Lying and use of fake papers during war

[Infiltrator]

All of the above mentioned professions take an oath of office or swear an oath of duty. The Church holds oaths of office or duty (sworn to before God) to be equally binding and obligatory.

It does not matter if you agree or disagree because it is God’s word. No matter how much you disagree with God does not mean he will change his mind. It simply means you will need to understand during your time in purgatory.

The church does hold that oaths of office or duty (sworn to before God) to be equally binding and obligatory however that does not mean that they can override a direct commandment from God. If you swear to protect, you still cannot kill to do it. If you swear to serve you still cannot lie to do it. It is that simple. God law always comes first.

 

[Infiltrator]

The Catholic Church has designated the following as patron saints of police officers:

1. 
   *]Police officers Michael the Archangel
   *]Police, Italian Mary, Faithful Virgin
   *]Police, Spanish Our Lady of the Pillar
   *]Police, Spanish, armed The Guardian Angels
   *]Police, local, municipal Sebastian
   
   So therefore, one could logically follow that one can be a Catholic and a police officer, since the Church herself has designated patron saints for them!

1. 
   and if one did logically follow that through, they would have to answer for it to God…

 

[Infiltrator]

The Catholic Church definitely feels this way. That is the problem. The Catholic Church for too long now has been way to “accepting” of people and only teaching Gods love, not the other side, not the fact that there are obligations. People have totally forgotten the basics and sin because of it.

 

[Cristiano]

Yes. That is correct. They cannot shoot the person and take them down as you put it. That would be taking a life. They can clear the area, surround the person. There are other ways of stopping someone that are non-lethal.

I think that you are wrong here. Usually policeman do not shoot to kill people and they should not. Shooting is a manner to stop a clear and present danger and it might entail loss of life; however the intention is not to kill but to hinder an action. Is a doctor responsible of murder if the patient dies during a non life saving surgery considering that he knew that there was the risk of loss of life?

 

[He_Man]

Respectfully, do you come to these conclusions on your own understanding or do you believe that the Church teaches that Soldiers and Police Officers cannot be Catholics (at least in good standing)?

Someone needs to tell the Church that allowing Chaplains IN THE MILITARY is enabling soldiers to remain urepentant sinners.

Whatever.

 

[choose_to_love]

Minor side point:

For all, as I understand it, “porkies” in this context as used by vera dicere means small lies - - “telling porkies”. It fits in the context of her post and I think I remember it from some Guy Ritchie movies where the use of English/London slang is extensive.

Isn’t there another thread with this same issue going on now? It had some good links, pro and con, describing both sides of the issue. It it is intrinsically evil, I do not see how it can be permissible; that being said, perhaps the underlying assumption about the nature of speech, i.e., to communicate the truth or the essential nature of something, may be the way to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Catholic90]

I think that you are wrong here. Usually policeman do not shoot to kill people and they should not. Shooting is a manner to stop a clear and present danger and it might entail loss of life; however the intention is not to kill but to hinder an action. Is a doctor responsible of murder if the patient dies during a non life saving surgery considering that he knew that there was the risk of loss of life?

No policeman or woman wants to kill. They want to protect the general population from crime. When a person threatens the life or safety of another, the police step in to diffuse the situation. The vast majority of times this is done without violence. However, every so often, a perpetrator is more stupid than usual and may not drop a weapon or points a weapon at an officer. If a perpetrator will not listen to the police demands that they lay down their weapon, should the police officer simply accept the shooting?

No. The police officer must prevent the perpetrator from causing harm or loss of life to others. Unfortunately, every so often this results in the perpetrator’s death. This death is fully on the hands of the perpetrator, though, since the perp did not listen to police instructions, usually orders of “drop your weapon!”

 

[Castello]

I respectfully disagree. If a parent told a 300 lbs. intruder where the son was they would be committing a sin because he/she helped someone harm the son. I already commented on Nazi invaders. War is special circumstances

I think clarification from a priest or spiritual adviser would be helpful. .

No special circumstances turn something evil into something good.

If the nazis are there or the bad guy is looking for your child, you can refuse to answer them. Honestly, you think crazed murderers are going to take your word for it that little johnny is not in his bedroom? Those scenarios are so far fetched.

Take something real. You are a manager and you have to make cuts. An enraged employee comes to you turns over your desk and and says “did you know this was going to happen to me?” An honest man can say “I cannot answer that”.

 

[Castello]

The Catholic Church has designated the following as patron saints of police officers:

1. 
   *]Police officers Michael the Archangel
   *]Police, Italian Mary, Faithful Virgin
   *]Police, Spanish Our Lady of the Pillar
   *]Police, Spanish, armed The Guardian Angels
   *]Police, local, municipal Sebastian
   
   So therefore, one could logically follow that one can be a Catholic and a police officer, since the Church herself has designated patron saints for them!

1. 
   No one said you cannot be Catholic and be a police officer.
   
   Lying is a sin.
   
