Loss of Rewards

[mcq72]

Because the Holy Spirit hadn’t come yet. We see this in Acts 2:38, the fulfillment of what Jesus told Nico.

We have been over this. In regards to being born again, regeneration, one must ask why did Nicodemus not believe about Jesus what others believed about him already in John 3.

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”
John 3:11

The we and our suggest a body of believers, as in the apostles, and disciples, and many others who were baptized accordingly , and not just Jesus.

Again, you are saying being circumcised in the heart did not occur until Pentecost. You are saying men can believe and " see" without regeneration. You are saying no one was born again until Pentecost. You are saying no one filled with the Spirit before Pentecost was regenerated. You are saying you can confess the Lord rightly as many did before Pentecost and still be unregenerate.

Being born again is not only a NT phenomenom but has existed since the fall.

Those waiting in hades in paradise were righteous in the Lord. They were not unregenerate in spirit. They were born of the Spirit, Children of God, awaiting for the gates of heaven to be opened, Jesus being the first fruit to enter.

 

[Vico]

why did Nicodemus not believe about Jesus what others believed about him

Nicodemus was a Pharisee and we do not know if Nicodemus converted but do know of his presence at the burial John 19:38-42 to which he brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

In regards to being born again, regeneration, one must ask why did Nicodemus not believe about Jesus what others believed about him already in John 3.

Not even the Apostles could comprehend it. Again there was no Holy Spirit in the equation.

The we and our suggest a body of believers, as in the apostles, and disciples, and many others who were baptized accordingly , and not just Jesus

Were they baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit? No.

You are saying men can believe and " see" without regeneration

There is natural faith, and supernatural faith. The people who heard Peter’s message were cut to the heart. They did not have the Holy Spirit: Jesus had not yet died.

You are saying no one was born again until Pentecost. You are saying no one filled with the Spirit before Pentecost was regenerated. You are saying you can confess the Lord rightly as many did before Pentecost and still be unregenerate

Water and the Spirit. Do we see anyone of the Apostles acting as they did before Pentecost?

Those waiting in hades in paradise were righteous in the Lord.

And they still had to be released by the Lord when He died and when the cleansing water and saving blood flowed from His side.

 

[mcq72]

Were they (believers in John 3) baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit? No.

Was Simeon, Peter, Lazarus? How did Jesus and apostles baptize? Did people get rebaptized, even John’s disciples who then followed Jesus?

To my point then. They believed without trinitarian baptism possibly. Now do you want to state those believers were just like Nicodemus, and needed water and the Spirit, new birth, to be born of the Father?

Not even the Apostles could comprehend it. Again there was no Holy Spirit in the equation

Oh, and we fully comprehend, see? At what point of comprehension does one believe, or deemed born again?
Jesus did not say they “will see” but see as in now.

Will agree they certainly knew more in John 6, and then more in 12 and 21 and in Acts 2, then 15 etc.

There is natural faith, and supernatural faith.

And? Can natural faith by hearing the word make you saved? Does natural faith regenerate a fallen spirit?

The people who heard Peter’s message were cut to the heart. They did not have the Holy Spirit: Jesus had not yet died.

In Acts? Cause he did die by then.

Water and the Spirit. Do we see anyone of the Apostles acting as they did before Pentecost?

Did they believe differently, I mean Jesus was Messiah to them before and after Pentecost. That did not change. Power and conviction to act upon such faith certainly was dramatically changed.

Does not mean they were unregenerate, not born of God before Pentecost. Yes, Jesus breathed upon them for infilling before Ascension, and baptized them for power at Pentecost.These are methods of the Holy Spirit operating with us. Circumcising of the heart, renewing a right spirit, regenerating He has done since the fall. That is the first step of several before we reach full restoration, and more in that great day.

And by the way, there are several instances of OT saints being filled with the Spirit. And even more empowered by the Holy Ghost. But agree more constant and widespread after Pentecost.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

In Acts? Cause he did die by then.

Typo on my part. Yet Jesus’ disciples did not have the Holy Spirit, before Pentecost because He didn’t die yet.

And by the way, there are several instances of OT saints being filled with the Spirit.

