LOST season 6

[Verbum_Caro]

Yeah, I thought of that… But it makes so much sense (at least to me) for Isabella to be MIB.

Would that mean that MIB can impersonate a dead person and be the smoke monster at the same time? Because, wasn’t the wife below deck and smokey above deck at the same time?

VC

 

[regression]

Would that mean that MIB can impersonate a dead person and be the smoke monster at the same time? Because, wasn’t the wife below deck and smokey above deck at the same time?

VC

Well, didn’t we just hear what we thought was the smoke monster above deck? I don’t think we saw the black smoke and Isabella at the same time? Could the MIB be able to “throw his voice” so to speak? I know, I’m reaching here ha ha.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Could the MIB be able to “throw his voice” so to speak? I know, I’m reaching here ha ha.

Yes, tha might be a reach! My recollection was that the ship was rocking and there was movement above decks?

If MIB can be in smokey and a dead person, what are the possibilities?

Could he have be impersonating the pilot that got killed? Just killed himself? Could he impersonate someone else while he is impersonating someone else? Two fake people? More than two?

I think a better solution would be that Jacob was involved – either he was the wife or he was a smokey.

But – the third possibility is that the wife was “real” (either a hallucination or a visitation).

That third possibility could be interesting. Isn’t there something strange about the way people are dressed when they appear? Christian Shepherd sometimes appears dressed in suit with tennis shoes (as he was in his coffin) and sometimes dressed in other clothes. He appears on island and off island (could MIB do that?).

So – is MIB all of those Christians? Or is Jacob some of them? Or are some of them “real”?

Wasn’t the wife dressed differently in the ship and later when appearing to Hurley?

VC

 

[regression]

Yes, tha might be a reach! My recollection was that the ship was rocking and there was movement above decks?

If MIB can be in smokey and a dead person, what are the possibilities?

Could he have be impersonating the pilot that got killed? Just killed himself? Could he impersonate someone else while he is impersonating someone else? Two fake people? More than two?

I think a better solution would be that Jacob was involved – either he was the wife or he was a smokey.

But – the third possibility is that the wife was “real” (either a hallucination or a visitation).

That third possibility could be interesting. Isn’t there something strange about the way people are dressed when they appear? Christian Shepherd sometimes appears dressed in suit with tennis shoes (as he was in his coffin) and sometimes dressed in other clothes. He appears on island and off island (could MIB do that?).

So – is MIB all of those Christians? Or is Jacob some of them? Or are some of them “real”?

Wasn’t the wife dressed differently in the ship and later when appearing to Hurley?

VC

Yeah, mostly likely it is two different people… So much for my theory ha ha. I am so glad I recently got a DVR, now I can go back and watch again.

 

[Sina]

If it was MIB then you all better watch out. MIB can either be in two places at once (half smoke and half a dead person) or Jacob can be smoke too.

Or did I miss something?
VC

I thought it was explained by Jacob? When “Isabella” ran outside, and we heard something atop the Black Rock, it was Jacob rustling around. I think “Isabella” just pretended to get captured… but really it was just MIB running off… I dunno… that is what I think.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I thought it was explained by Jacob? When “Isabella” ran outside, and we heard something atop the Black Rock, it was Jacob rustling around. I think “Isabella” just pretended to get captured… but really it was just MIB running off… I dunno… that is what I think.

Wait, wasn’t the explanation given by MIB? That is was Jacob up there and MIB showed up and saw the wife get taken by Jacob?

The thing is SOMEBODY was up there (either Jacob or MIB, or both) while the wife was in the ship – that is the mystery.

VC

 

[wjp984]

I think it also explains why Whitmore has an attachment to the island. His great great grandfather or someone was killed by the smoke monster and Whitmore wants to seek revenge. It probably has been talked about for generations in his family.

Also, if smokey didn’t kill the officers then that means Jacob did.

 

[regression]

Didn’t Jacob not know if Richard talked with MIB? He asked who gave him the dagger. If Jacob became Isabella, then he would know the smoke monster (MIB) was outside the ship and must have talked to Richard???

 

[Maeglin]

On face value, its very obvious that Jacob is “good” and MIB is “bad”. I think fans are afraid of believing the obvious because this is the kind of show where the writers have fun pulling the rug out from under us.

