Losing salvation after being saved

ocuinn · May 16, 2014

Show me scriptures indicating that someone can be saved in Christ and then suddenly not be. Judas was a false convert and Jesus sadly warns that he would only be one of many that will stand speechless when they are cast out of heaven even though they called Him Lord.

rickielambert · May 16, 2014

"he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13)
We have been redeemed yes, but saved not yet. While we have a mortal body we can still loose the grace to enter heaven.
God Bless and may Our Lady protect you!
www.divinemercypopes.com

Trishie · May 16, 2014

You need to say at what moment you believe that one is saved. Do you mean at Baptism?

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

If a person means that one is saved the moment one says, “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” therefore from this moment I am saved regardless of anything else. then this does not conform with the bible.

I will give you other scriptures, but first, we need to look at Jesus who is judge of souls and what He describes as necessary for salvation.
When Jesus describes the judgement of souls, He does so on the basis of whether or not they have lived the command of love. He makes it clear that He will judge us by our acts of practical kindness to others, which He also takes as kindness/love, to Himself.

He does not say, that because you said to me that you accepted me as your Lord and Savior, you will go to heaven, He says because you lived acts of kindness:
"
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”

Those who did not live practical kindness to other merit hell.

" Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’ "

This is all in Matthew 25 verses 31-46

Even in this scripture, Jesus is assuring us that a single act of accepting Him as Lord and Savior, and even repeating this, does not get us into heaven.
He requires that we live the commands of love in a practical, realistic way.

Trishie · May 16, 2014

To accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior is only a beginning. Faith alone isn’t enough. Jesus demonstrates this.

You can understand the justification, the salvation, that St Paul speaks of as also being part of a process. Paul explains further in other texts, as does James.

Paul wrote, "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; " Philippians 2:12

From Scripture supporting that good works as well as repentance and faith is required for our entry into heaven is the following. It is not sufficient to ‘claim’ salvation. We have to live in obedience to the command to love God above all, and others as ourselves. We need not just faith, but faith and good works.

"Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. (Galations 6:7-9)

We reap the results of our actions, and we must not give up living the commands of love.

“It is not those who call me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven.” [Matthew 7:21]

In very specific response to the question, James wrote:

"Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.
This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realize, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did. This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God. You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]

Yes we must trust to the mercy of God, who alone gives value to good works
However good works are necessary. We will only be truly saved when Jesus at death Jesus welcomes us into His merciful love because to the best of our ability we have lived according to His command to genuinely love God and others, not just with words, not just with faith, but in practical kindness.

Trishie · May 16, 2014

*1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Code:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.1

1 Phil 2:12-13.* (Catechism)

Scripture in the Book of Ezekiel also provides a clear answer to your question regarding “losing salvation. [The concept of 'once saved, always saved,” is a Protestant one.]

Ezekiel 18:24

“But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.”

For understanding based on Scripture regarding Grace and Salvation
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

If there is still any lack of clarity, please let us know.
God bless.

meltzerboy · May 16, 2014

Not surprisingly, Jesus’ words are very Jewish in content and sentiment. Surely have faith in G-d but also reveal that faith via deeds toward others. A generation before Jesus, Rabbi Hillel the Elder summed up the teaching of Torah by instructing the people to love G-d and love thy neighbor, while all the rest of the Law is commentary on these two essential principles.

jmr_1985 · May 16, 2014

Others have answered your question with scripture. I would say, show me where OSAS was a belief of Christians prior to the 1500s? Our Lord founded a Church. He did not drop the Bible out of the sky. We must rely on what the Apostles taught us, sacred tradition and sacred scripture (written and oral teachings). Both are the Word of God through Christ. You can’t remove one and just rely on the other.

JMR

Jon_S_1 · May 16, 2014

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” Hebrews 10:26.

• “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” Matthew 5:8.

• “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21.

• “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22.

• “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.

• “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” Luke 10:25-28.

• “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” John 15:6.

• “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” 1 Timothy 4:1.

• “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” Jude 1:21.

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:5.

• “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Revelation 3:5.

• “…be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Revelation 2:10.