To prophesy. There’s never an instance were the Holy Spirit is given in the way Christians have it.

At what point of comprehension does one believe, or deemed born again?

It depends on whether one is baptized. As the Fathers of the Church understood it, baptism is being born again.

Did people get rebaptized, even John’s disciples who then followed Jesus?

Many did. The Apostles on Pentecost received the flame. And we don’t know if those on Pentecost interacted with John. I assume they did.

At what point of comprehension does one believe, or deemed born again?

The Gospel writers take great pains to emphasize that the Apostles had the same hardness of heart that the crowds had, and this was more than mere incomprehension. This changed at Pentecost.

Did they believe differently, I mean Jesus was Messiah to them before and after Pentecost

“Lord, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
“Why do you gaze into heaven?”
Yeah, same old blokes.

Does not mean they were unregenerate, not born of God before Pentecost.

Show me where. You still have yet to comment on the traditional understanding of John 3:5.

To my point then. They believed without trinitarian baptism possibly.

Still doesn’t negate it’s neccesity. Considering Jesus required this in making disciples of all nations.

 

[mcq72]

You still have yet to comment on the traditional understanding of John 3:5.

I think I have. You are born again when you here the gospel and are graced to convert, repent, turn around and believe Him. It is sealed upon confession as represented at baptism.

Disagree with those who say it is a future, post pentecost event. Disagree who say born again means exclusively an indwelling of the Holy Ghost and or His baptism also, therefore excluding all saints before Pentecost.

Still doesn’t negate it’s neccesity. Considering Jesus required this in making disciples of all nations.

Necesity for what, to be indwelt, baptized by Holy Ghost, to finally believe? Or to seal the deal, the first showing forth of a new life, with the mouth( confession of faith)?

 

[mcq72]

To prophesy. There’s never an instance were the Holy Spirit is given in the way Christians have it.

Beg to differ. The first thing Peter did at Pentecost was to at least prophesy.

As the Fathers of the Church understood it, baptism is being born again.

Well, at this point it is what we think they understood. The first church preached the gospel, and if they believed it they were then immediately baptized. (The catechumen or waiting thing came later). So it is natural to understand the baptism as being representative of first believing and being baptized.

Many did.

Get rebaptized? I have not seen one instance where a person was baptized by John, or by the apostles before Pentecost, and then again after Pentecost.

Now of course you if you mean baptized not by water but by the Holy Ghost, very good, and pentecostal folk strongly agree.

The Gospel writers take great pains to emphasize that the Apostles had the same hardness of heart that the crowds had, and this was more than mere incomprehension.

Yes and no.

Are you saying Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, David, Ruth, Simeon, Anna had hardness of heart as did the apostles, because none were baptized by Holy Ghost until Pentecost, and were not born again, regenerated, born of God, a child of God?

Will agree on one thing. For sure we have all failed at one time or another, or been thick headed, hard hearted in one fashion or another towards the Lord, and it would be right to examine if we have indeed been baptized by the Holy Ghost, or at least seek His power in said dark areas. But to say we are thusly not born again is something else (though also possible).

For sure the apostles were empowered tremendously via their pentecost baptism, but does not negate saving faith stemming from new birth, even an indwelling of the Holy Ghost beforehand.

“Lord, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
“Why do you gaze into heaven?”
Yeah, same old blokes.

Legitimate question though.Certainly not a question that shows they were not born again. For sure they didn’t want Jesus to leave more out of weakness yet legitimate dependence. The baptism soon to come was the power and presence to overcome that.

Anyways, truer and more fundamental picture of their pre pentecostal new birth is this:

“Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”

John.6.68-69.KJV

 

[mcq72]

Show me where.( they were born again)

Well, we like everything neat and tidy, fitting into a nice theological box. Jesus says,

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:8 KJV

Does not sound like a solidly set ritual of water baptism, but more like the inner conversion of a man’ s heart, the graced conclusion of wrestling with the gospel preached by men and of nature itself.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

think I have. You are born again when you here the gospel and are graced to convert, repent, turn around and believe Him. It is sealed upon confession as represented at baptism.

