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lanman87
Guest
Have you ever known someone who says “I quit” and then comes back and says never mind? According to that passage, that happening is impossible.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
You can’t undo a forfeit.Have you ever known someone who says “I quit” and then comes back and says never mind?
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fhansen
Guest
The focus of this thread involves a theological question regarding heavenly rewards and not the sacraments directly. But since the sacraments are actually theology “set in stone”, so to speak, providing a means for everyone from the simplest to the most sophisticated, from the illiterate to the scholar, to know, experience, and live/act out their faith in most basic ways as well as being practices that the ancient churches hold in common, I’d like to address some of them here as they’ve been brought up.
We’d all agree that our faith has to do with being translated from spiritual death to newness of life in Christ. In the Eastern Churches, Catholicism, as well as some Protestant churches this is said to occur at Baptism, the “sacrament of faith” where that faith is first formally and publicly professed in obedience to Jesus’ command and in line with the practice of the church from time immemorial.
With the Eucharist we acknowledge the truth that we must remain in Christ and He in us as we partake of Him and His sustaining nourishment. This regular practice reminds us that we must examine ourselves as per 1 Cor 11:27-28 to determine our worthiness-whether or not we’re walking in the justice that God has established and enabled in us at our new birth into His family. This hinges on the belief that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, incidentally, as the early fathers also attest while it continuously emphasizes the fact that His gift of Himself is totally free or gratuitous.
Reconciliation/confession recognizes that we can become unworthy to receive, we can excommunicate ourselves from the communion with God that our rebirth realized. Serious sin, “sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:16-17), i.e. mortal sin is sin of such grave nature that it opposes love and kills or destroys love in us.
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” Gal 6:7-9
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Rev 22:14-15
So a true change of heart and repentance is necessary if we were to return to the flesh in such a serious manner and persist in it-because our actions themselves have constituted a turning away from God. And God provides that opportunity for us in the sacrament of reconciliation where we know that His forgiveness is ever-present, always available.
Now these sacraments can be practiced mechanically and legalistically and without sincerity as virtually any part of our faith can be (except, as a sort of side note, the actual fulfillment of the greatest commandments) but that’s not how they were established to be observed.
We’d all agree that our faith has to do with being translated from spiritual death to newness of life in Christ. In the Eastern Churches, Catholicism, as well as some Protestant churches this is said to occur at Baptism, the “sacrament of faith” where that faith is first formally and publicly professed in obedience to Jesus’ command and in line with the practice of the church from time immemorial.
With the Eucharist we acknowledge the truth that we must remain in Christ and He in us as we partake of Him and His sustaining nourishment. This regular practice reminds us that we must examine ourselves as per 1 Cor 11:27-28 to determine our worthiness-whether or not we’re walking in the justice that God has established and enabled in us at our new birth into His family. This hinges on the belief that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, incidentally, as the early fathers also attest while it continuously emphasizes the fact that His gift of Himself is totally free or gratuitous.
Reconciliation/confession recognizes that we can become unworthy to receive, we can excommunicate ourselves from the communion with God that our rebirth realized. Serious sin, “sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:16-17), i.e. mortal sin is sin of such grave nature that it opposes love and kills or destroys love in us.
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” Gal 6:7-9
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Rev 22:14-15
So a true change of heart and repentance is necessary if we were to return to the flesh in such a serious manner and persist in it-because our actions themselves have constituted a turning away from God. And God provides that opportunity for us in the sacrament of reconciliation where we know that His forgiveness is ever-present, always available.
Now these sacraments can be practiced mechanically and legalistically and without sincerity as virtually any part of our faith can be (except, as a sort of side note, the actual fulfillment of the greatest commandments) but that’s not how they were established to be observed.
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fhansen
Guest
Faith does not free us simply from the consequences of sin, rather its purpose is to free us from sin, and therefore from its consequences, as it unites us with the One who can overcome sin in us. This is something the Law could not do.