So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Rev 3:16

RPRPsych · May 16, 2014

Awesome.

Iron_Donkey · May 16, 2014

What is a false convert, how do you know Judas was one, and why do you demand scriptural references?

Which isn’t to say that finding scriptural references isn’t good - it certainly is - but if your plan after they are provided is to argue with what the Church says they mean, then you’re treating the bible wrong. (Apologies if I am reading too much into your post, but it seems rather combative, which just isn’t the right approach to take with these issues.)

I say all that not to avoid addressing your question, or because it’s not in the bible. It certainly is. St. Paul tells us we must persevere to the end, or we go to hell. As does St. Peter. And it’s generally in there a lot. Here is one passage I pulled up off the internet.

And so forth. But again, I especially warn you against the idea that all who fall into sin were “false converts.” There are many, many problems with that idea, not least that it presumes to take the role of God and judge the souls of our fellow humans.

St_Francis · May 16, 2014

Others have given you Scriptural references; I wonder about the logic of your position.

Part if the problem is the equivocal sleught of hand played by the people who believe this: if you are saved, you will persevere to the end. If a person does not persevere, he was not saved to begin with.

So, first, your definition of “saved” differs from ours; well, actually, we would not really use the term at all. We talk about people being in or out of a state of grace, and we assume that “being in a state of grace” is analogous to your idea of “being saved,” but upon examination, the two are not the same, and that is part of the problem.

The second is that your idea demolishes any confidence a person may have in his state, because altho he may *think *he is “saved,” later events may show that he was wrong about having been in a condition of being saved.

So a person who believes himself to be saved could commit a terrible sin, and then he would think, I can “re-do” (whatever he believes causes that change from unsaved to saved), but i thought before that I was saved and I wasn’t, so how will I know that I am saved this time around?

If tou think “belief in Christ” saves, then you can think about St James 2:19: even the demons believe and tremble.

jcrichton · May 16, 2014

Hi, ocuinn!

Yeah, it is hard to understand how a person can be “Saved” and still lose Salvation… yet, it happens!

Judas being a special case… during this exercise, lets forget him and those who chose to emulate him. To the Believers the Apostles have very specific Teachings:

5 With this in view, do your utmost to support your faith with goodness, goodness with understanding, 6 understanding with self-control, self-control with perseverance, perseverance with devotion, 7 devotion with kindness to the brothers, and kindness to the brothers with love. 8 The possession and growth of these qualities will prevent your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ from being ineffectual or unproductive. 9 But without them, a person is blind or short-sighted, forgetting how the sins of the past were washed away. 10 Instead of this, brothers, never allow your choice or calling to waver; then there will be no danger of your stumbling, 11 for in this way you will be given the generous gift of entry to the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 That is why I will always go on recalling the same truths to you, even though you already know them and are firmly fixed in these truths. 13 I am sure it is my duty, as long as I am in this tent, to keep stirring you up with reminders, (2 St. Peter 1:5-13)

This, to me, is a beautiful passage that exemplifies our Faith and our Salvation (check St. John 15:1-10 and 3:14-21)… no wonder St. Paul states that we must “workout our Salvation in fear and trembling!” Salvation is not a mere “pass” into eternity. It is a conscious and determined Life in Christ Jesus! Noticed how Jesus did not offer His Followers great wealth and joy… He stressed that since the world did not Believe and Receive Him, they, the Disciples, would also be rejected and even persecuted, imprisoned, and put to death… interestingly enough, this is another passage that demonstrates that Salvation is a Free Gift that must be accepted but that it is not an “eternally saved” ticket (St. Matthew 24:9:13–specifically 13).

I will share one more passage:

1 Let us beware, then: since the promise never lapses, none of you must think that he has come too late for the promise of entering his place of rest. 2 We received the gospel exactly as they did; but hearing the message did them no good because they did not share the faith of those who did listen. (Hebrews 4:1-2–read to verse 13)

Because the first part of this passage indicates that the Gift of Salvation is enduring (till the final Day) many mistakenly belief that that means that Salvation cannot be lost–they may even use Christ’s Word (no one can snatch them (the sheep) from my Father’s Hand); yet, the second part, which works well with St. Peter’s Teaching above, demonstrates that there is an indispensable interaction: the Promise (Salvation) is patent and everlasting but man must Humbly Obey God’s Word (Jn 15:1-10 and 3:14-21).

