Loss of Rewards

[mcq72]

Offering You Your own from Your own…”

Yep

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”

“Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise–the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.” " He inhabits our praises. "

"to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before him with thanksgiving "

Lastly, the source is not me but what God has put in me, via Calvary…and yes it is mine then to give back thanksgiving and praise, right?

He accepts His own.

If I give you a gift, you then don’t give it back (through a third party mediator) and hope I accept it and pray I like it.

 

[mcq72]

It’s not just loss of rewards that unfaithful Christians face, it’s being counted with the faithless.

Well then, it is at least both possibilities that the CC and many P’s teaches. …that one can lose their salvation, or one can retain salvation but lose some rewards/ levels.

 

[mcq72]

The same Bible says that we share in Christ’s Body the same way the Jews shared in the sacrifices at the altar.

Yes, we share the one time sacrifice of Calvary…we eat at His table in memorium, which is to make the past present. Even the Jews ate in foreshadow of Calvary, as we eat in postshadow of Calvary.

Paul is merely saying watch out what you eat if it means partaking of idol worship, for even our remembrance eating is tied to Calvary, covenant making to the One True God (as with Jews) ( we eat what we did not slay, as Jews did, the slaying done by priests, except at Passover, where people could slay and eat).

 

[hope]

Interesting though, folks were just dying, literally, to create there own church, not unlike the folks creating the first church?

And folks today in the Church of today.

Be careful when judging someone who is willing to suffer loss for their convictions, loss at the hands of civil/religious authorities.
Have no idea who you are talking about. Certainly not the person I posted to.

Be careful when judging someone who is willing to suffer loss for their convictions, loss at the hands of civil/religious authorities.
To those who say that we misinterpret Matthew 16:18 do not take into consideration of the whole of the bible The New Testament is hidden in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New. As Jesus said, Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Every sacrament has its beginning in the Old and is fulfilled in the New. The Priesthood is no exception. It began with Aaron and was fulfilled by Jesus with Peter and the other Apostles. The priesthood was not to end with the Apostle’s deaths but like Aaron’s priesthood passed down so does the priesthood that Jesus establish remains to this day. All that the priesthood of Aaron did was fulfilled by the Apostles. The Priesthood continues what Jesus asked Do this in Memory of me which we call Mass

The Mass therefore is a memorial. In each of the Eucharistic Prayers, the anamnesis or memorial follows the words of consecration, whereby we call to mind the passion, death, resurrection, and ascension of the Lord. However, this memorial is not simply a recollection of past history in chronological time, but rather a liturgical proclamation of living history, of an event that continues to live and touch our lives now in that sense of kairotic time. Just as good orthodox Jews truly live the Passover event when celebrating the Passover liturgy, plunging themselves into an event which occurred about 1200 years before our Lord, we too live Christ’s saving event in celebrating the Mass. The sacrifice which Christ offered for our salvation remains an everpresent reality: “As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch is sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, No. 3). Therefore, the Catechism asserts, “The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit” (No. 1366)

. The scapegoat is fulfilled when Jesus said “whose sins you forgive will be forgiven, whose sins you retain will be retained. There is no misinterpret ion on the part of Jesus Church only by those who wish to deny Jesus’ Church the false prophets that He warned against.

 

[mcq72]

To those who say that we misinterpret Matthew 16:18 do not take into consideration of the whole of the bible

That is what we have been doing the last 20 or 30 posts, taking into consideration the whole of the bible, the Old and the New, from the Garden to Pentecost to Pastoral letters.

As Jesus said, Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus had to say that because in a sense some things were to cease. That is not debatable. What is debatable is the understanding of that.

For example my mortgage ceases when I have paid it off. Nobody says I destroyed my mortgage. It was paid in full, debt fullfilled. The mortgage achieved its purpose, giving one a home. We still have the home but continue more freely to live. You certainly do not continue to make anymore payments. They have ceased.

The need for a priesthood and continued sacrificial memorial would be like if one used a brinks truck to make all mortgage payments in particular the last check, and to memorialize that event we then co tinue to use a brinks truck to carry the cancelled check from service to service year to year. It’s a cancelled check, it’s propitiation having been served. Now the memorial with cancelled check is valuable only to the home dwellers. No need for brinks truck anymore.

