Living with a Jehovah witness

[jcrichton]

The division that God wants is not due to material things (how the world works):

17:14 I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. 17:15 I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the evil one. 17:16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 17:17 Consecrate them in the truth; your word is truth. 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world, 17:19 and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth. 17:20 I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. 17:21 May they all be one. Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. (St. John)

Here’s the Holy Division:

10:34 ‘Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 10:36 A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. (St. Matthew)
12:30 ‘He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. (St. Matthew)
6:14 Do not harness yourselves in an uneven team with unbelievers. Virtue is no companion for crime. Light and darkness have nothing in common. 6:15 Christ is not the ally of Beliar, nor has a believer anything to share with an unbeliever. (2 Corinthians)

Sadly, you are in caught in that Holy War; coincidentally, what the Jehovah Witnesses fail to accept is that Jesus Founded Church has been edifying the world from her Inception… nations would go to war for trivial things, people were worked till they dropped dead (including children and senior citizens), this was the way of the world (it is still the way of the world where Christ is shun–we can see this everyday in the news). Christ’s Promise of the Kingdom of God is not for man to cease to function on this world but to function in a higher level:

20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (St. Matthew 5)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[6857g]

Thank you jcrichton,
All this is very helpful it’s so sad that they see everyone non-JW as bad/evil when all over the world from all kinds of religion from all kinds of economic statuses from all ethnic background there are so many wonderful people that love and care for others as God intended us to. I wish he would see that instead of seeing just the bad/mistakes of each person he encounters. That’s no way to live.
Something he keeps nagging at me about is holidays and birthdays how they are so pagan and God disapproves as it is stated on the Bible. As Halloween is right around the corner he started to mention this, I personally didn’t see anything wrong with it, to me it was I got to be anything I wanted and make people laugh with what I had chosen to dress as but never quite understood the whole idea of it. Can you guys help me out here.

 

[Jestersage]

As Halloween is right around the corner he started to mention this, I personally didn’t see anything wrong with it,

Not a good example due to how tainted it is. Try[strike]Remembrance Day.[/strike] Sorry, Veterans Day – Remembrance Day is Canadian name for it.

 

[6857g]

Hi Jestersage,
I understand that and I personally am not attached to that holiday. Tell me more about remembrance day

 

[garegin_asatrya]

Interestingly enough, the version that they support is the version which anti-Christian Jews claim as their “correct” version; so they side against the Church Christ Founded in favor of anti-Christians (go figure).

The Vulgate uses the Masoretic line of text too. In places where they disagree, the Protestant Bibles sometimes choose the Septuagint version. It would be wrong to say that Protestants deliberately choose to use a anti-Christian line of text.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

I am glad to be in your corner (I know some of my posting is raw and demanding–I hope you understand that my effort is to shock you into continuing in the Faith and seeking the Truth–consider my effort as that lifeline to a person neck-deep in water… it has to be stern, flexible but unyielding, for the rescue to succeed).

…again, flawed teachings… there’s nowhere in Scriptures that speaks against celebration of any festivities (nor about ‘the evils of gambling’); the lack of information on the lives of Jesus, His Apostles, and the early Church is not due to God’s Commands to refrain from doing so (if this were to be true than that would mean that Jesus [and everyone else] could not tell how old He was, never took a shower, never used the bathroom, never chew-the-cud (had conversations outside of Proclaiming the Good New), never yawned, used drugs (there’s a mention of medic/doctor but no mention of what was used–instruments prescriptions)… and, if we follow their logic, one must believe that Jesus and the Apostles (and all of the people around them) must have eaten only fish, bread, grain, and olives and only drank wine.

The reason why things are mentioned in Scriptures (the wedding at Cana and Herod’s party…) is this:

20:31 These are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing this you may have life through his name. (St. John)

So trivial things do not matter since they are not conductive to the Salvation Narrative. Yet, it does not mean that things did not take place or that God forbade them:

20:30 There were many other signs that Jesus worked and the disciples saw, but they are not recorded in this book. (St. John)

You see?.. not even all of the things that Jesus said or did were Written–these were left as part of the Oral Teachings!

…just look at this example:

17:24 When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the half shekel came to Peter and said, ‘Does your master not pay the half-shekel?’ 17:25 ‘Oh yes’ he replied, and went into the house. But before he could speak, Jesus said, ‘Simon, what is your opinion? From whom do the kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their sons or from foreigners?’ 17:26 And when he replied, ‘From foreigners’, Jesus said, ‘Well then, the sons are exempt. 17:27 However, so as not to offend these people, go to the lake and cast a hook; take the first fish that bites, open its mouth and there you will find a shekel; take it and give it to them for me and for you.’ (St. Matthew)

This passage seems almost inconsequential… but there are chunks of Teachings in it:

• Jesus Claims Sonship.
  Jesus demonstrated that He was Isaiah’s Suffering Servant.
• Jesus procured the tax fee through a supernatural way.
• Jesus paid His and Cephas’s, the rock upon which He Built His Church.
• Cephas was fully obedient to Jesus.

