Losing salvation after being saved

[jcrichton]

Yet, Jesus gave him several chances to repent (identifying him as the betrayer at the last supper and asking him if he would - was willing - to betray the Son of Man in the garden), but he did not repent before causing the harm, and fell into despair afterward. A marked contrast with Peter, who repented and kept the faith. Even so, both fulfilled Jesus’ prophecy about them - one negative, one positive. I see a similarity to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, who were confronted by Peter and given the opportunity to repent, but persisted in their lie unto death.

Some non-Catholics claim that Judas was a “false convert” and possibly the same with Ananias and Sapphira. If the truth of our conversion cannot be known until our death then, against scripture, Christ has indeed left us orphans, unknowing in this life and with no sure hope of our salvation. The “sure hope” that we believe in is distinct from the false doctrine of OSAS, which presumes salvation and puts God to the test.

Hi, po18guy!

…but that’s just it! Judas could not have realized how wrong he was till the act fully took place. It is as the high priest prophesying that:

**49 One of them, Caiaphas, the high priest that year, said, ‘You do not seem to have grasped the situation at all; 50 you fail to see that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people, rather than that the whole nation should perish.’ 51 He did not speak in his own person, but as high priest of that year he was prophesying that Jesus was to die for the nation- 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather together into one the scattered children of God. 53 From that day onwards they were determined to kill him. **(St. John 11:49-53)

It was necessary for Christ to be put to death; just as it was necessary for Judas to betray Him… otherwise the prophecies would not have been fulfilled!

The issue with those who claim to know the exactness of their Salvation is an exercise in futility since Salvation is a Gift that has but one perquisite: that we Stand:

**31 To the Jews who believed in him Jesus said: If you make my word your home you will indeed be my disciples; 32 you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free. 33 They answered, 'We are descended from Abraham and we have never been the slaves of anyone; what do you mean, “You will be set free?” ’ 34 Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave. 35 Now a slave has no permanent standing in the household, but a son belongs to it for ever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free. ** (St. John 8:31-36–highlighted in St. John 15:1-10–intensified in verses 5 and 6)

…the second we choose to stray from the Vine and willfully remain fruitless we have rendered God’s Gift as “rejected!”

This, of course, does not mean that God has taken back the Gift–it means only that man chose not to coexist in obedience to God’s Will (Isaiah 1:18-20).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi, po18guy!

…but that’s just it! Judas could not have realized how wrong he was till the act fully took place. It is as the high priest prophesying that:

**49 One of them, Caiaphas, the high priest that year, said, ‘You do not seem to have grasped the situation at all; 50 you fail to see that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people, rather than that the whole nation should perish.’ 51 He did not speak in his own person, but as high priest of that year he was prophesying that Jesus was to die for the nation- 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather together into one the scattered children of God. 53 From that day onwards they were determined to kill him. **(St. John 11:49-53)

It was necessary for Christ to be put to death; just as it was necessary for Judas to betray Him… otherwise the prophecies would not have been fulfilled!

The issue with those who claim to know the exactness of their Salvation is an exercise in futility since Salvation is a Gift that has but one perquisite: that we Stand:

**31 To the Jews who believed in him Jesus said: If you make my word your home you will indeed be my disciples; 32 you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free. 33 They answered, 'We are descended from Abraham and we have never been the slaves of anyone; what do you mean, “You will be set free?” ’ 34 Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave. 35 Now a slave has no permanent standing in the household, but a son belongs to it for ever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free. ** (St. John 8:31-36–highlighted in St. John 15:1-10–intensified in verses 5 and 6)

…the second we choose to stray from the Vine and willfully remain fruitless we have rendered God’s Gift as “rejected!”

This, of course, does not mean that God has taken back the Gift–it means only that man chose not to coexist in obedience to God’s Will (Isaiah 1:18-20).

Maran atha!

Angel

We can have assurance of Christ’s promise that if we maintain faith (which includes repentance) until the end that we will be saved.

It is reasonable and just to hold such a position.

It is unreasonable to live a life of faith and at the end say “I don’t know if I am good enough”. That’s relying on ourselves for salvation.

It is equally unreasonable to presume salvation regardless of how we live (OSAS)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I’ve heard it said that Catholics can never have an absolute certainty of salvation but they can have a moral certainty of salvation. Is this true? What is the difference between moral certainty and absolute certainty?

Is moral certainty something like “beyond a reasonable doubt”?

In other words if a Catholic is in a state of grace and regularly partakes of the sacraments and tries to love his neighbor as himself is he then morally certain that if he continues to persevere in his state of grace that he will go to heaven?

I believe a Catholic can be morally certain but if one commits the sin of presumption and thinks that he is absolutely assured of salvation then that Catholic has sinned against the Holy Spirit and is in a state of mortal sin and is in jeopardy of possibly going to Hell?

