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tuopaolo
Guest
Languages which are especially associated with a particular rite assume a sacred character within the context of that rite or the people who avail themselves to it.
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BillyT92679
Guest
There is a great thread here on the 1965 Roman Missal. To me, if we had kept this missal, and did not have the radical iconoclasm of EACW then I think there might not be the schism with the SSPX, or at least their adherents would be much smaller. Take a look at that thread and read the text of the 65 Missale Romanum. If we can have a Mass similar to that version, I think the Latin Church would be in great shape.
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Illini
Guest
Under Benedict XVI, the trend toward more reverent celebrations of the Mass, with fewer liturgical abuses, will continue. I think this trend would go on even without Benedict, but his presence strengthens it!
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ames61
Guest
I’d be happy to see the Novus Ordo done as called for in the GIRM. Actually, I have seen it, but not in my home diocese.
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otm
Guest
That makes for a rather interesting Christology, as it makes his humanity into some sort of super-human who goes around slipping and sliding into and out of his divinity at will whenever the need arises. And that seems to border on the “Wow look what I can do” type of magic I don’t associatie with the Christ of the Gospels.
A close reading of the Gospels, coupled with a minor smattering of history would show that Rome was the occupier of the territory, and the Jews flet towards Rome as many Palestinians do now of the Jeish state. The Romans were the conquerors and the oppressors, instaling their own government, laws and taxation. I have little doubt that Christ grew up knowing at least some latin, if perhaps no more than the local patois, but his native language was Aramaic, and as a good and well educated Jew, he read Hebrew.
The mystery of the Incarnation will always be a challenge in terms of understanding. Let’s not cheapen it.
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tuopaolo
Guest
Jesus Christ is not two persons, one human and one divine; He is one divine person with both a divine nature and a human nature. He is a single divine person. He is not a human person. As the Catechism states, his humanity and human soul do not constitute a personal subject.
Yes let’s not cheapen it with Christological heresies.
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ybeayf
Guest
Greek actually would have been the foundation of the local patois, not Latin.
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otm
Guest
You just did. Christ is not a human person? Where did you get that gem from? He was born of the Virign Mary, he most certainly is human. I am well aware that he has two natures. The one is human and the other divine.
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otm
Guest
I was refering to the local patois of Latin, spoken in large part by the military; not a group noted to be educated in the classics of Ciciero. The Latin used in Israel would have been related to the military and to commerce; Greek would have been prevalent also as they had been conquered previously by the Greeks, and while Rome was ascendant, the Greeks hadn’t exactly been dismissed.
So Christ was in a society which sat right on a trade route to Egypt, both from the North and the East, and would have most likely been familiar with the language of the conquerors.
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tuopaolo
Guest
To say that Christ is a human person is heresy.
The US Catholic Bishops’ Office for the Catechism has a catechetical quiz where one of the questions is:
usccb.org/catechism/quizzes/jcs.htm
“True or false. Jesus is a human person.”
And the correct answer is:
usccb.org/catechism/quizzes/jcs9.htm
"False. Para. 466: The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God’s Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council at Ephesus in 431 confessed “that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man” (Council of Ephesus [431]: DS 250). Christ’s humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. . . .
“Para. 468: After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ’s human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council at Constantinople in 553 confessed that “there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity” (Council of Constantinople II [553]: DS 424).”
Hopefuly now that you now that it is a heresy to say that Jesus is a human person, you will reform yourself and conform yourself to this infallible teaching of the Church.
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pnewton
Guest
Initially, otm questioned a Christology where Jesus could have, in His divine nature, known Latin, While the terminology of two persons was incorrect, he was right to question that Jesus drew on the omniscience of His divine nature to do things He could not have done in His human nature. I cite the CCC, section 472:
This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”
Jesus, according to Ephesians 2, emptied Himself to take on His humanity. If he emptied Himself, there must be something that He had before the incarnation that He did not have after. This does not in anyway detract from His deity.
