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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I love it! For some reason, you just made me extraordinarily cheerful!
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netmilsmom
Guest
When my daughters and I have our audience with the new Pope, I WILL use an ATM, cause that is the kickiest thing I have ever read!!!
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netmilsmom
Guest
The idea of teaching Latin to my daughters came from a MI charter school that my older daughter attended. They started in 1st grade.
Teaching Latin is a big thing with homeschoolers, including myself. We teach it for the Root words, as I said.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I could be wrong but the people who told me this are ones that I trust.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
That is for the Latin Catholic Church, our Byzantine Churches should teach their languages.
When you do so please let me know if what I said is really true as this is what I have been told by people who have been to the Vatican.
I could be wrong but the people who told me this are ones that I trust.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
This is great. We need more of this and not just with homeschoolers. Our Dioceses should work something out to either teach or assist parents who want to teach Latin to their children.
That is for the Latin Catholic Church, our Byzantine Churches should teach their languages.
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netmilsmom
Guest
The audience is a long shot, but anything is possible with God! My Uncle is a retired Bishop. He is coming to my daughter’s First Communion and being a child with no limit to her dreams, she is going to ask him if we can tag along when he next goes to Rome. I told her that if he says yes, we will mortgage the house to get there!
I just had a friend at our Polish Dance class ask why I would possibly teach my kids Latin. When I told her, another mom who is a doctor agreed fully and stated that if she had taken Latin instead of French in college, her life would have been easier.
I don’t expect them to be conversational, but again, who knows!
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tuopaolo
Guest
Well it assumes its sacred character when it is used in prayer, not when used at an ATM.
It’s not primarily something inherent about the language itself but rather how it is used in the society of the Church. Even apart from metaphysical considerations and just considering psychological ones, if a particular language is used abundantly in prayer OR if prayer is said abundantly in a particular language, then that language causes what is called “association”, namely a psychological association with the sacred and thus produces the effect I mentioned of facilitating a raising of the mind and heart to God and the things of heaven.
In addition to the psychological analysis, metaphysically, the language will assume an objective sacred character when used for sacred purposes, even though this objective character is not inherent in the language itself.
As for any sacred qualities inherent in the language itself, I am not an expert and it would be difficult to separate the inherent from merely the associated, but it does seem to me that Latin is inherently more attuned to the holy than is some other languages. Languages can have inherent qualities related to the world that they describe. Instead of languages, let’s for simplicity’s sake just consider words as an example. Onomatopoetic words are imbued, by definition, with inherent qualities related to the world that they describe.
No I am not aware of that since I am quite certain that Jesus, omnipotent as He was in His divinity, was able to speak Latin. Even if He didn’t know Latin in his humanity; He could have still spoken it at any time by drawing from His divinity. As for Mary and the Apostles, I don’t know whether they spoke Latin or not.
Well even so, that was then and this is now.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Yes, but Tuopaolo, couldn’t that argument be used to support the idea that the Mass in the vernacular is a desireable thing? More people are able to understand it, etc? I’m all for a generous application of the Indult, I would hate to see a devotional that I treasured abrogated, let alone the form of the Mass itself. It seems to me, however, that there are “rad trads” (for want of a better term) who will not be happy until the Mass everywhere is again celebrated in Latin, according to the pre-Council rubrics.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I agree with you.
I see no reason to limit the TLM but there are people who would not be happy if this were exclusive. Including me.
Let them have their TLM but require that everywhere there is a TLM, there is also a mass in the vernacular. If they did this, they would stop seperating us but rather bring us together.
In my home parish in Cleveland, our 9:30 was for the more conservative of us and the 10:30 was the Choir Mass where it was anything goes.
Everyone was happy.
I’m not sure if this would work everywhere but it sure worked where I was.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
This goes for every language. When used in prayer they all have a sacred character. No one language is more sacred than another.
But again, I do not want you to get me wrong here.
I have attended the Indult Mass and I will do so again.
I am all for a more generous application of the Indult but not to the detriment of the vernacular Mass. I am also for the use of more Latin in the current Mass, but again, not to the total exclusion of the vernacular.