Evading Irenaeus and Justin Martyr’s commentary, I see.

Disagree with those who say it is a future, post pentecost event. Disagree who say born again means exclusively an indwelling of the Holy Ghost and or His baptism also, therefore excluding all saints before Pentecost.

So they were fine then. Jesus didn’t have to come for them in Sheol. Yeah, Scripture goes against you.

Necesity for what, to be indwelt, baptized by Holy Ghost, to finally believe? Or to seal the deal, the first showing forth of a new life, with the mouth( confession of faith)?

What part of, “Repent and be baptized in Jesus’ name and you will receive the Holy Spirit” do you not understand?

Beg to differ.

Then you differ with Scripture not with me. Peter did all those things after he received the flame not before.

Well, at this point it is what we think they understood.

So you are saying they changed their understanding. The whole crux of it appears.

The first church preached the gospel, and if they believed it they were then immediately baptized. (The catechumen or waiting thing came later).

The same thing happens. The catechumens learn the Gospel and then get baptized.

Get rebaptized? I have not seen one instance where a person was baptized by John, or by the apostles before Pentecost, and then again after Pentecost

Abscense of evidence isn’t evidence of abscense. And there is. Remember the story of Paul in Ephesus?

Are you saying Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, David, Ruth, Simeon, Anna had hardness of heart as did the apostles, because none were baptized by Holy Ghost until Pentecost, and were not born again, regenerated, born of God, a child of God?

They all were in Sheol before Christ died. They still needed baptism’s effects, which Christ gave when blood and water flowed from His side.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

For sure the apostles were empowered tremendously via their pentecost baptism, but does not negate saving faith stemming from new birth, even an indwelling of the Holy Ghost beforehand.

We hear John’s commentary on this.

On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘ From within him will flow rivers of living water .’” (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37‭-‬39 NET

Yeah. I’m gonna take John over you.

Legitimate question though.Certainly not a question that shows they were not born again

Having the Spirit dwell and empower one with his gifts what makes one born again. The Apostles still had their minds on the things of the world.even.by the time Jesus went up.

Peter says as much when reflecting on his time with Jesus.

And Jesus ordered them, “Watch out! Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod!” So they began to discuss with one another about having no bread. When he learned of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you arguing about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Have your hearts been hardened? Though you have eyes, don’t you see? And though you have ears, can’t you hear? Don’t you remember?
Mark 8:15‭-‬18 NET

This only occurs when you lack the Spirit of God.

Does not sound like a solidly set ritual of water baptism

I like how you ignore the fifth verse.

Water and Spirit is what makes one born again.

 

[mcq72]

Evading Irenaeus and Justin Martyr’s commentary, I see.

no,I addressed them…that is your perception of their writings

So they were fine then. Jesus didn’t have to come for them in Sheol. Yeah, Scripture goes against you.

is that like saying Mary was fine then, being immaculate , so why did He have to go to the cross?

Al righteousness since the garden centers on faith in shed blood, with focal point of Calvary. This is regardless of covenant, or operations of Holy Spirit , or the gates of heaven open or not. The righteous in paradise awaiting or those going straight to heaven are righteous because of Jesus Christ, the Promised One.

What part of, “Repent and be baptized in Jesus’ name and you will receive the Holy Spirit” do you not understand?

I believe in repenting, being baptized in water and by the Holy Ghost. We just differ on when one is born again.

Then you differ with Scripture not with me. Peter did all those things after he received the flame not before.

yes he did. Just like great feats and prophesies, and preaching done by the power of the Holy Ghost in OT. I think of Mary’s Magnificat as one. Agree to power Peter received at Pentecost.

So you are saying they changed their understanding. The whole crux of it appears.

No, i am saying our understanding of what they wrote can change from their intent. It happens.

The same thing happens. The catechumens learn the Gospel and then get baptized.

Well yes it is linear, just that we differ on time frame. Peter did no tell the 3000 to enter catechumen classes , then get baptized, nor did Philip with the Ethiopian.

