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montanaman
Guest
By the way–pride is a sin, so I guess we’ll have to start a new volume of reasons why, according to your theology, you don’t know God.
(Luke 6:46) "Why do you call me, 'Lord,Lord' and not do what I say?"
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Nicene
Guest
Lets take for example your arguement for pacifism:
James 4:17 To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin.
James certainly disagrees with you. By knowing that (rape or murder for example) is wrong, and failing to intervene, even to the point of giving up your own life, you are guilty of committing that sin. Knowing the right thing to do–stop it–and failing to do it, for you it is sin.
Employing your same style, here, word for word in sacred scripture:
*Jude 8: Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones.
Jud 17: But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18: they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19: It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
Mt 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mt 24:24: For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.2: And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3: And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
1 John 4:1: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
*
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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trogiah
Guest
What you are saying makes a measure of sense. I agree that there are times when a person must listen to the voice of Jesus in spite of what a priest or sister may be saying rather than because of what they are saying. That is not how it should be but sometimes that is how it is.
I am not sure exactly what you have said that seems to have bothered so many people, it does seem like you are implying that anyone who observes the rules of the Church is somehow off base. As recently observed on another thread, it is not the observation of the little rules that is the problem. It is the failure to observe the big ones that gets a person in trouble - whether they call themselves Catholic or not.
peace
Jim
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Aaron_I
Guest
2 Cor 11:3-4,14 “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere [and pure] commitment to Christ. For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough. And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.”
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RobNY
Guest
You’ve seen Jesus, visually?
Note that my objections to all of us hearing Jesus, audibly, in the sense you mean, still remain in this topic. (That is, remain unanswered. I have no want to reproduce them here, argue with them or please stop bringing this interpretation of yours up.)
And while this is probably irrelevant, so do my objections to your understanding of the priesthood of all believers.
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NotWorthy
Guest
OK, I’ll try it again.
Notworthy
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Pax
Guest
Thank you once again for demonstrating how shallow your responses are. Let’s try this two ways. First accept the post I made as if I assume that you must be Roman Catholic to be part of the body of Christ even if that is not my intention or belief. Once you’ve done this, then answer my question in depth. Then try it a second way. Assume that a person doesn’t have to be Roman Catholic to be a member of the body of Christ and still answer the question in depth. Combine your answer to address both “assumptions” if you so desire.
Your quote from Mark does not answer the question I posed. Only the “apostles” were sent to cast out demons[see Matt 10:5]. This is why the apostles questioned Jesus about the man casting out demons. Please note that there isn’t any mention of the man bearing false testimony or erroneous teachings. He apparently is a believer in Jesus and apparently has the gift of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons. If he was a “false” teacher Jesus probably would have stood behing the rebuke of the apostles. Moreover, Jesus even says that the man is not against them. Therefore it is reasonable to believe that the man wasn’t guilty of false teachings. Your quote does nothing to support your position and doesn’t answer my questions.
So please try going back to my post and answer the question. How is it, after reading all of the scriptures I gave you including John Chapter 17, that what you are doing is helping to unite you to the body of Christ which is His Church? Please explain how your claims and doings are bringing about the unity that Jesus describes in John 17. And please remember that Jesus prays that the unity of the believers will be the same as that which He shares the Father.
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Pax
Guest
We have been all over this and I will address it here once again. My purpose will be two fold. One reason is to reiterate the truth in an effort to persuade you. The other will be to let others reading this thread express their thoughts. At the end of it let’s see if your interpretation receives any support.
When I addressed this issue to you once before I made reference to a Protestant Bible Commentary and I will do so again. In Morris Bible Book Synopsis it says this about 1 John 3.
“Can one who is “born of God” commit sin? Answer: certainly! However, it must NOT be habitual (1Jn 3:6, with the Greek present tense). If it is, then that sinner is in league with the Devil (1Jn 3:8)! The true Christian does not PRACTICE that kind of life (1Jn 3:9), though, at times, he or she may occasionally slip and fall.”
Another Protestant reference (Henry’s Concise Commentary) says, “Every instance of this selfishness must weaken the evidences of a man’s conversion; when habitual and allowed, it must decide against him. If conscience condemn us in known sin, or the neglect of known duty, God does so too.”
The passage you refer to is talking about leading a sinful life. It is not refering to occassional sin. This is made clear above and is reinforced by John’s other remarks. John says in the same epistle that “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness”[see 1 John 1:8-9].
In 1 John 2:1-2 he also tells us this:
"MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Either you misunderstand the epistle of John or the apostle is somehow contradicting himself. Somehow I think that you are misunderstanding John and I do not believe that he contradicts himself.
If anyone supports your position as opposed to what is typically stated in Christian Commentaries and what seems to be easily perceived from the quotes above then I would like to hear their explanations. Thus far none of your explanations have undone what otherwise appears obvious.
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Giver
Guest
Pax, No matter who tells you something about God you are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
In (I John) he first tells people that they are to break from sin, but if they haven’t as of yet then he tell them they have (1 John 2:1)”I am writing this, my children, to stop you sinning; but if anyone should sin, we have our advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, who is just; he is the sacrifice that takes our sins away, and not only ours, but the whole world’s.”