-MIB is a liar.
-We’ve never seen Jacob lie.
-MIB is violent.
-Jacob use violence in self defense, and even then allowed himself to die.
-MIB has the power to impersonate
-Jacob has the power to heal
-MIB is dark
-Jacob is light
-MIB is destiny
-Jacob is free-will

The only real argument for Jacob being evil, is that he ship wrecks people on the island (often to their death) and uses people to attempt to prove to MIB that people can be fundamentally good at heart. Possibly this is for a higher purpose that involves salvation (maybe of MIB) or defense of the world. We don’t know that yet.

Possibly the writer’s will go for ambiguity. Perhaps these two are opposites, and neither of them is particularly good or evil except in relation to each other. Outsiders to the conflict might interpret Jacob’s actions as evil and MIB’s actions as self-defense in the pursuit of liberty. But I still think that this would be a cheat and is not as compelling as a good vs evil conflict with the survival/salvation of the world at stake.

 

[Maeglin]

I think it also explains why Whitmore has an attachment to the island. His great great grandfather or someone was killed by the smoke monster and Whitmore wants to seek revenge. It probably has been talked about for generations in his family.

Also, if smokey didn’t kill the officers then that means Jacob did.

Your comment reminds me that Magnus Hanso owned the slave ship that was transporting Richard. Centuries later, Widmore bought the ship’s log in an auction; possibly in an attempt to find the Island. Magnus’ great-great grandson Alvar Hanso probably used the diary to initially find the island and start the Dharma Initiative.

I really want to see the writers connect the dots from Magnus Hanso to Alvar Hanso (financial founder of the Dharma Initiative). I’m hoping they will touch on the ultimate purpose of the DI (to prevent the end of the world) and the numbers before the show ends. I know the AR dealt with this, but I want to see it as part of the show’s canon since it would be an epic storyline that folds nicely into Jacob and MIB’s conflict.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Didn’t Jacob not know if Richard talked with MIB?

Jacob *said *he didn’t know.

regression:

He asked who gave him the dagger.

What were the options, do you think? One of his shipmates? Seems like a strange question, doesn’t it?

regression:

If Jacob became Isabella, then he would know the smoke monster (MIB) was outside the ship and must have talked to Richard???

Right, he sure would. So why would he ask Richard all those quetions he already would know the answer to?

 

[regression]

Right, he sure would. So why would he ask Richard all those quetions he already would know the answer to?

Unless Jacob is playing Richard, which is possible. I can run around in circles thinking about this ha ha.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Well here’s one that will really bake your noodle:

So Jake brings the ship to the island. It crashes, kills a bunch of people (flight 815 anyone?) and eventually only poor Richard is left alive.

So what does Jake do? Kind of abandons him to die, doesn’t he? (But wait, wait! Jacob is all about free-will, he’s just giving Richard a chance to . . . " what exactly? Choose to dig himself out with a nail? Die with dignity?)

Finally it’s MIB who frees him. What if MIB didn’t free him? Do you think Jacob would have come along and let him go? Sorry for the dehydration and the terror! No hard feelings! How about being my representative?

VC

 

[_L]

Well here’s one that will really bake your noodle:

So Jake brings the ship to the island. It crashes, kills a bunch of people (flight 815 anyone?) and eventually only poor Richard is left alive.

So what does Jake do? Kind of abandons him to die, doesn’t he? (But wait, wait! Jacob is all about free-will, he’s just giving Richard a chance to . . . " what exactly? Choose to dig himself out with a nail? Die with dignity?)

Finally it’s MIB who frees him. What if MIB didn’t free him? Do you think Jacob would have come along and let him go? Sorry for the dehydration and the terror! No hard feelings! How about being my representative?

VC

Considering Richard’s alternatives, he got the better end of the deal with jacob. First he avoids being executed, then he escaped a life as a slave, and now he is immortal, sounds like a pretty positive turn of events to me.

The question is, did jacob bring the ship there knowing richard was on it, or was the crew of the black rock supposed to be another oceanic flight 815, testing them to see if they live good lives without turning to evil. by jacob’s demeanor it would seem that he wasn’t looking for a representative to the people that he brings to the island until richard brought up the point that if he doesn’t intervene the man in black inevitably will.

The MIB kind of reminds me of the devil in this instance, MIB is trapped on the island and has no power of his own to escape and to get back at jacob he tries to ruin the lives of the people Jacob brings to the island by killing them, tempting them, and inciting them to do evil. likewise the devil is condemned to hell, and to “get back” at God he tries to tempt us and prevent as many people as possible from reaching Heaven, even though it wont help him one bit.