There are things that we cannot know because there’s no mention in Scriptures; yet, it is because only pertinent matters to the Salvific Plan was Taught through the Oral and Written Teachings of the Apostles.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Halloween is said to have originated as all witches hollow–a celebration of the occult. This, as many other festivities, were introduced to N. America by marketing savvy people (as greeting cards and the cooping of Valentine and Nicholas) to promote sales… it has been indoctrinated as the greatest festival celebration by those who both reject God and the Church and seek to line their pockets; the greatest problem is the celebration of evil as a good thing–monsters, witches, ghosts, murderers, and all sort’s of wickedness is placed on a pedestal… that which enslaves us, rules us!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

I stand corrected, partially.

Most Protestant will deny that there is such connection; rather, they will offer that their version of the Bible is the one correct and that the Catholic added books to the correct Bible.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…by that logic, we should just chuck the New Testament out; do you forget the Revelation that it is the Holy Spirit that inspires man?

…reason and ignorance tends to cause those misunderstanding and contortions of interpretational theologies… do you truly believe that when Rome occupied Israel, Rome would allow Israel citizens to join their governing body?

Do you ignore the change in world affairs as the Church, Founded by Christ, and lead by the Holy Spirit, became instrumental in curbing man’s practices?

…or do you truly believe that if left alone to his own “devices” man’s goodness will flourish making the world a better place?

Christ, through His Church intercedes to amend the world.

War is a fact of man’s existence; the same religious group that you purport to support God’s true exploit its members, as attested by the story of terror and impotence on this and other instances, and they also do it in the name of God–where is that in Scriptures, and that teaching that you believe Comes from God that his Servants must refrain from engaging the world–unless it furthers their agenda?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Clearly that is a wrong interpretation of Scriptures.

Yet, could you explain how the Roe vs. Wade is founded on anything but lies?

Further, if all the justices hold that slavery should be brought back (though it is practiced around the world by “Muslims” and others), would you then say it is constitutional because there was a consensus?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…ah, nope… take it back a notch!

This is the Coming of the Messiah not the Parousia:

It is he who is coming on the clouds; everyone will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the races of the earth will mourn over him. This is the truth. Amen.(Apocalypse [Revelation])

When the Messiah was first Revealed to the world this happened:

2:1 Now at this time Caesar Augustus issued a decree for a census of the whole world to be taken. 2:2 This census – the first – took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria, 2:3 and everyone went to his own town to be registered. 2:4 So Joseph set out from the town of Nazareth in Galilee and travelled up to Judaea, to the town of David called Bethlehem, since he was of David’s House and line, 2:5 in order to be registered together with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. 2:6 While they were there the time came for her have her child, 2:7 and she birth to a son, her first born. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them at the inn. 2:8 In the countryside close by there were shepherds who lived in the fields and took it in turns to watch their flocks during the night. 2:9 The angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone round them. They were terrified, 2:10 but the angel said, ‘Do not be afraid. Listen, I bring you news of great joy, a joy to be shared by the whole people. 2:11 Today in the town of David a saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. (St. Luke)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You argue well but not in depth.

Outside the Church there’s no Salvation. (done deal)

Anyone who by nature obeys Yahweh God, the Holy Spirit can and does intercede on their behalf–how this works it is on God.

Those of you who reject God and believe there’s nothing after death–hey, more power to you; but, you cannot claim Salvation because it is not fair that hell exists.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wow, our definition of Life is truly different.

I am sorry that you suffered on the hands of bullies… I expect that you do not have/plan to have children, correct?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is part of Faith.

People are quick to judge: “going to hell” or “saved.”

Yet we don’t know what will transpired in the next few minutes, let alone weeks or years from now.

People as your parents and grandparents have have tough experiences removed them from the Path; yet, it is not for me to judge when, how or if the Holy Spirit will re-merge them to the Body of Christ. In the past the Church was made her Declarations, yet, as with Scriptures and Doctrine, they are still being unfolded… the one thing to take into consideration is that the Church does not pronounces anyone in hell; rather, she Teaches and reprimands so that people may avoid damnation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[garegin_asatrya]

Which connection? Pre-modern Protestants Bibles unquestionably use the Masoretic text which was literally borrowed from the text that Jews were using at the time. Catholics, until the modern era (mostly) have used the same Jewish text, not the Septuagint. In reality it’s a mix. In some areas, the KJV uses Masoretic readings and others uses the Septuagint. Pre-modern Protestant Bibles did not omit the Deutrocanonial Books. This was done in the 1800s in the US.

 

[Crusader13]

You’re correct in that the Watchtower isn’t the only church that discourages participation in government. In fact many non-Christians also share this view and choose to adopt a cynical “well my vote doesn’t count and my voice is never heard” approach to politics. I personally don’t think Paul was trying to tell people that they are beholden to whatever regime or dictatorship they happen to be born into, simply because they are citizens of that country. This would lead to countless numbers of Christians being forbidden to leave their country of origin simply because they view it as God’s will for them to be stuck in one place, serving one ruler or leader regardless of what persecution or harm may come their way.