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Throwawayaccount1
Guest
By having a system of justified beliefs all “good” beliefs are equally good, and relative, and The Way is null and void. The Catholic Church institutes the correct beliefs in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
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mcq72
Guest
Do you think it is a gift (a talent) to even just hear the gospel, or be born into a faith community as a child? The Jews were certainly born into a faith, and had means of entering into a covenant. Even the foolish virgins had some oil in their lamp, enough to try to go to the wedding festivity.What is the basis for interpreting certain passages like the Parable of the Talents as reffering to loss of rewards as opposed to condemnation
Christ is very clear that the religious ( those with some oil, a talent, called?) need to go one step further and be born again, chosen.
At the very least one can say if they have no works, or presume to skate along as you say, maybe they should examine if they are really " in Christ", born again, in the first place.
Understand your preference to assume all religious to be born again, just that they need to grow up, act out, walk in their faith. I would think perhaps both possibilities is the best
prudent approach (read water baptism, religion, is not necesarily effectual unto new life much less rewards).
In my mind, better Christians than me have argued this eternal security vs possibilty of losing salvation. They also argued from a position of definitely using their talents, being in Christ, born again, with works to show. They respectively also did not argue from a backslidden or do nothing faith, or from a works based salvation either.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, we know them by their fruits-and even that can be deceptive- but appearances are the main criteria by which man can judge. The main point is that we can have a strong yet guarded assurance of salvation based on God’s promises, goodness, and trustworthiness combined with the fruit that’s evident in our lives as well as an internal witness of the Spirit, even, but much of that is subjective and to claim absolute certainty is presumptuous, even arrogant, and overlooks human weaknesses, limitations, and sinfulness.
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mcq72
Guest
Yes, that is one side of the Christian argument. Yes, be on guard with anything subjective. What is not subjective are God’s promises and works, and to rest on them in uncertainty is also sin goes the other Christian argument.The main point is that we can have a strong yet guarded assurance of salvation based on God’s promises, goodness, and trustworthiness combined with the fruit that’s evident in our lives as well as an internal witness of the Spirit, even, but much of that is subjective and to claim absolute certainty is presumptuous, even arrogant, and overlooks human weaknesses, limitations, and sinfulness.
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fhansen
Guest
He’s perfectly trustworthy and true-man is the wildcard in it all.Yes, that is one side of the Christian argument. Yes, be on guard with anything subjective. What is not subjective are God’s promises and works, and to rest on them in uncertainty is also sin goes the other Christian argument.
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lanman87
Guest
Even staunch Calvinist believe that assurance can be false.
From R.C. Sproul
Probably the most prevalent doctrine of justification in modern culture is the doctrine of justification by works. Most Americans, including those who call themselves evangelicals, believe that people will get into heaven if they live a good life. They think: “I am pretty good.I do the best that I can, and haven’t done anything terribly wrong. God will be satisfied.” Christians may think: “I look forward to the day when I will be welcomed into heaven. After all, I’ve gone to church for forty years, I have been a Sunday school teacher, I’ve given money to the church and other good causes, and I’ve never murdered anyone or committed adultery.” The confidence of such people is based upon their own goodness, which is not the biblical understanding of salvation.
This false concept of salvation is pervasive in our culture, and it is as pernicious as it is pervasive, because it completely obscures and denies the true gospel. What is so damaging about it is that it gives people a false sense of security. Jesus warns us about that in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt.5–7). Near the end of the sermon, He says of the day of judgment, “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’” (Matt.7:22). They do not say “Lord” twice for emphasis but for intimacy. About fifteen times in the Bible, the personal form of address is used twice to express a deep level of personal intimacy. That is why this warning of Jesus is so terrifying. Jesus is saying that people are going to come to Him on the last day not only confessing Him as Lord but also claiming an intimate, personal relationship with Him. He is talking about people who will approach the judgment with a strong sense of assurance of their state of grace and of their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They will claim to have cast out demons in His name, to have preached, to have worked, to have been engaged in the missionary activity of the church, and to have been involved in evangelism. But Jesus says, “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness’” (v.23).