This game MIB and jacob have going is like chess, Jacob may lose most of his pieces (the people he brings to the island) but in the end there is no way MIB can get Jacob in check mate, it ends a stalemate every single time, and as jacob says “it only ends once, anything that happens before that is just progress”

As far as we know, Jacob has never lied, MIB on the other hand lies all the time, telling claire that aaron is being kept by the others, telling richard he was in hell and that jacob was the devil, telling ben they were at the hydra station, when they werent, my guess is MIB wanted ben dead, because if he had killed ilana and went to the hydra guess who would be waiting for him…archenemy charles widmore!

and I dont think MIB can be in two places at the same time, keep in mind we never actually saw the smoke monster and isabella on the screen at the same time, we just heard the noise of the monster. Weve learned in the past few episodes that MIB has “jedi like” abilities, such as when he unlocked bens shackle just by willing it. perhaps he can induce hallucinations through sight and hearing while at the same time physically being elsewhere but in the same vicinity.

 

[thomasf]

I think MIB was Isabella. MIB can take the form of other dead people, as we’ve seen already with Christian.

As of right now, though, MIB is locked into Locke. I’ve seen the writers say that a couple of times.

I like the idea of the gates of Hell and Jacob is an angel. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Very good! A spirited defense of Jacob!

But. . . I think you’ll be disappointed in the end.

Seriously, though:

Good point about Jedi Master Obiwan Smokobi. I had forgotten about the shackles. He could have been rocking the ship and impersonating Richard’s wife at the same time without being in two different places.

But, uh, all that about Jacob doing Richard a good turn? The fact that the Black Rock crashed and Jacob didn’t even try to help any of the survivors after being the one who brought the ship is a little problematic. I think it is wise for you to ask if Black Rock is like flight 815. They are exactly the same. No matter what sort of test/challenge/ teaching moment Jacob has in mind. . . it seems like he arranged for a plane to crash! C-r-a-s-h. On a crazy island full of polar bears and angry smoke monsters and a bunch of crazy people who committed mass murder. Nice.

MIB at least lied to Claire to keep her going. About getting Ben to go the Hydra. . . why not just let Ilana put him in the grave as intended? At least he saved Ben from Illana. And maybe, in order to stop Jacob from plucking people out of their lives and crash them on the island, it was a good idea to lie to Richard to get him to kill Jacob. That would have avoided anymore of Jacobs “experiments”. But, of course, none of this means MIB isn’t evil.

VC

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Figured last night’s episode would have tongues wagging…

I would suspicious of anyone “trying” to get out of Hell because they can’t.

They’re in Hell for a reason.

The person has rejected God and put themselves in Hell.

Hell is eternal and final. Apparently this “Island” is not because (apparently) people can get off the “Island”. So is it Hell?

Jacob claims the “Island” is Hell. Jacob seems to able to leave the “Island” at will. Who in Hell can “leave” Hell – if only temporarily? Does Jacob try to get off the “Island”? He hasn’t yet. Does Jacob know he can’t leave? Hmmmmm…

Who is telling the Truth?

It has been reported that the creators have stated that the “Island” is not Purgatory.

It could be that we’re all wrong.

Perhaps the entire series encompasses an allusion to Final Judgment which is being played out. After the series plays out, some go to Hell. Some go to Heaven.

Maybe that’s the purpose of “back stories” and Jacob seeing into the past – it’s an accounting of people’s sins or what good the people have done.

 

[YinYangMom]

Isabella…Jack’s father keeps coming back so I’m not surprised Isabella appeared to Richard. Jack’s father was brought to the island though. How Isabella got there is a mystery. I found it odd that when she appeared with Hurley she was in modern clothes.

The people the smoke takes out don’t reappear so that leads me to believe the smoke did not take Isabella. I think Jacob rescued her from the smoke. She screamed at the sight of the smoke, but Jake swoops in to take her. MIB twists the truth (master manipulator) to make it appear Jake took her to do harm. But Jake allows Jack’s dad to reappear, and apparently Isabella was able to appear to Hurley, why did he tell Richard he couldn’t bring Isabella back? Maybe he’s just saying he can’t bring them to life but he can enable them to become visible???

Jake asking Richard those questions…Jake wants the humans to choose to do good without direction. If he knew the answers it makes sense he’d pose the questions so that Richard could reach the proper conclusions on his own. I don’t buy for a second that Jake didn’t know that by his not influencing people it left them vulnerable to MIB. I think he’s not ‘able’ to tell people what to do, not that he ‘chooses’ not to tell them what to do, but maybe he doesn’t want MIB to know he has that limitation??