Abscense of evidence isn’t evidence of abscense. And there is. Remember the story of Paul in Ephesus?

again, I spoke of water baptism. Of course there is water baptism and then Holy Spirit baptism in those living pre and post Pentecost. My point is that water is not applied again for being born again after Pentecost for said folks. So when were those folks born again in your opinion, and that of CC?

they (OT saints) all were in Sheol before Christ died. They still needed baptism’s effects,

Indeed but elements (water) are not effectual outside of faith, and those in Sheol were righteous by faith, just like us ( they had their confession and works to show also), and in the same Savior, the Promised One. So, they were born again. What they did not have was something that had to happen outside of themselves, the actual Calvary opening the doors of heaven. That effected where they would spend their eternity, like us. A place does not make you righteous, so being in Paradise does not make them second class righteously speaking.

 

[mcq72]

Yeah. I’m gonna take John over you.

Oh, did not know the only way to interact with the spirit is a Pentecost Holy Ghost baptism.

I will take John also,

"And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”…John 20: 22

Having the Spirit dwell and empower one with his gifts what makes one born again.

Ok, partly may agree with that certainly after Pentecost. I guess you are saying OT saints were not born again then, that none were ever indwelt or empowered by the Holy Ghost. or born again means indwelling and gift of HS, which is only NT.

As you read my posts , totally disagree on this, but understand not all agree on this, not sure what CC says other than one is born again at baptism, which does not address OT.

The Apostles still had their minds on the things of the world.even.by the time Jesus went up.

“They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.”

“Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas,…Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,”

Well, not exactly worldly things.

Water and Spirit is what makes one born again.

And why should a Jewish leader understand your version, for water baptism was not known for Jewish regeneration purposes (cleansing yes)? “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?”

Now the baptisms going on at that time were for preparation , a cleansing, of sin. No doubt Nicodemus knew of such by the famed John and now Jesus and the apostles. it is probable He did not participate , and it was popular for the Sadducees and Pharisees to criticize such baptism ( Nic waited for it to get dark before seeing Jesus, not to be seen by others?). So I will agree that the water here should certainly convict Nicodemus of his lack here…he should believe and be baptized as many other more humble Jews did.

Never the less I believe the primary meaning of water here is being born of the flesh, in response to Nicodemus chiding about reentering His mother’s womb. You can easily disagree being in good company, but one could easily say why not just say he needed water baptism, which of course is by the Spirit. we generally do not go around saying to a new convert , a catechumen, that they need to be born of water and spirit, but we say you need to be baptized. Why did not Jesus say you need to be born of water (baptism)?

So primary meaning of water is fleshly birth, and secondary meaning is reference to baptismal water s and thirdly to the washing by the Word of God.

What is born of the flesh is flesh. What is born of the Spirit is spirit. We are to be born of water and the Spirit. No need to reenter the womb.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

that is your perception of their writings

They both say that Christ spoke of baptism in his name. Unless you cannot read or are deliberately ignoring the commentary.

I think of Mary’s Magnificat as one. Agree to power Peter received at Pentecost.

Prophesying doesn’t automatically mean having the Spirit. Otherwise Balaam would be a saint.

No, i am saying our understanding of what they wrote can change from their intent.

So you’re just repeating yourself.

Peter did no tell the 3000 to enter catechumen classes , then get baptized, nor did Philip with the Ethiopian.

Those were cathecumenate classes. The duration was shorter.

again, I spoke of water baptism

While not differentiating between John’s baptism and that of Christ.

My point is that water is not applied again for being born again after Pentecost for said folks.

Paul in Ephesus did that for those who were baptized under John, after Pentecost. And there’s no evidence of that not happening. Your point is moot.

"And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”…John 20: 22

You noticeably cut out how that is applied. They received power to pardon.

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.”

“Why do you gaze at the sky?”
“Are you going to restore Israel’s kingdom?”

And notice how they use lottery to choose a candidate for the vacancy. They don’t do that with Stephen.

Now the baptisms going on at that time were for preparation , a cleansing, of sin.

So Jesus cannot change what baptism does with the insertion of His Name.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Never the less I believe the primary meaning of water here is being born of the flesh

No. Anothen is used for both birth of water AND Spirit. The meaning is baptism.

