is a personal matter for youself and it can be very hard to see the actual differences in other people. This is where a lot of confusion came from for me.

S
 
Abira said:
Do you not think that Catholics are sometimes in danger of giving her too much praise?

I have come a long way on the subject, I’m learning to pray the rosary, and I can understand arguments for the Immaculate conception, even though I struggle to infer it from scripture… but when I see prayers such as the one above I feel that they go too far into dangerous territory.
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If you the study the scriptures on Mary you will not see the kinds of things the catholic church says about her. You are right in saying that this is dangerous territory. This is what happens when a church puts its “traditions” and dogmas on the same level as scripture. It is inevitable that this will result in going beyond what the inspired-inerrant Scriptures teach.
 
justasking4 said:
If you the study the scriptures on Mary you will not see the kinds of things the catholic church says about her. You are right in saying that this is dangerous territory. This is what happens when a church puts its “traditions” and dogmas on the same level as scripture. It is inevitable that this will result in going beyond what the inspired-inerrant Scriptures teach.
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this is the reason i struggle with ideas about mary’s assumption and also her crowing in heaven… there’s no explicit scriptural basis for them… that’s another thread though and something i’m gona have to work through slowly since no answers have kinda grabbed me.

S
 
Abira said:
this is the reason i struggle with ideas about mary’s assumption and also her crowing in heaven… there’s no explicit scriptural basis for them… that’s another thread though and something i’m gona have to work through slowly since no answers have kinda grabbed me.

S
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First off, I recommend you find a good apologestics book, or read encyclicals that explain the Churchs stance on Mary: perhaps “Hail Holy Queen” Scott Hahn.

Secondly, justas…you are stating this based on the assumption that the Scripture is the full composite of the faith. As Catholics, we believe that written tradition AND oral tradition are of necessity. I recommend “Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic” by David Currie, which will state the Catholic stance more clearly than can I in a short post…let me assure you, I am only trying to shed light on/explain the basis/argument behind the Catholic teaching of authority, and thereby Mary.

God bless!
 
KnightforChrist;2495724]Please quote one Catholic prayer where it is recited that glory is given to Mary, only one, that will suffice ???
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How about this hymn to Mary–
Immaculate Mary

Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing;
You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!

In heaven, the blessed your glory proclaim;
On earth we, your children, invoke your sweet name.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!

We pray for the Church, our true Mother on earth,
And beg you to watch o’er the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
could there possibly be another obstacle “at work” here blocking the obvious from being seen ???
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Yes. The truth. What is the truth about Mary? Do the Scriptures present her the same as the catholic church?
 
kquinn said:
First off, I recommend you find a good apologestics book, or read encyclicals that explain the Churchs stance on Mary: perhaps “Hail Holy Queen” Scott Hahn.

Secondly, justas…you are stating this based on the assumption that the Scripture is the full composite of the faith. As Catholics, we believe that written tradition AND oral tradition are of necessity. I recommend “Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic” by David Currie, which will state the Catholic stance more clearly than can I in a short post…let me assure you, I am only trying to shed light on/explain the basis/argument behind the Catholic teaching of authority, and thereby Mary.

God bless!
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lol thanks kquinn, I’m already wading through Mary: an evangelical catholic debate, which is really informative about both sides of the debate, some things just stick in your throat longer than other things as an Anglican. 🙂

S
 
justasking4 said:
Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing;
You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
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I would fine it hard to say that she reigned over anything too, I can’t really explain it to Catholics why it’s so hard to say these things - it just feels wrong.
 
justasking4 said:
How does the average catholic know the difference between dulia and hyerdulia in practice? What tells them the difference between the 2 and if they have improperly done hyperdulia?
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They know. Because it’s really NOT what you DO per se that makes dulia different from hyperdulia or latria - most everything is and can be done in contexts entirely separate from worship. It’s your view of whom you’re addressing yourself to that makes the difference.

If you believe Mary is divine or a goddess or the ‘goddess’, or more important than Christ or the Trinity, then even if you never do or say anything indicating such, you’ve crossed the line over into latria and sin.

On the other hand I can say such things without believing them - in which case I sin by causing scandal to others and risking corruption of their faith, by lying about my beliefs and so on. Very serious sins indeed. But I don’t commit idolatry by saying things I don’t believe.

And what is it to believe Mary is divine, I can hear you ask? Again, humans and angels and other creatures all share partially at times in many different qualities of the Godhead - and that includes things like creative power, saving power, the ability to transcend space and time - angels certainly do, so does anyone who flies across the international date line I can tell you :whacky:

God is the summation and supreme embodiment, as well as the source, of all these qualities. So if I were to believe that Mary’s abilities stem from herself alone rather than being graciously gifted to her by God whose mother she is (in His second person at least) I’d be wrong. If I were to believe that she possesses them to a greater degree than the Trinity itself, again I’d be wrong.