I hope this helps; if you require a few more just let me know.

Maran atha!

Angel

JRKH · May 16, 2014

Just have to point out that no one will be “thrown out of heaven”…they will not make it there in the first place…

As others have shown there are many Scriptures that point to the ability to fall away. Now - as “St Francis” points out below, much can depend on what you mean by “saved in Christ”. When you believe this occurs.

So - before the conversation can really make a lot of headway - the terms and definitions need to be clear.

Great Post here…

This has been my experience as well.
In the end, after much debate the usual conclusion is that, yes - once a person is truly saved, they will not lose their salvation. The problem is that one cannot be sure they are truly saved (no danger of falling away) on this side of corporeal death.

This fact makes the whole OSAS idea a moot point…at least as I see it…

Peace
James

Ed_Silvia · May 16, 2014

I listened to this interesting debate between James White & Jimmy Akin and I must say each gentleman gives a compelling argument to the point that I felt whichever one had the last word would be the way I tended. Honestly.

youtube.com/watch?v=EZtDKbnjIG0

I’ve also come to the conclusion that once we are saved we are always saved as long as we live like we aren’t.

Robyn_p · May 16, 2014

If only false converts are at risk of falling away, does that mean that St. Paul was a false convert then? Because he himself expressed concern over losing his salvation:

“I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after having preached to others I myself should be disqualified.”(1 Cor 9:27)

Of all people, I would say Paul is the last person on earth who should say something like that, if OSAS were true. Yet that’s not what we see here.

The Bible is filled to the brim with passages exhorting believers to hold fast and persevere, as other posters have pointed out well. Yet, this makes no sense if true believers are not at risk of falling away. Why warn people of something that’s not really a concern for real Christians?

Hawkiz · May 16, 2014

Romans 11:17-23 says:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the rich root[a] of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember that it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.** 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And even those of Israel,[c] if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for ***God has the power to graft them in again. ***

In particular, vs22-23 here make little to no sense if a believer is never in danger of losing salvation. Let’s be very clear of what is being said in this passage: St. Paul is directing his comments here to a group of people who ALREADY BELIEVE. They are part of the Church of Rome. They have been baptized. They have participated in the Eucharist. They have professed their faith. And yet, St. Paul is warning them that they must not falter, or God will cut them out!!! Why would St. Paul do this if those who professed their faith were not in mortal danger of throwing their salvation away? He reminds us that it is a gift from God that we can be saved at all (God’s kindness towards you) BUT…he says in the very next phrase that WE have a role to play in our own salvation…how? “PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS.” This does NOT equate to “works based salvation” or any other such nonsense. The Catholic Church has never once taught that we “earn” our way to Heaven. What it means, and what the Church does teach is that God the Father wants us to want Him - and further, He wants us to demonstrate that we want Him…through not just our words (other Scripture has been used in this thread to show that) but through our actions (other posters have done an excellent job of showing that through Scripture too)

Ocuinn, do you have someone challenging you about OSAS? Are you looking for help to frame a response? Or were you asking for yourself?**

josh987654321 · May 18, 2014

Sure, Matthew 18:21-35
An Official Who Refused To Forgive:

In the same way, once saved always saved I believe is like saying, once the debt is forgiven it’s always forgiven, however in this passage, we see how by the officals refusal to show that same mercy, his debt was reinstated. I believe it works the same way when Catholics say we are saved by Faith and Works.

Instead of looking to OSAS, I would instead be looking to the divine mercy of God, (St Faustina).

"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy. Oh, how much I am hurt by a soul’s distrust! Such a soul professes that I am Holy and Just, but does not believe that I am Mercy and does not trust in My Goodness. Even the devils glorify My Justice but do not believe in My Goodness" (Diary, 300).