Why did not Jesus say you need to be born of water (baptism)?

I’m sure Jesus doesn’t have to answer to you for how He should get His points across.

 

[mcq72]

hose were cathecumenate classes. The duration was shorter.

yes, exactly what I was saying, like almost asap, so believing and baptism are close together. I mean the eunich could say they were born again and then baptized the same day.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I mean the eunich could say they were born again and then baptized the same day.

For the second time, baptism is being born again, as has been the teaching of the Church from Jesus to Irenaeus and Justin Martyr to now, from East to West.

 

[mcq72]

While not differentiating between John’s baptism and that of Christ.

were they different pre pentecost? I know the commission had trinitarian formula , to be used at such time (post penetcost.)

Again, if you had John’s water baptism did you need Jesus’s water baptism, and if you had Jesus’s water baptism during his 3 years plus ministry, did you need it again after Pentecost?

Prophesying doesn’t automatically mean having the Spirit

Nothing is automatic.

Those were cathecumenate classes. The duration was shorter.

Correct. That was my point…like asap.

While not differentiating between John’s baptism and that of Christ.

I did…i said baptized with water, (as opposed to with the Spirit).

Paul in Ephesus did that for those who were baptized under John, after Pentecost.

Did what, baptize with the Holy Ghost? Yes, that and not water. In this case the laying on of hands baptized them in the Holy Ghost.

You noticeably cut out how that is applied. They received power to pardon.

Applied? By breathing i posted. You mean the context? As in fulfilling the promise:

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Are you saying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for power to forgive only?

Apparently you are also saying at this point in the gospels the apostles are not born again, even though they differ from the world and know the Holy Ghost, and dwell with Him, believe, and possibly have had a water baptism?

So Jesus cannot change what baptism does with the insertion of His Name.

Well He baptized in the Holy Ghost and He also baptized with water, like John?

For the second time, baptism is being born again, as has been the teaching of the Church from Jesus to Irenaeus and Justin Martyr to now, from East to West.

Yes, that is the teaching for many, that water baptism is regenerational (after Pentecost). Again my question is of said folks then what was the baptism that Jesus’s disciples partook of mentioned in the gospels. Was that water regenerational? If not, did they need to be water baptized again after Pentecost to be born again, including the apostles themselves?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Again, if you had John’s water baptism did you need Jesus’s water baptism, and if you had Jesus’s water baptism during his 3 years plus ministry, did you need it again after Pentecost?

The incident at Ephesus answers your question.

i said baptized with water, (as opposed to with the Spirit).

Jesus’ baptism was in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit post Pentecost.

Did what, baptize with the Holy Ghost? Yes, that and not water.

Scripture disagrees.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus,
Acts 19:5 NET

Paul immersed them again.

Again my question is of said folks then what was the baptism that Jesus’s disciples partook of mentioned in the gospels.

A question that gets answered in Acts 19.

 

[mcq72]

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus,
Acts 19:5 NET

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

Acts 19:5‭-‬6 KJV

Well i don’t see Trinitarian baptism specifically here.

So earlier i say baptism and you say no to water baptism but it is Spirit baptism of Pentecost. Now you say baptism is not of Spirit gifting but of water, but laying on of hands is Spirit gifting.

Indeed some say as you, and others not. Paul did not ask if they had been rebaptized but only if they received the Holy Ghost. They were baptized in the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

John’s baptism was prepatory for arrival of Jesus. No need to be rebaptized after his arrival, you were already prepared.Only those who did not receive any previous washing needed the baptism. Else why would you need John’s, for certainly others didn’t who only received Christ’s water baptism.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1075-were-johns-disciples-required-to-be-reimmersed

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Well i don’t see Trinitarian baptism specifically here.

That’s baptism in Christ’s name. You just don’t want to see it.

So earlier i say baptism and you say no to water baptism but it is Spirit baptism of Pentecost.

You fail to see the distinction between baptism in Jesus’ name and that of John. The Apostle Paul saw it.

No need to be rebaptized after his arrival, you were already prepared.

Paul baptized those who were in John’s bapti in Christ’s name. Acts 19 says this.