   The police officer can do his job without lying, if he is forced to lie - again, his culpability may be reduced but if he is forced to lie over and over and over every day I am pretty sure his priest would eventually tell him that he needed to find a new job.
   
   Honesty and the law should go hand in hand.

 

[DaveBj]

Minor side point:

For all, as I understand it, “porkies” in this context as used by vera dicere means small lies - - “telling porkies”. It fits in the context of her post and I think I remember it from some Guy Ritchie movies where the use of English/London slang is extensive.

Isn’t there another thread with this same issue going on now? It had some good links, pro and con, describing both sides of the issue. It it is intrinsically evil, I do not see how it can be permissible; that being said, perhaps the underlying assumption about the nature of speech, i.e., to communicate the truth or the essential nature of something, may be the way to get to the bottom of this.

I googled it, and you are correct; my earlier guess was wrong.

Now back to the previously scheduled argument.

 

[Tietjen]

The Catholic Church definitely feels this way. That is the problem. The Catholic Church for too long now has been way to “accepting” of people and only teaching Gods love, not the other side, not the fact that there are obligations. People have totally forgotten the basics and sin because of it.

Well, I’m sure that if you talk to them (the Church), you’ll be able to set them straight. Peace.

 

[Infiltrator]

I think that you are wrong here. Usually policeman do not shoot to kill people and they should not. Shooting is a manner to stop a clear and present danger and it might entail loss of life; however the intention is not to kill but to hinder an action. Is a doctor responsible of murder if the patient dies during a non life saving surgery considering that he knew that there was the risk of loss of life?

You are partially right and I am partially wrong, because I am overgeneralising. This is actually something I have been struggling with for over 30 years so if you really want the long version to try and help you understand, I’ll provide it.

First thing we should look at is the good thief. The Good thief directly disregarded the commandment “thou shalt not steal” and the state law that if you steal, you will be crucified. How is this thief then right with God? From the surface it would seem that the Good thief is just a Thief! The Good thief was actually right with God because

1. He had committed the crime and was paying the state mandated sentence for it (on the cross). He had no more debt to the state.
2. His act of stealing was committed before he came to Christ and Christ forgives sins. And the thief saw that he had been sinful and did not wish to continue to be sinful.

Now let’s look at some specific situations. This is where it gets more complex because I have to Generalise. I can’t go through every police officer on earth.

The first is an old time English Bobby. We will assume the Bobby trains only to stop in a non-lethal way. They have made an oath to protect the community. They happen on a person beating another and in the midst of trying to stop the attacker, the attacker dies. As long as the Bobby is regretful and repentant at the loss of life, that is, they truly did not want to kill, they:

1. Committed no crime against the state
2. Has nothing to apologise to God for. (As long as the Bobby has not bared any false witness, has not taken any property without the permission of the owner (ie confiscated a vehicle) or broken any other of Gods laws, they are ok with God.) His soul was not tainted by his actions because he was truly trying to keep Gods law. It was God that chose to take the life.

Now let us take a second Police officer. The officer trains to be able to shoot guns, Taser guns, rubber bullets etc. with precision accuracy both at work and privately. They have made an oath to protect the community. Instead of taking out a Taser gun, rubber bullet gun etc., they take out a lethal weapon. They do this because the law in the state they live in says they must. Now let’s assume the same situation. They happen on a person beating another and in the midst of trying to stop the attacker, they try to shoot the attacker in a non-lethal place, miss and the attacker dies.

1. Committed no crime against the state
2. Has nothing to apologise to God for. (As long as the officer has not bared any false witness, has not taken any property without the permission of the owner (i.e. confiscated a vehicle) or broken any other of Gods laws, they are ok with God.) His soul was not tainted by his actions because he was truly trying to keep Gods law. It was God that chose to take the life.

Now let us take a third Police officer. They train to be able to shoot guns, Taser guns, rubber bullets etc. with precision accuracy both at work and privately. They have made an oath to protect the community. Instead of taking out a Taser gun, rubber bullet gun etc., they take out a lethal weapon. They do this because they believe a lethal weapon has a better range, more likely to work etc. Now let’s assume the same situation. Due to their training and CHOICE of weapon, they instinctively shoot the criminal in a lethal spot. They are unrepentant of the killing because it is possible that the person the criminal was beating might have been killed by the criminal. They believe it was necessary

1. They are most probably ok with the state (depending on the state they live in)
2. They are NOT alright with God. They have gone out with a lethal weapon when they had other choices. They chose the weapon that could kill. They also chose a lethal shot. They chose to kill. That is not right with God. Until they repent, they will not be alright with God. They will stay in purgatory at best until they repent and their soul is cleansed.

Assume a doctor committing an abortion. The state the doctor and patient live in allow abortion. The person wants it. You are unrepentant of it because you think it is necessary

1. The doctor is right with the state because they have obeyed the state law
2. The doctor is not ok with God because they have taken a life. Until they repent, they will not be alright with God. They are not right with God. They will stay in purgatory at best until they repent and their soul is cleansed.