That is very simplistic and does not cover all the details. But just as one can destroy the good of the old, one can carry over the bad of the old. One can chop off too much or not enough via this fulfillment. Each side has made it’s stake.

For sure all churches/ communities have a bloodless sacrifice/ remembrance. For sure all have a thanksgiving/eucharist approach. Some have or add to that a sacrificial approach. These also add the need for only a priest to administer the elements, where others with memorial approach only require a presider/president. Of course then are the various understandings of “eating” or of " doing" .

We have gone over the terms priest and presbyter and heirus priest, in NT and OT. We have gone over covenants, of Law and grace. The priesthood changes then . Most agree we no longer have levitical priests but after Melchizadek/ Christ. We are all royal ministers/ priests. We also have prebyters (from whence English gets " priest). No minister today is after Levitical heirus priest of OT, where they indeed were intermediaries with sacrificial duties. We are all ministers/ priests, of which some are presbyters, teachers, prophets etc.

We still have sacrifices per say, and carry the OT essence or desired quality of any sacrifice, a broken and contrite heart towards God. Not to mention the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving continually.

 

[mcq72]

The scapegoat is fulfilled when Jesus said “whose sins you forgive will be forgiven, whose sins you retain will be retained. There is no misinterpret ion on the part of Jesus Church only by those who wish to deny Jesus’ Church the false prophets that He warned against.

No one denies the forgiveness of sins or retention of them is at the core of the church’s ministry. Folks are either reconciled to God or stumble to perdition thru the ministry of the church.

Now it is a whole other thing to say that by tradition the apostles and immediate successors used frequent auricular confession as a standard cleansing for sins committed after baptism for every believer.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Now it is a whole other thing to say that by tradition the apostles and immediate successors used frequent auricular confession as a standard cleansing for sins committed after baptism for every believer.

It’s only a crime to those who came later.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Paul is merely saying watch out what you eat if it means partaking of idol worship, for even our remembrance eating is tied to Calvary

Not just a mere memory. It’s something we participate every Mass. Which is why he makes a big deal about eating the Body unworthily.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Some have or add to that a sacrificial approac

That has always been there.

We have an altar that those who serve in the tabernacle have no right to eat from.
Hebrews 13:10 NET

 

[mcq72]

However, this memorial is not simply a recollection of past history in chronological time, but rather a liturgical proclamation of living history, of an event that continues to live and touch our lives now in that sense of kairotic time

Pretty sure that could be said of any communion understanding. Of course Calvary touches our lives more than just as a chronos event.

Just as good orthodox Jews truly live the Passover event when celebrating the Passover liturgy, plunging themselves into an event which occurred about 1200 years before our Lord,

Interestingly the memorial instruction for the Passover were also given before the event. The head of household was the " priest " of the house, and slew the animal and sprinkled the blood. It is one of the few if not only animal sacrifice that can be done by the " lay" person, howbeit at the temple altar, with assistance of the priest. Their memorial does not insist the recreation go so far as to offer up the same lambs as the original night , but obviously a lamb none the less as a representation of such. That suffices to bring the lamb to “present” ( besides liturgy).

The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit”

Not sure an altar is necesary for a bloodless sacrifice in memorial. The desire for fruit is good but like Peter at the Transfiguration, such kairotic indulgence can get in the way of the chronos aspect of covenant aspect and work to be done. Better things are to come for He returns. Peter was corrected for his desire to stay in the present, at expense of future vision.

For sure the pastoral letters tell us to be daily filled in the Holy Ghost, to renew our spiritial minds, to put on the new man, even the armor of God. Indeed remebrance of Calvary is beneficial to those ends, but is referenced only as part of our arsenal and disciplines.

The partaking of the one loaf was to be unifying event for the assembly. Like the Corinthians, we are unfortunately still plagued with divisions on just how to do what was more plainly instructed.

 

[mcq72]

That has always been there.( sacrificial aspect)

We have an altar that those who serve in the tabernacle have no right to eat from.
Hebrews 13:10 NET

Yes but no more temple and its altar for we are the temple/ altar, where He as High Priest has entered, and sprinkled His own His blood, to make us clean.

“whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, …
that he Jesus might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, (outside the temple/altar.)”