Can a person delude himself about the state of his faith? Yes. Can we think we have saving faith and not have it? Can we have it and not be sure we have it? Yes, we can really have it and not be sure that we have it. We can really not have it and be sure we do have it. That is why we have to study the Scriptures diligently and prayerfully, so that we can learn to distinguish between true assurance and false assurance.
From R.C. Sproul
Probably the most prevalent doctrine of justification in modern culture is the doctrine of justification by works. Most Americans, including those who call themselves evangelicals, believe that people will get into heaven if they live a good life. They think: “I am pretty good.I do the best that I can, and haven’t done anything terribly wrong. God will be satisfied.” Christians may think: “I look forward to the day when I will be welcomed into heaven. After all, I’ve gone to church for forty years, I have been a Sunday school teacher, I’ve given money to the church and other good causes, and I’ve never murdered anyone or committed adultery.” The confidence of such people is based upon their own goodness, which is not the biblical understanding of salvation.
This false concept of salvation is pervasive in our culture, and it is as pernicious as it is pervasive, because it completely obscures and denies the true gospel. What is so damaging about it is that it gives people a false sense of security. Jesus warns us about that in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt.5–7). Near the end of the sermon, He says of the day of judgment, “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’” (Matt.7:22). They do not say “Lord” twice for emphasis but for intimacy. About fifteen times in the Bible, the personal form of address is used twice to express a deep level of personal intimacy. That is why this warning of Jesus is so terrifying. Jesus is saying that people are going to come to Him on the last day not only confessing Him as Lord but also claiming an intimate, personal relationship with Him. He is talking about people who will approach the judgment with a strong sense of assurance of their state of grace and of their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They will claim to have cast out demons in His name, to have preached, to have worked, to have been engaged in the missionary activity of the church, and to have been involved in evangelism. But Jesus says, “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness’” (v.23).
Can a person delude himself about the state of his faith? Yes. Can we think we have saving faith and not have it? Can we have it and not be sure we have it? Yes, we can really have it and not be sure that we have it. We can really not have it and be sure we do have it. That is why we have to study the Scriptures diligently and prayerfully, so that we can learn to distinguish between true assurance and false assurance.
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fhansen
Guest
Likewise a false sense of security can come from one’s self-assessment of the level and quality of their faith-or on relying on faith, alone to save one to begin with.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Which is why you cannot have it.Even staunch Calvinist believe that assurance can be false.
Paul even says as much.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Which is what baptism is.Christ is very clear that the religious ( those with some oil, a talent, called?) need to go one step further and be born again, chosen.
Being born again and being in Christ are not the same thing. You can be born again and cut off from Christ.At the very least one can say if they have no works, or presume to skate along as you say, maybe they should examine if they are really " in Christ", born again, in the first place.
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mcq72
Guest
There goes your good news then. There goes your rest.Which is why you cannot have it.
Paul even says as much.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Nope. The good news doesn’t equal, once saved always saved. The good news is that you are reconciled to God.There goes your good news then.
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mcq72
Guest
Are you sure you are reconciled?The good news is that you are reconciled to God
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
One can be reconciled one day and cut off the next.Are you sure you are reconciled?
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lanman87
Guest
The problem with that is we aren’t save on the quality of our faith. We are saved on who our faith is in. The question is not “how strong is my faith”? It is “do I truly have faith”?Likewise a false sense of security can come from one’s self-assessment of the level and quality of their faith-or on relying on faith, alone to save one to begin with.
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mcq72
Guest
And faith is a gift from God, who does not give stones when we need bread.The problem with that is we aren’t save on the quality of our faith. We are saved on who our faith is in. The question is not “how strong is my faith”? It is “do I truly have faith”?
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fhansen
Guest
It’s still a subjective observation-and not all will be saved based on that, while thinking they are. Either way faith is meant to blossom into more than mere intellectual assent or trust-it’s the beginning of salvation, the root and foundation of justification before God. It involves the beginning of the knowledge of God, to acknowledge His existence, goodness, trustworthiness, and our absolute need for Him.
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