"My mercy is greater than your sins and those of the entire world. Who can measure the extent of my goodness? For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart. Your misery has disappeared in the depths of My mercy" (Diary, 1485).

"Oh, if sinners knew My mercy, they would not perish in such great numbers. Tell sinful souls not to be afraid to approach Me; speak to them of My great mercy" (Diary, 1396).

The great tragedy of Judas, is that he could have been St. Judas if he had trusted in the mercy of God.

Hope I have helped

Thank you for reading
Josh

ericc · May 18, 2014

I thought Acts 5:1-10 illustrates that. Before Ananias/Sapphira lied to God, they were still “alright”. But meeting death right after a mortal sin, I guess you can that they “suddenly not be”.

ocuinn · May 20, 2014

Works are for fellowship with God and reward. And as the Bible states, we SHOULD walk in them. But we don’t have to to remain children of God. It’s not a MUST. The must comes from Jesus’ own words when He says you MUST be born again. That creates relationship. Works are for fellowship, saving faith is for relationship which God says over and over He will never take from us. If you want to see contradictions in your bible, make a claim that God will lose one of his children that he gave eternal life. That will do it. The confusion on this issue comes from people taking verses that have to do with dying, or losing fellowship and making those salvation verses. We have to be clear on what God is referring to. Jesus is only clear and direct when speaking of faith in Him as the only thing needed for redemption of sins and a seal and promise of that redemption forever. The opposite view has no such clarity.

jcrichton · May 20, 2014

Hi ocuinn!

I am a little confused… you state that we do not have to remain children of God and that Salvation is eternal?

That all we need to is be born again as Jesus Christ says because in Him (I guess in “claiming”) redemption of sins and the seal of promise is forever?

…Jesus has a different take on that… He states that we must abide in Him so that He may abide in us (St. John 15:1-10) and the Apostles Taught that we must not only “claim” that we are children of Light but actually Walk in the Light (1 St. John 1:5-7). While it is true that Salvation is Granted Free and it is a long-lasting offer (not eternal since there will come a time when all will be resurrected and will no longer be in need of Salvation), it is not true that we can gain Salvation by claiming Christ and then rejecting Him with our behavior. If this were so then the wages of sin (as St. Paul states it) is not death but death only for those who are not “true” Believers or pagans. Yet, every time that the Apostles speak on Salvation they are not addressing the issue of the pagans and non-Believers ONLY:

**19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20 the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21 factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. ** (Galatians 5:19-21)

5 For you can be quite certain that nobody who indulges in sexual immorality or impurity or greed – which is worshipping a false god – can inherit the kingdom of God. 6 Do not let anyone deceive you with empty arguments: it is such behaviour that draws down God’s retribution on those who rebel against him. 7 Make sure that you do not throw in your lot with them. 8 You were darkness once, but now you are light in the Lord; behave as children of light, 9 for the effects of the light are seen in complete goodness and uprightness and truth. (Ephisians 5:5-9)

For the Believers, it is not merely a “claim” of Salvation but actually adopting a new Way, a new Life (St. John 1:12-13) and in this Life we have Christ as our Mediator in front of the Father and we must exist in Him (St. John 15:5-10).

Salvation is Granted. Salvation is found only in Christ:

1 Since you have been raised up to be with Christ, you must look for the things that are above, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on things above, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. 4 But when Christ is revealed – and he is your life-you, too, will be revealed with him in glory. 5 That is why you must kill everything in you that is earthly: sexual vice, impurity, uncontrolled passion, evil desires and especially greed, which is the same thing as worshipping a false god; 6 it is precisely these things which draw God’s retribution upon those who resist. 7 And these things made up your way of life when you were living among such people, 8 but now you also must give up all these things: human anger, hot temper, malice, abusive language and dirty talk; 9 and do not lie to each other. You have stripped off your old behaviour with your old self, 10 and you have put on a new self which will progress towards true knowledge the more it is renewed in the image of its Creator; (Colosisans 3:1-10)

Jesus tells us that if we Believe in Him we must Obey His Commandments!

Maran atha!

Angel

Losing salvation after being saved

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