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Leeta
Guest
Folks,
It is essential to have the Mass partly or mostly in Latin and that it be the universal language of the Church. Latin is of itself not so special, but it does preserve the Truth because it isn’t a vernacular language now, and ,thus ,does not change. Latin does have some definite advantages for preserving the truth for posterity. The inflections are very helpful for that. It is also very concise and it has no articles, so Latin students can rejoice in that!
One of the reasons I read for the need for a new English translation of the Mass is because our language has changed in the 30 or 40 years of use in the liturgy. Now how are the truths of our faith going to be preserved accurately so that a 1000 years from now, people can sing and pray the unchanging parts of the Mass and understand them? If I attended a Mass a 1000 years ago in Old English, I would have no clue what they would be saying. But knowing the Latin Mass, I would be able to understand the Mass of 1000 years ago. The truths of our faith, like the creed, won’t be, if translations of the 1000s of vernacular-only Masses have to be retranslated every 30 years! We already see how tares were sown in the first English language Mass translation. “we” instead of “I”, “sin” instead of “sins”. The English translation of the Gospels and Bible readings has big-time tares sown amongst them.
With repetition, language is acquired. From my personal experience of learning another language fluently, I can vouch for the fact that repetion is the start and the end of it. What better way to learn another language than through the repetition of the unchanging parts of the Mass? That is how I learned it. My school Latin of one year had been forgotten.
The old Mass which I attended, always had a vernacular reading for the people. The Latin, which preserves the Truth the best, is proclaimed for the honor and glory of God. The Mass is not meant to be a catechesis hour. Catechesis must take place outside of it for the people. The Mass is about worshiping God and not about us.
Americans don’t seem to understand that acquisition of other languages takes some work, just like learning math, but one can still have a basic understanding of math, without ever necessarily attaining a doctorate in it . The same goes for language. Fluency may be impossible for most , but a basic understanding can be had of it . It is not necessary to be fluent in Latin in order to worship God in the Old Rite.
Pope Benedict’s Latin is very clear and easy to understand because German was heavily influenced by Latin. The pronunciation is also nearly the same in both. It was wonderful to hear his responses and homily in Latin.
It is essential to have the Mass partly or mostly in Latin and that it be the universal language of the Church. Latin is of itself not so special, but it does preserve the Truth because it isn’t a vernacular language now, and ,thus ,does not change. Latin does have some definite advantages for preserving the truth for posterity. The inflections are very helpful for that. It is also very concise and it has no articles, so Latin students can rejoice in that!
One of the reasons I read for the need for a new English translation of the Mass is because our language has changed in the 30 or 40 years of use in the liturgy. Now how are the truths of our faith going to be preserved accurately so that a 1000 years from now, people can sing and pray the unchanging parts of the Mass and understand them? If I attended a Mass a 1000 years ago in Old English, I would have no clue what they would be saying. But knowing the Latin Mass, I would be able to understand the Mass of 1000 years ago. The truths of our faith, like the creed, won’t be, if translations of the 1000s of vernacular-only Masses have to be retranslated every 30 years! We already see how tares were sown in the first English language Mass translation. “we” instead of “I”, “sin” instead of “sins”. The English translation of the Gospels and Bible readings has big-time tares sown amongst them.
With repetition, language is acquired. From my personal experience of learning another language fluently, I can vouch for the fact that repetion is the start and the end of it. What better way to learn another language than through the repetition of the unchanging parts of the Mass? That is how I learned it. My school Latin of one year had been forgotten.
The old Mass which I attended, always had a vernacular reading for the people. The Latin, which preserves the Truth the best, is proclaimed for the honor and glory of God. The Mass is not meant to be a catechesis hour. Catechesis must take place outside of it for the people. The Mass is about worshiping God and not about us.
Americans don’t seem to understand that acquisition of other languages takes some work, just like learning math, but one can still have a basic understanding of math, without ever necessarily attaining a doctorate in it . The same goes for language. Fluency may be impossible for most , but a basic understanding can be had of it . It is not necessary to be fluent in Latin in order to worship God in the Old Rite.
