Loss of Rewards

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Julius_Caesar said:
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lanman87:
That is one way we know.
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Do we know we will persevere?

For a Catholic, we are on a pilgrimage, exiled away from our home, as Peter says.
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We do not. As taught at Council of Trent, Session VI:
Chapter 9
… no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

Can. 16. If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema.

Can. 23. If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.
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lanman87 said:
How can we make our calling and election sure if we can’t be sure? Your statement is a paradox.
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Why would we need to check to see if its sure unless for the possibility that it isn’t?
lanman87 said:
The goal of Christian living is to “Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness”.
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That’s the path. The goal is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves, Then our perfection, righteousness, justice and purpose are attained, as God desires.
lanman87 said:
However, it is not our own personal righteousness that saves us, it is the righteousness of God that we receive by faith.
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Yes, it is that righteousness that He gives us personally as we respond to Him in faith that makes us just and salvageable in His eyes.
lanman87 said:
If it is our personal righteousness and works then we are not saved by grace through faith. We are saved by our efforts to attain righteousness and we are saved based on how close we come in our efforts. That is backwards to the message of the Gospel. All of salvation is a gift of God, be it justification, sanctification, glorification. If we have to work for it then it is no longer a gift.
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It’s a cooperative effort, initiated and led by Him. A gift we can accept and act on-or not. God wants our wills involved-that’s a primary part of what makes us just. He didn’t create us to be sinners after all. That’s why all the time involved in His patiently working with and preparing man since the Fall. That’s why He didn’t just throw Adam in hell to begin with-or prevent Him from sinning to begin with. God’s purpose isn’t to just create people and place some in heaven and some into eternal torment-end of story. There’s a much grander plan behind this all.
 
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lanman87 said:
According to James (and Paul) Abraham was counted as righteous because of his belief
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Faith, not belief.
lanman87 said:
The word Justified has dual meanings. It can either be declared just or give evidence of being just.
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Which is not how James uses the word. James applies the Genesis verse when Abraham looks at the stars to when Abraham sacrifices Isaac.
 
fhansen said:
Why would we need to check to see if its sure unless for the possibility that it isn’t?
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Because it is possible to be deceived. Everyone believes that.
fhansen said:
Yes, it is that righteousness that He gives us personally as we respond to Him in faith that makes us just and salvageable in His eyes.
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It is not something He gives to us as we respond in Faith. It is something He gives when we come to faith. The moment we come to faith we receive the righteousness of God, all of it. Faith doesn’t enable us to receive it. Faith is the way we receive it.
fhansen said:
It’s a cooperative effort, initiated and led by Him.
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We are not saved by Grace through faith and me. Which is, in essence, what you are saying. The only part of “me” that scriptures say saves me is “Faith”. By faith I don’t just mean belief. I mean a changed heart and complete trust in Christ. And from that Faith (belief, trust, Spirit Indwelling, Changed Heart) comes love, obedience, repentance, works, and so on. Any claim of faith that isn’t changing a person to the image of God isn’t really faith. It might be a form of faith but it isn’t the kind of faith that saves. The kind of faith that saves produces the fruit of obedience, repentance, and love.

That is why “faith without love is dead”. I can believe in God very strongly, enough to move mountains, but if I don’t have love then my heart hasn’t been changed. I still have a heart of stone.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
James applies the Genesis verse when Abraham looks at the stars to when Abraham sacrifices Isaac.
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James is showing us the depth of Abraham’s faith. He believed God enough to sacrifice his own son out of obedience to God. It was the willingness to Sacrifice Isaac that showed Abraham’s faith. Abraham didn’t actually sacrifice Isaac. But he showed “his faith” by being willing to.
 
lanman87 said:
Agreed. I see faith as more than mere belief. Faith is trust, faith is making Jesus the King of your life. That kind of faith is obedient.
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It is even an action. Like the man who boasted he could walk the tightrope across the falls carrying a person even. Many in the crowd believed he could do it, but only a few actually let him do so, carry them over.
lanman87 said:
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fhansen:
It’s a cooperative effort, initiated and led by Him.
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We are not saved by Grace through faith and me
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If you ever see two sets of footprints in the sand in your journey with the Lord, there is cause for concern, in fear and trembling concern?
 
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Vico said:
Trent:

"If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema.
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So revelation is “special” …and infallibility has to be thrown into the mix? Too many words on both sides?

Maybe I agree. If you don’t have special revelation that you are saved then you aren’t…?
 
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mcq72 said:
If you ever see two sets of footprints in the sand in your journey with the Lord, there is cause for concern, in fear and trembling concern?
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If you don’t then He’s actually not in the game. Fear and trembling comes even as He is there, as we work things out together. So much for absolute assurance. Why don’t you guys just get on board with the gospel instead of playing with novel notions? Then we could stop this nonsense. Just sayin’.
 
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mcq72 said:
Are we not seated in heavenly places, now?
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As a great ideal, yes. It’s not something you can or do have absolute assurance of unless for the experience mentioned above. And even then, unimaginably profound as that is, there’s room for question.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
Isn’t it necessary to endure hardship to enter the kingdom?
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How much hardship do we have to endure in Christ before we can also share in His joy and victory? Is that also not set before us ,now?
 
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mcq72 said:
And isn’t it by faith that we please God?
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Faith pleases God immensely. So do other things. And we certainly know this from God’s word:
“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2
 
fhansen said:
Its a very profound-ineffably so- and rare experience they’re speaking of.(( special revelation of assuredly going to heaven).
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But we agree that the object of our faith is known by divine revelation, and as your #128 post rightly said, as well as an internal witness of the Spirit, that we are His.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
Did Paul, Peter, and the other.Apostles ask that question?
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Correct, endurance, forebearance of hardship are from birth to the end. But so are the sharing of joy and victory and glory in Christ, beginning to the end and then some.
 
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