John goes on to tell us that once a person gets to know God they don’t sin. Paul talks about baby Christians needing milk not real food, and John started his letter with my children, well until a person grow up he or she will need an advocate.
If I were looking to convince anyone that I’m right about sin, I would be a fool. The church has lost this teaching a long time ago, and to expect a protestant to understand would be even more of a wonder. This forum isn’t an opinion poll, my purpose is to give a word, and then hopefully some people will take what I say to Jesus, because he is the only one who can convince us of the truth.
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Nicene
Guest
1 John 1:8: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10: If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So John was wrong? Glad we cleared that up.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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montanaman
Guest
Heretics have been using that one since the time of the gnostics. They and their “churches” are now dust. Long after you’re dust, they’ll still be saying it, and the Church will still be spreading the same Gospel it has been spreading since the very beginning.
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Giver
Guest
Nicene said:
(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.
We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
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Giver
Guest
Heretic N. One holding controversial opinions, esp. contrary to the accepted dogma of Christianity.
Now if what I was sharing was accepted we wouldn’t be having this discussion would we? Who was it that discovered that the earth revolved around the Sun? Didn’t the Catholic Church say he was a heretic? Just because someone disagrees with the Church doesn’t make him or her wrong, or bad.
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montanaman
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I’m not saying you’re bad, but I am saying you’re wrong. You ARE a fraud, and no amount of sophistry is going to change that.
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Unexpected_Dawn
Guest
Forgive me, I just have to jump in here for a sec.
If you’re referring to Galileo Galilei, the story is not so simple as the big, bad, unenlightened Church punishing great thinkers as heretics and crushing the progress of science. As I recall the story, Galileo’s theory was that the sun is fixed and everything revolves around it. This was just a theory (and, it so happens, a flawed one, since the sun is not fixed and does itself revolve around the center of our galaxy, which itself is in constant motion). Now most of the scientists of the day were starting to explore heliocentricity, but most of them were finding problems with it. Galileo apparently didn’t give a hoot. He said that not only was his theory correct, but that everyone else was wrong–the other scientists and their theories, and the Church and its theology. Wrong, wrong, wrong, end of story! Needless to say it got him into trouble! He was a trouble-maker!
Also, on a personal note, I am moved by your story of your child’s miraculous healing, and I am also sorry for whatever troubles you’ve experienced (I’ve been dealing with my own for a while–so believe me, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family). But I also want to assure everyone that Catholics receive miracles too, and without any condition that they must change their lives or their beliefs. I can also say that the intercession of saints and saints-to-be can bring these miracles about.
My beloved father was in dire need of surgery on his heart. His vessels were clogged, and the stints placed there previously were wearing out. The x-rays showed all of this. After an already long battle with heart disease and other problems, my father was feeling very anxious and his faith was hanging by a thread. As he lay unable to sleep, a memory came to him of seeing Mother Teresa at an airport one time. He remembered how peaceful she appeared. He asked the Lord and Mother Teresa (recently deceased) to help him find peace too. He was able to fall asleep.
The following morning, he was being prepped for surgery, and having more images of his heart taken. The imaging tech came in and took the doctor aside. There was some excitement, and more images taken, and the result was the same—there was ZERO blockage of my dad’s vessels, and the stints were in perfect shape. That was several years ago, and Dad’s heart is still in great shape.
The doctor and the technician said themselves that it could only be a miracle. My dad knew that already, of course, and he truly and deeply felt that Mother Teresa had had a hand in it. OK, I’m finished with the soapbox. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Pax
Guest
Your simplistic reference to Galileo clearly shows that you don’t know what you are talking about. Moreover, it is merely a dodge to avoid the point at hand. That point being your misunderstanding of 1 John.
When John says, “I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” he is not excluding himself. He uses the term “we”. I will agree that a mature Christian will not remain in “habitual” sin. I agree that a mature Christian will not live a “sinful life style.” Your problem is that you refuse to acknowlede John’s use of the Greek present tense in 1 John 3:6. This usage makes the passage mean continuous, habitual, or as a way of life. This is made clear by John preceding the statement with the passage quoted above from 1 John 2:1.
You are right in that this is not an opinion poll, but you are wrong about Protestants when it comes to biblical exegesis on this set of verses. You say that you are right and that the Church lost this teaching a long time ago. Once again, you’ve made an intellectual and historical blunder in making that remark. You need to prove and demonstrate that the Church has at sometime in the past held your interpretation and you must show when the teaching was lost.
Your view is not the teaching of the early church and a reading of the early church fathers will show that they did not teach what you are saying and no one else has until you arrived. Go figure!
Now if you can prove otherwise, then do so.
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montanaman
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Giver–I’m interested to hear what “Jesus” has been telling you about this discussion. Anything?
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
II Peter 1:9b “and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.”
Giver, Where does it say we are cleansed from all our current and all our future sins?
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Daniel_Marsh
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No, many of us just feel amused, and bored. You make statements contray to scripture, and when you are corrected with scripture, you simply deny that scripture says what it plainly says.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Giver, I can’t think of anyone who has NOT shown you the errors of your claims. You simply ignore truth when you see it.
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