Pope Benedict’s Latin is very clear and easy to understand because German was heavily influenced by Latin. The pronunciation is also nearly the same in both. It was wonderful to hear his responses and homily in Latin.
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tuopaolo
Guest
No that is also a heresy infallibly condemned by the Church. God the Son’s divine nature did not undergo any change whatsoever with the Incarnation. To say otherwise is a very grave heresy.
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pnewton
Guest
No it is not, lest St. Paul (and the Catechism) is also heretical for saying that Christ emptied himself. I did not deny that Jesus is fully divine in his nature, but he did, in some sense empty himself. And, as I pointed out, his knowledge was not unlimited (that is one thing that changed), unless you also reject the CCC along with St. Paul. He also was not omnipresent while on earth.
Let me also suggest that your understanding of heresy is flawed and unduly judgemental. You said, “To say otherwise is a very grave heresy.” No it is not. Heresy is an **obsitnate **post-baptismal denial. Saying something out of lack of understanding or in attempt to understand is not heresy. Otm, myself and most others here have much to learn about the faith. We do not need to be labeled with heresy.
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otm
Guest
Oh, he can call me a heretic if he wishes. I just consider the source.
I was responding too fast in the posts to catch the play on human person. Christ was both Human and Divine, of that I have never doubted.I thought that the statement was being made that Christ was not human. Apparently that was not where he was going.
Kind of interesting how far we have strayed off the topic.
John Paul took a very different approach to the office he held than many of his predecessors. It will be interesting to see how Benedict 16 approaches the office and how he “uses” it. Many are expecting him to take his prior office with him. However, given a world with about 1,100,000,000 Catholics, I doubt he will do much micro managing. The greater question might be hox much he manages the Curia; JP2 came from the outside and didn’t do much in management; B16 is from the inside. It should be interesting.
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tuopaolo
Guest
He did in some sense empty Himself but to say this involved any kind of change in His divine nature is outright heretical and a very serious heresy at that.
His knowledge in his human nature was not unlimited. His knowledge in his divine nature did not change at all and thus remained unlimited.
It was not a change of any kind in the divine nature.
I like to call a spade a spade.
The expressed belief remains objectively, materially a heresy, whether the person who expresses is culpable, formally, for the sin of heresy or not. So for instance if an 8 year old makes a mistake and says that Jesus is not God then while the 8 year old may not be culpable for the sin of heresy, the belief that Jesus is not God remains a heretical belief and in that objective sense a heresy. I apologize however for not being clear and any emotional offense I caused you.
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Subrosa
Guest
SO, I’ve been reading much of this thread and have come to wonder - With all the discourse about the Latin Mass not being celebrated, what are these then?
members.cox.net/holynamechurch/ (Near my home)
latinmass.org/directory.html
These places are under the auspices of Rome and are completely legal.
I don’t get it!
Subrosa
members.cox.net/holynamechurch/ (Near my home)
latinmass.org/directory.html
These places are under the auspices of Rome and are completely legal.
I don’t get it!
Subrosa
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netmilsmom
Guest
Not all Diocese have been allowed to have a TLM. Here in Detroit it has only been a year, with only ONE church allowed to celebrate.
Also, look at the Latin Mass website. You will see most of these masses in downtown parishes. Not real convenient to most people.
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Ignatius
Guest
I’m sure that the Holy Father will approve whatever the Sui Juris Church Authorities decide. But I don’t know why thay would and wouldn’t expect that they will be making any changes.
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Subrosa
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Do you suppose the excommunication may be lifted? After all, isn’t this what they are trying to do anyway?
Subrosa
So how will this effect the church’s excommunication of the Lefebvreists, the Society of Saint Pius X?
Do you suppose the excommunication may be lifted? After all, isn’t this what they are trying to do anyway?
Subrosa
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