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mcq72
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Well, without reading commentary or Calvin please enlighten me where CC says baptized folk may never have been born again/ in God’s grace in the first place and Calvin not.
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Vico
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Although all baptized remain with the character mark of baptism, some baptisms are not fruitful. Others are fruitful, but the person loosed friendship with God through serious sin and does not repent before death.
2 Peter 1
John 34 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit: Mt 12:31; cf. Mk 3:29; Lk 12:1036 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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Julius_Caesar
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Baptism is when you’re born again. Even Calvinists will agree to that.where CC says baptized folk may never have been born again/ in God’s grace in the first place
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Julius_Caesar
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A person who’s spiritually dead isn’t religious. Try again.Being religious yet spiritually dead is as old as our time in the Garden.
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mcq72
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“In the spirit of such a serious hearing, the position of this essay is that Calvin did not teach what we commonly call “baptismal regeneration”. Thus, adhering to a “bare sign” low view of baptism is not the only means of breeching faith with the Reformed tradition; going to the opposite extreme and holding to anything akin to “baptismal regeneration” is equally unfaithful. In contrast to both these poles, Calvin’s view might be summed up by the term “baptismal efficacy”. In other words: for Calvin, baptism is a means of grace. According to the Reformers there were three means of grace in the church: Word, sacrament, and prayer. And these three means become effectual in a qualified sense. And that qualified sense is this: they are efficacious only in the lives of the elect when they are received by faith and in the power of the Holy Spirit.In other words, for Calvin there is no automatic ex opere operato connection between the means of grace and the person receiving them.”Baptism is when you’re born again. Even Calvinists will agree to that.
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mcq72
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Actually not sure what CC teaches, as to whether any human is spiritually dead>A person who’s spiritually dead isn’t religious. Tru again.
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Julius_Caesar
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And yet he baptized infants?
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lanman87
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It is my understanding, from watching videos of Presbyterian Teachers, is that Reformed Theology is Covenant Theology. Infant Baptism is not baptismal regeneration, but enters the child into the new covenant/visible church. But the child still has to come to faith in order to be “born again”.And yet he baptized infants?
Edit to add. Actually, I have it backwards, the child comes faith when they are born again. Faith doesn’t cause them to be born again, being born again causes them to have faith.
Perhaps any Presbyterians/Reformed reading this could elaborate.
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lanman87
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I disagree. It is possible to be very religious and yet not be born again.A person who’s spiritually dead isn’t religious. Try again.
Plenty of people have been taught to “follow the rules” and yet their heart remains a stone.
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Julius_Caesar
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Then you disagree with James.It is possible to be very religious and yet not be born again.
If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile.
James 1:26 NET
Notice how James says.“thinks he is religious.” So you disagree with the Holy Scriptures.
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Julius_Caesar
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Vs Jesus’ words that one needs to believe AND be baptized.Infant Baptism is not baptismal regeneration, but enters the child into the new covenant/visible church. But the child still has to come to faith in order to be “born again
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mcq72
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I don’t know of anyone who became “enlightened” coming up out of the waters. I don’t know anyone who went in not believing and came out believing.Vs Jesus’ words that one needs to believe AND be baptized.
Faith cometh by hearing.
That is not to say they did not grow in grace out of it, or grow in their faith, as any obedience and experience in Christ should.
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Julius_Caesar
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Peter seems to think so.I don’t know of anyone who became “enlightened” coming up out of the waters.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 NET
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mcq72
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lol…here we go…being born again, regeneration, born of God is not necessarily receiving the gift of God himself, but the gift from God to revive our spirits /nature, towards Him. It is something that is done to us.Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 NET
Peter first mentions repent. Repent from what ? Unbelief. So you need the gift of faith given to a regenerated heart. Only regenerated heart after God would gladly enter the waters , which they did in Acts. Gladly. Were they not washed by the Word first, by what they heard, ?
