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lilypadrees
Guest
Catholics have the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
Lutherans do not.
Lutherans do not.
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brian_custer
Guest
no, sir; transubstantiation is based on valid ordination , which, unfortunately our Lutheran brothers do not have
“Pastor Bill” cannot consecrate the bread & wine; however “Father Bill” can…
“Pastor Bill” cannot consecrate the bread & wine; however “Father Bill” can…
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The Lutherans’ claim of “Real Presence” is false because, as brian said, their priests are not validly ordained and lack the necessary power.
Same for any other non-Catholic church claiming “Real Presence” in their bread and wine, or crackers and grape juice, or whatever they use.
And yes, it matters, because Real Presence for me is THE main reason you go to Catholic Mass, and don’t just drop in at a Lutheran (or other Protestant or non-denominational) Christian service. Jesus said, “Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, I’ll be there” which means that he is likely present in spirit at any Christian prayer gathering. But only the Catholics have His Real Presence by way of the Transubstantiation.
Same for any other non-Catholic church claiming “Real Presence” in their bread and wine, or crackers and grape juice, or whatever they use.
And yes, it matters, because Real Presence for me is THE main reason you go to Catholic Mass, and don’t just drop in at a Lutheran (or other Protestant or non-denominational) Christian service. Jesus said, “Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, I’ll be there” which means that he is likely present in spirit at any Christian prayer gathering. But only the Catholics have His Real Presence by way of the Transubstantiation.
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MichaelP3
Guest
Not sure I was disagreeing with what you just said on the Catholic position Sir.
Read on and you will see it was a question as to the poster’s post on faith. I know it’s not a reason hence my question.
And my reply later on…
Read on and you will see it was a question as to the poster’s post on faith. I know it’s not a reason hence my question.
And my reply later on…
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Dhc8_Type
Guest
My dad is not a priest and finds it offensive when called one. He is pastor or reverend. Or clergy for general proposes. And now you’ve just contradicted yourself if our lord and savior is present when two or three or more are gathered in his name he says he is present how does Lutheran holy communion not count.
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brian_custer
Guest
because pastor reverend is not validly ordained.
could you or i consecrate the bread & wine, as common laity?
i think not…
could you or i consecrate the bread & wine, as common laity?
i think not…
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brian_custer
Guest
OK guy, i think i am done here…
the anti-catholics bigots are posting now
the anti-catholics bigots are posting now
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dann
Guest
Yes you are right…
If Lutheran s are worshiping . meir . bread and wine.
Yes that does describe religious deception.
If Lutheran s are worshiping . meir . bread and wine.
Yes that does describe religious deception.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Erm… no. the Catholic position requires real belief. If you take the Eucharist without believing it to be the body and blood of Christ, then you are taking sin unto yourself. That constitutes taking it unworthily.
The fact of something’s correctness does not guarantee conversion. Free will allows people to make the wrong choice.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Does it matter? Does Jesus Christ matter?
Yes, very much.
Lutheranism is a very unique and self-centered theology. It is the product of a troubled man. It radically re-invented Christianity in a form never seen before, never taught before. He essentially decided each and every doctrine himself, sometimes waking in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, asking, “Am I alone correct?” And, of course the answer was “Yes.” His thoughts on the Eucharist are also radical, and make zero sense to me. In rejecting nearly all of the Sacraments, you or I or an atheist could confect the “Eucharist” for him. There is no divine authority behind any of his unique doctrines, and that is a huge red flag. Are you willing to bet your eternity on the opinions of a very troubled European man?
Not saying anything about Lutherans - only about the man.
Yes, very much.
Lutheranism is a very unique and self-centered theology. It is the product of a troubled man. It radically re-invented Christianity in a form never seen before, never taught before. He essentially decided each and every doctrine himself, sometimes waking in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, asking, “Am I alone correct?” And, of course the answer was “Yes.” His thoughts on the Eucharist are also radical, and make zero sense to me. In rejecting nearly all of the Sacraments, you or I or an atheist could confect the “Eucharist” for him. There is no divine authority behind any of his unique doctrines, and that is a huge red flag. Are you willing to bet your eternity on the opinions of a very troubled European man?