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tuopaolo
Guest
No. I maybe phrased it unclearly. Latin because it is the language of prayer always has a sacred character but this sacred character is realized (made present) when the language is used in prayer. This is not true of some other languages. For example English is not the language of public prayer in any rite of the Church so it never has this kind of sacred character.
This sounds relativistic and it also ignores the fact that designating a language for sacred use gives to it an objective sacred character even if it is not inherently more sacred than other languages.
This isn’t about the “Indult” versus the “vernacular Mass” as the “Novus Ordo” is normatively to be said in Latin. So the “Novus Ordo” should not be called “the vernacular Mass.”
I’m not for the total exclusion of the vernacular either. But some people want to exclude Latin. Someone in this thread for example said that he/she wanted there to be a Mass that excludes Latin for every Mass that doesn’t and is in Latin.
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netmilsmom
Guest
That was me. This is the quote…
" In my opinion, the rule I would suggest is that if a church has an innovative Mass then it must also offer a conservative one, with a provision that Mass attendance could eliminate either one. If the 9:00 Mass is an EWTN type mass and the 11:00 is a revival Mass, the congregation could choose which it likes. Not the liturgical committee. "
An EWTN Holy Mass has the Latin.
I was stating that if a church wants to have a Modernist’s Mass they should be required to have a conservative Holy Mass as well.
Not that I wanted to do away with the Latin but rather to require it.
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tuopaolo
Guest
Sorry, net, for misunderstanding you.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Oh no problem, friend!
I just wanted you to know that I’m on your side with this!
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
It really shouldn’t be called the “Novus Ordo” either.
But I mistyped. I meant to say (type), “detriment of the vernacular in the Mass”
I feel very safe to say that we are very close on this matter if not truly at in the same place on it.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
So let’s sum up: If I’m not mistaken, Netmil(name removed by moderator), Tuopaulo, Byzcath, possibly others, and I are on the same page: Lavish application of the Indult, and a Mass of Paul VI that is policed for abuses. I bet Pope Benedict would agree and so the only people we need to get on board are…the American bishops. 
Nice idea while it lasted.
Nice idea while it lasted.
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RSiscoe
Guest
Sean O L:
I did not know you were that age or I would have spoken to you much more respectfully.
To make up for anything I may have said, that I now regret, I will be praying my rosary for you for the next week.
God Bless,
SeanOL,
I did not know you were that age or I would have spoken to you much more respectfully.
To make up for anything I may have said, that I now regret, I will be praying my rosary for you for the next week.
God Bless,
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pnewton
Guest
I can get on board that train, too, if by lavish you mean plentiful enough so that those that desire it have it readily available.
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otm
Guest
Last time I checked, English was the language used in the Roman rite in the English speaking part of the world, and it was also in use at least in the Maronite and Byzantine rites in America. Perhaps you are trtying to say something, but I don’t think what you said was correct.
Perhaps you can try again? Or are you trying to say that English is not a universal norm?
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tuopaolo
Guest
Well the official language of the Roman rite is Latin – this is universal and in all parts of the world. So even in places where Latin is not being used, Latin still remains the official language of the Roman rite.
What I was trying to say was that English is not in any special way associated with public prayer whereas Latin – in all countries – is. If a language is in some special way (i.e. in a way in distinction from other languages) associated with public prayer, that language assumes an objective sacred character and this sacred character is realized (made present) whenever prayer is said in the sacred language.
Maybe the third attempt will be the charm
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otm
Guest
OK, now for the next question. You are talking about the Roman rite; what about languages and the other 21 or 22 rites of the Catholic Church?Well the official language of the Roman rite is Latin – this is universal and in all parts of the world. So even in places where Latin is not being used, Latin still remains the official language of the Roman rite.
What I was trying to say was that English is not in any special way associated with public prayer whereas Latin – in all countries – is. If a language is in some special way (i.e. in a way in distinction from other languages) associated with public prayer, that language assumes an objective sacred character and this sacred character is realized (made present) whenever prayer is said in the sacred language.
Maybe the third attempt will be the charm
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