The issue I have with the multiple interpretation approach is that eventually you run into conflicting views of Scripture. If someone chooses to believe that the story of Jonah in the belly of the whale is merely allegory and meant to convey a deeper meaning and didn’t actually occur, this is okay. Likewise, if someone believes that it did occur and Jonah survived in the belly of a large whale or other fish for 3 days, this is also acceptable and these two views don’t contradict one another. However, you can’t take a similar approach on an issue such as baptism and accept two opposing interpretations. Either baptism is needed to enter heaven or it is not, it can’t be both.

The Watchtower’s teachings start becoming problematic because now you have their governing body telling its members that participation in government, voting, military service, standing for the pledge of allegiance etc. etc., is not only discouraged, but it’s unbiblical. Biblical truths revealed by God through Scripture must be universal in their application to the faithful. You can’t have people picking and choosing what they want to believe simply because one teaching if more expedient than another for their lifestyle. This is why we have the thousands of competing denominations that we have today.

Personally I view the Watchtower’s teachings on government as more of an effort to distance themselves from the rest of orthodox Christianity and less on biblical teachings. I don’t view it as inherently bad and it’s not an issue that I focus on when talking with them, but I don’t find the evidence to support such views from Scripture either.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

I respect your opinion–whatever works for you.

Though the Church does not sentence anyone to hell, it does not mean that everyone is going to Heaven, no matter what choices they make or refuse to make.

As for those who reject/do not Believe God, it is simple: what they don’t believe can’t hurt them; so you can put your personal soft feelings aside and live life.

The reality is that we reap what we sow; blaming the sun for a sunburn is vacuous.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

…if you ask the average non-Catholic on the street (NYC tri-state area) they will state that the Bible has only 66 books; if you press, ‘Catholics added books;’ if you resist, ‘the KJ is the only Bible.’ Of course, there could be the odd one or two who would accept that Jehovah is a derivative of Yahweh and Adonai–just don’t tell them that it was first introduced by a Catholic Monk back in the thirteen hundreds.

Now, if you talk about a Bible scholar (it’s been my experience that more non-Catholics than Catholics go into the field of theology/linguistics in order to further their understanding of Scriptures) there could be a greater number of them accepting the Septuagint as a source (just recently I was surprised by a local pastor who took a small group to the ‘cause of the different variations in Biblical texts’ and he cited the Septuagint as a source).

…I concur with you that the original KJ included the same books as the Catholic Bible; the omission of them however took place previous to the 18 hundreds as Protestants would go back and forth on it (sometimes separating them from the rest of the books and sometimes removing them altogether):

From the Reformation, Protestants have usually excluded the books which Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians consider to be Deuterocanonical, viewing them as non-canonical. However, prior to an 1825 British and Foreign Bible Society decision, most Protestant Bibles did include these additional books within the same printed bibles. It was usually to be found in a separate section under the heading of Apocrypha and sometimes carrying a statement to the effect that the such books were non-canonical. A surviving quarto edition of the Great Bible, produced some time after 1549, does not contain the Apocrypha although most copies of the Great Bible did. A 1575 quarto edition of the Bishop’s Bible also does not contain them. Subsequently, some copies of the 1599 and 1640 editions of the Geneva Bible were also printed without them.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Bible)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[garegin_asatrya]

Great to know. Interesting factoid. Some Orthodox Bibles didn’t contain the Apocrypha either, as they were translated later

 

[Crusader13]

The analogy I used with regards to baptism was merely to demonstrate that the opposing views could not both in fact be true. The “exceptions” aren’t given by the church as ways one can attain salvation by willfully choosing to remain outside of the Church. Unfortunately, the bible wasn’t written in way that deals with every situation and circumstance that may arise as to if an individual may be saved.

The Church has attempted, I think validly, to try and address the possibility of what could happen in certain situations with regards to a person who seeks God, but is not familiar with the teachings of the Church. However, I think many have read into these teachings, especially with regards to the Catechism paragraphs you cited, a sort of universal salvation for all, simply because of God’s mercy. I think many of the “modern” teachings on such issues as salvation, have been too ambiguous, with the specific intent of fostering ecumenism.

The Catechism paragraphs 839 and more specifically 841, cite LG 16 (Lumen Gentium) as their basis for the Church’s teaching on salvation with regards to non-Christians. The first point is that in dealing with Jews and Muslims, the Church is attempting to show that they are “related” in various ways. This “relatedness” is not salvific in it’s application.

Second, when dealing with the salvation of the those outside of the Catholic Church, the original Latin document reads as follows:

> #1281 Qui mortem propter fidem patiuntur, catechumeni et omnes homines qui, sub gratiae impulsu, quin Ecclesiam cognoscant, Deum sincere quaerunt et Eius voluntatem implere conantur, salvari possunt, etiamsi Baptismum non receperint. The key phrase “salvari possunt” should be translated as “may be saved” or “can be saved” not as “are saved.” This is how the phrase is translated in the leading English translations of LG 16 and also how it is translated in other places where it appears in the Catechism. The jump from possibility to certainty about the salvation of people in this situation, common as it is, is not warranted by the text. (excerpt taken from Doctrinal Clarity for the New Evangelization: The Importance of Lumen Gentium 16 by Ralph Martin)