Hope this helps
 
justasking4 said:
How about this hymn to Mary–
Immaculate Mary

Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing;
You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!

In heaven, the blessed your glory proclaim;
On earth we, your children, invoke your sweet name.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
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The hymn you quoted **does not **indicate at all giving “glory” in the form of WORSHIP.

The blessed in heaven (in this hymn, please note) are proclaiming the glory that Mary has undergone by being taken into heaven body and soul…As most have heard of, our “glorified bodies” which we look forward to their re-unification with our souls at the end of time.

Mary got to share in this glory, her body was preserved from the corruption of death/sin.

The hymnal does not imply anything wrong at all when looked at in the proper context.

But, since this hymn is not church teaching or dogma, the following is just but an example of what you should be referring to.

Please note the following:

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF
POPE PIUS XII

MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS

DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

November 1, 1950

(The following comes out of paragraph 20 of this document:)

“They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ-truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.”

(Glorification after her son’s example meaning her body and soul were glorified through Christ, and preserved from the corruption of death/sin)

So, as already outlined by the church’s teaching authority and not the “hymnal” authority, **it’s definitley not worship of Mary **that is being talked about…or the purpose when sung in hymns…
 
Abira said:
Hi all,

every time I almost get over my doubts about Maryology something like this pushes me back down… I understand terms such as co-redemptrix and mediatrix etc even though I think they are misleading… but this in particular scares me - it’s no term in particular I disagree with…it’s the sheer volume of lines dedicated to Mary! What’s with it…why not focus on God and give her respect as a side note… The focus on her is a little OTT!
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If many “nice and kind words” about a singularly great and holy person “bothers” you, you might ask yourself why praise for the worthy is a bad thing.

Since that IS the “Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary”, as opposed to some other person, doesn’t it seem sensible that a “litany” of “praises” would have her as the subject, rather than someone else?
Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven,
Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
Have mercy on us.
God the Holy Ghost,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins,
pray for us.
Mother of Christ,
pray for us.
Mother of divine grace,
pray for us.
Mother most pure,
pray for us.
Mother most chaste,
pray for us.
Mother inviolate,
pray for us.
Mother undefiled,
pray for us.
Mother most amiable,
pray for us.
Mother most admirable,
pray for us.
Mother of good counsel,
pray for us.
Mother of our Creator,
pray for us.
Mother of our Savior,
pray for us.
Virgin most prudent,
pray for us.
Virgin most venerable,
pray for us.
Virgin most renowned,
pray for us.
Virgin most powerful,
pray for us.
Virgin most merciful,
pray for us.
Virgin most faithful,
pray for us.
Mirror of justice,
pray for us.
Seat of wisdom,
pray for us.
Cause of our joy,
pray for us.
Spiritual vessel,
pray for us.
Vessel of honor,
pray for us.
Singular vessel of devotion,
pray for us.
Mystical rose,
pray for us.
Tower of David,
pray for us.
Tower of ivory,
pray for us.
House of gold,
pray for us.
Ark of the Covenant,
pray for us.
Gate of Heaven,
pray for us.
Morning star,
pray for us.
Health of the sick,
pray for us.
Refuge of sinners,
pray for us.
Comforter of the afflicted,
pray for us.
Help of Christians,
pray for us.
Queen of angels,
pray for us.
Queen of patriarchs,
pray for us.
Queen of prophets,
pray for us.
Queen of apostles,
pray for us.
Queen of martyrs,
pray for us.
Queen of confessors,
pray for us.
Queen of virgins,
pray for us.
Queen of all saints,
pray for us.
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
pray for us.
Queen assumed into Heaven,
pray for us.
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
pray for us.
Queen of peace,
pray for us.

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Have mercy on us.
what can you say to that to reassure me that Marian devotion isn’t bordering on blaspheme here?
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Is Mother Mary being substituted for God in any of the above, in any way?

If not, where’s the “blasphemy”…?
To me it sounds like latria as opposed to hyperdulia…does it not encourage Catholics to infringe upon glory that should only be given to God and not Mary?
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It doesn’t encourage me, personally, to give anything due to God to Mary. It simply encourages me to give as much as is due to Mary to Mary.
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, that we Thy Servants may enjoy perpetual health of mind and body and by the glorious intercession of the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, be delivered from present sorrow and unjoy enternal happiness. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
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Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
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