Not saying anything about Lutherans - only about the man.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I obviously had no intention of being “offensive” to your father, as the word “priest” is neither offensive to Catholics, nor is it offensive in general. If Lutherans prefer some different word, I would suggest you pointing this out in a mature manner and perhaps explaining the rationale. This is after all Catholic Answers, not Lutheran Answers. I know next to nothing about Lutheran preferences, and having someone fly into a “you just insulted my dad” tizzy doesn’t encourage me to spend any time learning. It encourages me to just avoid Lutherans.
As for contradicting myself, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I think it was quite clear.
As for contradicting myself, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I think it was quite clear.
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dann
Guest
Yes . 1 cor. 11:27-34. Does describes a a potluck fellowship. That saint Paul was telling them that the church was doing it wrong.
Depending on the commentary you read. And what you are taught. Determines what you will believe.
Sharing the lords communion can be done wrong. according to the situation .as said t Paul wrote. But they were not in a catholic Mass situation. As it had not been invented yet.
The different commentaries reveil much of what was happening
Depending on the commentary you read. And what you are taught. Determines what you will believe.
Sharing the lords communion can be done wrong. according to the situation .as said t Paul wrote. But they were not in a catholic Mass situation. As it had not been invented yet.
The different commentaries reveil much of what was happening
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
The question of which commentary you read and what you personally believe doesn’t impact what is actually true.
As for not being in a “Catholic mass” situation, well, that is patently false. The trappings may be different (clothing, specific formulation of prayers, etc.) but they are clearly gathering to celebrate the Lord’s Supper, the Eucharist, which as always been the focus of the Catholic Mass.
To say that this is not a Catholic Mass situation is like claiming black rose isn’t a rose because it isn’t red… They are, at their core, the same thing, they just look a little different. Just because the early masses lacked the buildings and the specific order of things doesn’t change what it was at its core.
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brian_custer
Guest
except for validly ordained priests…
many flowers look like roses, but they are not
many flowers look like roses, but they are not
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
???
What is this in reference to?
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I see your edit.
There are plenty of people who wear the guise of an ordained priest who aren’t one. There are also Lutheran pastors who were once Catholic priests. Their’s is a more complicated situation. If they still believe that the Eucharist is the Transubstantiated body and blood of Christ then they are confecting the Eucharist, even if they have abandoned the True faith. If, however, they reject Transubstantiation in favor of consubstantiatioin, then they are no longer confecting the Eucharist because they no longer intend what the Eucharist requires.
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brian_custer
Guest
i don’t want to post in this thread anymore
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Elf01
Guest
My understanding is that it does not depend on belief.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Well, hopefully those guys at least don’t get all uptight when someone calls them a “priest”.
About what percentage of Catholic priests convert over to being Lutheran clergy persons? Doesn’t seem like it would be happening in droves nowadays.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
I have no idea how many, if any, convert nowadays.
I thought that intent was a necessity, and the intent can only exist when the person understands what the Eucharist is. I’m pretty sure that this corruption of the Lutheran understanding of the true nature of the Eucharist has a lot to do with why they lost the ability to validly ordain new priests. Originally they were sort of like the Orthodox communities, whose bishops still retain Apostolic succession. I was just applying that concept to individual cases, though I may be wrong.
This CA response would seem to support your position though. I may be mistaken on this point.
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PJH_74
Guest
Geezz people. There are as posted earlier, official statements of faith on communion have been published recently by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches. We are Christian brothers and sisters. Aside from the Anglicans, the Lutherans are probably the second closest in theology to the Catholic Church. You may quibble about succession or validity, but what is the greater threat, Christians who have some differences in faith or atheism?
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