"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. "

See the departure from kairotic to chronos?

“By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.”

That is why we call it “eucharist/ thanksgiving”. That is the fruit.

Hebrews13:11-15

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Not sure an altar is necesary for a bloodless sacrifice in memorial.

Yet for the author of Hebrews and 1st Corinthians, it was imperative that the Lord’s Supper had sacrificial tones.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Yes but no more temple and its altar

The altar is the Cross

 

[mcq72]

Yet for the author of Hebrews and 1st Corinthians, it was imperative that the Lord’s Supper had sacrificial tones.

Does not the simplicity yet depth of Calvary in memorium suffice for that explanation?

 

[mcq72]

The altar is the Cross

Exactly, and the High Priests enters the heart and washes it clean with his own blood?

Do you now only need a table with which to eat that which has been offered at the altar of Calvary by the High Priest?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Does not the simplicity yet depth of Calvary in memorium suffice for that explanation?

The Mass is Calvary made present.

Do you now only need a table with which to eat that which has been offered at the altar of Calvary by the High Priest?

When He has given us His Body and Blood and commands us to eat, sure.

 

[hope]

We share in the priesthood through are baptism It means that when we are as Mass we are not mere participants.

Priesthood: (1) Of the faithful : The priestly people of God. Christ has made of his Church a “kingdom of priests,” and gives the faithful a share in his priesthood through the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. (2) Ministerial : The ministerial priesthood received in the sacrament of holy orders differs in essence from this common priesthood of all the faithful. It has as its purpose to serve the priesthood of all the faithful by building up and guiding the Church in the name of Christ, who is head of the Body. (Cardinal Levada’s glossary)
God established a priesthood through Aaron. That priesthood prayed for the people made sacrifice etc. This equates with the ministerial priesthood. This is what Jesus fulfilled through His Apostles. The sacrifice of mere lambs was fulfilled in the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. “Do this in remembrance of me” Jesus linked this remembrance to His Cross. The this was “this is My Body” “This is my Blood” Remembered ever since in the Priesthood He established in fulfillment of the Old Testament.
Your example of the mortgage has so many problems. First you didn’t pay the mortgage. Second you forget that Jesus established the memorial. It is like your mortgage was paid off but not by you. You are asked to remember what was done for you but you tell them its over all paid for I don’t owe you a thing.
What you write does not show fulfillment but ending. The new is hidden in the old. Passover is the hidden last supper the time when Jesus give Himself to us literally under the appearance of Bread and wine.

 

[hope]

Now it is a whole other thing to say that by tradition the apostles and immediate successors used frequent auricular confession as a standard cleansing for sins committed after baptism for every believer.

Did you miss my point. The point is that this forgiveness of sin was conducted by the priest. It was more symbolic than a real forgiveness of sin but Jesus fulfilled in the new to become His forgiveness through His priest.

 

[mcq72]

First you didn’t pay the mortgage.

Not a problem for I never said I paid it. Merely said “it was paid in full”, which is a well known verbiage for Calvary’s complete propitiation.

Second you forget that Jesus established the memorial

Absolutely He did establish the memorial . Again we don’t make any more payments/ sacrifices. We don’t offer up a payment , nor even a cancelled check of last payment, and "pray it be acceptable’'. We don’t need a priest for the remembrance, for holding up last check in praise and thanksgiving, unless you say it is still a sacrifice beyond praise and thanksgiving, fruit of lips.

What you write does not show fulfillment but ending. The new is hidden in the old. Passover is the hidden last supper the time when Jesus give Himself to us literally under the appearance of Bread and wine.

kindly disagree. I show a better fulfillment, in Christ, where all sacrifice from the garden up to Calvary point and are fulfilled and end. We both agree and end to blood shedding for sin. Now we forever look back to Calvary in remembrance and thanksgiving, unabashedly a sacrifice of praise continually.

It has become foreign to me this partial fulfillment, partial continuance, partial grace and partial the Law., partial priest, partial separation/wall . The original Passover was without mediator priest, so is remembrance of Calvary, in my humble opinion.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The original Passover was without mediator priest, so is remembrance of Calvary, in my humble opinion

Calvary is present in the Eucharist. That is how it was understood.