Help me Catholics out there–is it OK and possible for a Catholic to be morally certain of his salvation but Not absolutely certain of his salvation?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ve heard it said that Catholics can never have an absolute certainty of salvation but they can have a moral certainty of salvation. Is this true? What is the difference between moral certainty and absolute certainty?

Is moral certainty something like “beyond a reasonable doubt”?

In other words if a Catholic is in a state of grace and regularly partakes of the sacraments and tries to love his neighbor as himself is he then morally certain that if he continues to persevere in his state of grace that he will go to heaven?

I believe a Catholic can be morally certain but if one commits the sin of presumption and thinks that he is absolutely assured of salvation then that Catholic has sinned against the Holy Spirit and is in a state of mortal sin and is in jeopardy of possibly going to Hell?

Help me Catholics out there–is it OK and possible for a Catholic to be morally certain of his salvation but Not absolutely certain of his salvation?

If you are baptized, and in a state of grace, you are assured of salvation at that moment.

It is presumption when you say “I will be saved when I die” you don’t know what the future holds, what sins you may commit and not repent from , etc…

 

[po18guy]

If you are baptized, and in a state of grace, you are assured of salvation at that moment.

It is presumption when you say “I will be saved when I die” you don’t know what the future holds, what sins you may commit and not repent from , etc…

Presumption being a sin which violates the theological virtue of hope, regardless of whether that presumption is of salvation or of damnation. OSAS presumes salvation. (CCC 2091, 2092) I note that preaching OSAS seems to keep the tithing cash flowing, while preaching the opposite, (ODAD?) would cause tithing to drop.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Loving God and wanting to be with God requires free will as a precondition. We are made for that and, in a certain sense, ordered toward it, but loving God is not a sure thing in any case.

If you choose to love someone, you can still turn your back from that person and reject that person later.

“Once saved, always saved” is illogical and incompatible with true Christianity because it denies free will and, therefore, is an indirect denial of being able to love at all in the first place. Or else, it makes God your slave: “I can do whatever I want and I’m still going to Heaven, 'cuz God.***”

***I’m not saying this is the sentiment of most or even many people who believe in OSAS, but what I said is a necessary logical conclusion of OSAS.

 

[zz912]

I’ve heard it said that Catholics can never have an absolute certainty of salvation but they can have a moral certainty of salvation. Is this true? What is the difference between moral certainty and absolute certainty?

Is moral certainty something like “beyond a reasonable doubt”?

In other words if a Catholic is in a state of grace and regularly partakes of the sacraments and tries to love his neighbor as himself is he then morally certain that if he continues to persevere in his state of grace that he will go to heaven?

I believe a Catholic can be morally certain but if one commits the sin of presumption and thinks that he is absolutely assured of salvation then that Catholic has sinned against the Holy Spirit and is in a state of mortal sin and is in jeopardy of possibly going to Hell?

Help me Catholics out there–is it OK and possible for a Catholic to be morally certain of his salvation but Not absolutely certain of his salvation?

We can be ABSOLUTELY certain that Christ WILL fulfill His promises IF we remain in Him. We cannot be certain of what we will do in the future.

Does that help to clear it up?

 

[jcrichton]

I’ve heard it said that Catholics can never have an absolute certainty of salvation but they can have a moral certainty of salvation. Is this true? What is the difference between moral certainty and absolute certainty?

Is moral certainty something like “beyond a reasonable doubt”?

In other words if a Catholic is in a state of grace and regularly partakes of the sacraments and tries to love his neighbor as himself is he then morally certain that if he continues to persevere in his state of grace that he will go to heaven?

I believe a Catholic can be morally certain but if one commits the sin of presumption and thinks that he is absolutely assured of salvation then that Catholic has sinned against the Holy Spirit and is in a state of mortal sin and is in jeopardy of possibly going to Hell?

Help me Catholics out there–is it OK and possible for a Catholic to be morally certain of his salvation but Not absolutely certain of his salvation?

Hi, Jerry-Jet!

We know, without any uncertainties, that Salvation is a Free Gift from God.

We know, with extreme clarity, that Christ is that Salvation.

(The above applies to moral certainty.)

We know, through extensive revelations, that we must adhere to Christ.

We know, through Christ’s Teachings, that not all who claim Salvation will gain it.

We know, through our personal experiences, that we can and will fail time and again.

We know, through final revelation (Apocalypse), that nothing impure will enter into that portion of the Resurrection (Resurrection of Life) that is known as Salvation.

We know that, though Salvation is Granted Willfully by God, man does not know how he will Stand on that very last Call!

This is why the Catholic Church does not Teach “once saved…” theologies.

Maran atha!

Angel