Otherwise you are saying unregenerated man can be righteous, that the flesh can availeth itself of saving faith, bringing himself to the waters.
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mcq72
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It is my understanding, from watching videos of Presbyterian Teachers, is that Reformed Theology is Covenant Theology. Infant Baptism is not baptismal regeneration, but enters the child into the new covenant/visible church. But the child still has to come to faith in order to be “born again”.
Edit to add. Actually, I have it backwards, the child comes faith when they are born again. Faith doesn’t cause them to be born again, being born again causes them to have faith.
Perhaps any Presbyterians/Reformed reading this could elaborate.
it to me is a marbled mess. One is clear, Calvin did not hold to the Catholic view, or the view that was practiced ? Yet he comes very close apparently in some writings while clarifying in others. So i don’t want to step on any reformed opinions.
In article here Calvin may indeed say infants are born again, and like Catholics, agree to a sort of confirmation at age of reasoning, If the child departs he does not say he never was a child of God but infers they simply walked away from what they had, key word had( not a double election predestination). I was surprised because he says baptism and circumcision are same for there respective covenants. To me i said good in the respect that he kind of was saying OT saints were regenerated/born again.
“These passages make it obvious to Calvin, that circumcision is the sign of mortification, and that Israel has been chosen as the people of God out of all the nations of the earth(Deut.10:15; Inst.4, 16, 3). As Abraham commands them[the people of Israel] to be circumcised, so Moses declares that they ought to be circumcised in heart, “explaining the true meaning of this carnal circumcision”(Deut. 30:6; Inst.4, 16, 3). Calvin concludes that “we have, therefore, a spiritual promise given to the patriarches in circumcision such as is given us in baptism, since it represented for them[the Jews] forgiveness of sins and mortification of the flesh”(Inst.4, 16, 3). Calvin argues that the symbols of the promise represent the same thing, “namely, **regeneration”(**Inst.4, 16, 4). For Calvin it appears “incontrovertible” that baptism has taken the place of circumcision “to fulfill the same office among us”(Inst.4, 16, 4).”
https://www.reformedtheology.ca/baptism.html
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Julius_Caesar
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Is being born of water and Spirit. Baptism.lol…here we go…being born again, regeneration,
The early Church agrees it’s baptism.
Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
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Julius_Caesar
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Again, Peter said, “Repent AND be baptized.” He wouldn’t have said be baptized if it wasn’t necessary.Peter first mentions repent. Repent from what ? Unbelief. So you need the gift of faith given to a regenerated heart. Only regenerated heart after God would gladly enter the waters , which they did in Acts.
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lanman87
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I don’t understand your point. Futile religion is what I’m referencing. Those who outwardly follow the tenants of religion but his heart is not changed. They think their religion is what matters when in fact is what is in the heart. There are plenty of people who follow religion and have a deceived heart.If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile.
James 1:26 NET
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Julius_Caesar
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Which ultimately means nothing. You say James speaks or genuine faith and false faith, while ignoring how James defines religion.Futile religion is what I’m referencing.
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mcq72
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necessary for what , a first work of obedience, to seal our salvation, to show faith alive as per James?Again, Peter said, “Repent AND be baptized.” He wouldn’t have said be baptized if it wasn’t necessary.
Peter does not say anything here about regeneration/new birth.
Again, can flesh or a spirit dead in trespasses in sin, believe unto salvation and gladly start following ?Martyr says people believed everything they were taught , then are baptized. They believe already.
“In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Yes, I hear this a lot at baptisms and rightly so and even though it does not say “repents and is baptized”. The baptism is a showing forth of such repentance, but the transformation of the heart has already taken place. The angels do not wait for the applause till the water comes off, or when they first have communion, another command for eternal life per CC. No , they rejoice in my opinion at the heart conversion, miracle of all miracles, of God’s work without elements ( but later signified thereof, after all, we are in a physical world also) .
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