Seems Jake leaves the island whenever he wants. He touched each survivor at least once during their lifetimes…does he travel through that light house?

The island can’t be hell because we have a couple of people who’ve left it - Whitmore, Walt, his son, what about the time traveler’s mom? Made sense to me that it’s the place where evil is contained, with Jacob as the guardian of that place. Evil still exists outside the island, though, so it seems a bit like Pandora’s box, except at some point Pandora was put back into the box, but only after she did enough damage that was passed onto mankind for future generations. Mankind perpetuates the evil released at an earlier age, while true evil is now contained on the island.

What I don’t get is the alternate reality scenes we’ve been seeing, where Jack has a son, and all the other people on the island are living different lives than we were introduced to in the beginning.

I also don’t get Jacob being allowed to choose certain people for the opportunity to take his place. That he’s allowed to arrange for the ship and plane to crash, killing many innocents while the chosen survive only to become part of the game Jake and Esau are playing. It’s all about Jake proving to Esau that humanity is not corrupt from the get go, but who cares if Esau is wrong about that? What matters is Esau doesn’t get off the island. If Esau suddenly concedes Jacob is right, he can’t stop being what he is - evil - and he’ll still remain stuck on the island so what’s the point?

 

[_L]

But, uh, all that about Jacob doing Richard a good turn? The fact that the Black Rock crashed and Jacob didn’t even try to help any of the survivors after being the one who brought the ship is a little problematic.

Well jacob did said it was all meaningless if he had to intervene he wanted people to help themselves. I think the reason behind Jacob’s ideology is explained subliminally, most clearly i think in a conversation between jack and dogan in “lighthouse” the convo went like this:

Dogan: I was afraid you had left
Jack: is leaving an option?
Dogan: everything is an option, but I would have to stop you.

Jacob isn’t forcing anyone to do anything but he is pushing them in a certain direction and that direction is toward the island. like he says to jack in the season 5 finale at the vending machine concerning the candy bar “all it needed was a little push” That phrase applies to everyone destined to go to the island. Jacob presses on the idea of free will, meaning he isnt going to force anyone to do anything, but he will give them a push in the right direction.

The people can exercise their free will all they want, but jacob will exercise his as well, and it involves the people he wants on the island.

like dogan says, jack can use his free will and try and leave, but dogan will use his free will to stop him if he tries.

I think it is wise for you to ask if Black Rock is like flight 815. They are exactly the same. No matter what sort of test/challenge/ teaching moment Jacob has in mind. . . it seems like he arranged for a plane to crash! C-r-a-s-h. On a crazy island full of polar bears and angry smoke monsters and a bunch of crazy people who committed mass murder. Nice.

and in the process, healed locke’s spine and broken spirit, cured rose of her cancer, healed the broken marriage between sun and jin, turned sawyer into a good man, got hurley past his fear of being cursed, helped ecko come to peace with causing the death of his brother, etc etc. coming to the island gave them all a second chance, like jacob said in this past episode “…and when they get here, their past doesnt matter”

MIB at least lied to Claire to keep her going. About getting Ben to go the Hydra. . . why not just let Ilana put him in the grave as intended? At least he saved Ben from Illana.

Because MIB wants everyone either off of the island or dead. If ben had gone thru with what MIb wanted he would have shot ilana, headed to the hydra and would likely have been killed by widmore. 2 birds, 1 stone.

And maybe, in order to stop Jacob from plucking people out of their lives and crash them on the island, it was a good idea to lie to Richard to get him to kill Jacob. That would have avoided anymore of Jacobs “experiments”. But, of course, none of this means MIB isn’t evil.

VC

imo MIB isnt in to helping people for the sake of helping them. he is selfish, even unlocking richard was based on the precondition that richard would do anything he said. He would have kept his word tho, im thinking he would have killed richard after jacob was dead. Richard would see his wife again when they were reunited in death.

 

[_L]

and one more thing, did anyone else read more into the final scene than was shown?

Jacob gives MIB the bottle of wine, and its as if MIB was familiar with the analogy because he too turned the bottle upside down showing how the evil was trying to get out. But curiously MIB doesn’t pull the cork out, he smashes the bottle itself which also releases the wine. is this perhaps symbolic of his grand plan? he is going to find an unconventional method to achieve his goal? Perhaps he is not simply going to leave the island, but destroy it to ensure he is never imprisoned again, reminiscent of the sunken island perhaps?