Assume a doctor is commanded by a superior to commit an abortion. The doctor has a contract to do what is requested by his superior and not performing the abortion would be a breach of contract with a large fine and a prison sentence. The doctor does not commit the abortion

1. The doctor is not right with the state and will have to pay the penalty.
2. The doctor is ok with God because they have not taken a life.

 

[Infiltrator]

I think that you are wrong here. Usually policeman do not shoot to kill people and they should not. Shooting is a manner to stop a clear and present danger and it might entail loss of life; however the intention is not to kill but to hinder an action. Is a doctor responsible of murder if the patient dies during a non life saving surgery considering that he knew that there was the risk of loss of life?

Now let’s go somewhere other than killing
Let’s assume a police officer sees someone speeding. They do not know how fast they are speeding because their radar gun was pointing somewhere else, but it is obvious that the person was. They pull over the person and say “do you know how fast you were going” the civilian lies and says “no”. The police officer gives a ticket for doing 120 in a 60 zone.

1. They may be right with the state, depending on the law of that state
2. They are not alright with God. They have lied in saying they know the person was speeding at 120 in a 60 zone. Until they make a mends with the other person (the civilian that lied) and repent of their sin (lying) they will not be right with God. They will stay in purgatory at best until they repent and their soul is cleansed.

Let’s assume a police officer sees someone obviously driving in a reckless way. Let’s also assume the state law says that the state law says an officer must confiscate the person’s car in that situation. The officer calls a tow truck; the car is confiscated and sold off.

1. The police officer is ok with the state – they have obeyed the state law
2. The officer is not ok with God. Until they make a mends with the other person (the civilian that broke the law) and repented of their sin (stealing, taking property without the permission of the OWNER) they will not be right with God. They will stay in purgatory at best until they repent and their soul is cleansed.

So let’s look at another part of the new testament. The tax collector. Once the tax collector realised what he was doing was wrong and turned to God, he repaid the taxes he collected and then some. He didn’t turn to god and keep sinning. He made a mends for the sin.

1. He may or may not have been ok with the state. We don’t know
2. He was right with God because he put the law of God above the law of Man. He realised his sin, repented and tried to stop sinning in the future.

It does not really matter the job you do, you cannot put your oath to man’s law above your oath to Gods law. Anyone that does that is a sinner. Anyone that does not repent of putting man’s law above Gods is an unrepentant sinner. Until they repent, they will not be alright with God. They will stay in purgatory at best until they do and their soul is cleansed.

When anyone selects a job, they will get to a point where they have to choose to obey God’s law or obey the state law. Those that obey man’s law above god’s need to repent of it. Those that choose to obey gods law above mans and take the punishment form the state for that are ok with God.

And just for the record, there are patron saints for police because they need them! It is an additional cross to bear, one that they choose themselves. Anyone that puts themselves above the rest of the community will be judged more harshly for it and receive their reward for it here on earth.

So to cut to the chase, It’s hypothetically possible to be a police officer and right with God and be a Catholic but practically impossible. I say that because I have looked for 30 years for one, just one, morally upstanding officer that is Catholic and right with God. I will make the same offer here I have made everywhere else. Please prove me wrong by producing contact details for one, just one, decent moral police officer. One that will not kill, or support those that do, one that will not bear any false witness, one that will not steal. One that is sitting with the occupy protestors because it is Christlike or even refused the orders to move them on.

I will contact them directly and verify that they really are morally right and upstanding. That they would not steal even if the law says they must, that they would not take someone to the gas chambers because the law says they must (as the Kripo did) Once I have seen just one, I will say it is possible to be a Police officer and a Catholic, just very very difficult.

 

[Infiltrator]

Someone needs to tell the Church that allowing Chaplains IN THE MILITARY is enabling soldiers to remain urepentant sinners.

Whatever.

Chaplins in the military are there to save the souls of the soldiers. To turn them from their sinful ways.

 

[Infiltrator]

No. The police officer must prevent the perpetrator from causing harm or loss of life to others. Unfortunately, every so often this results in the perpetrator’s death. This death is fully on the hands of the perpetrator, though, since the perp did not listen to police instructions, usually orders of “drop your weapon!”

As long as they do not disobey Gods law, yes. They cannot take a life, regardless of what magic words they say. When they do, they sin.

it is black and white.

 

[Infiltrator]

No special circumstances turn something evil into something good.

If the nazis are there or the bad guy is looking for your child, you can refuse to answer them. Honestly, you think crazed murderers are going to take your word for it that little johnny is not in his bedroom? Those scenarios are so far fetched.

Take something real. You are a manager and you have to make cuts. An enraged employee comes to you turns over your desk and and says “did you know this was going to happen to me?” An honest man can say “I cannot answer that”.

that is exactly right. When the Nazi police killed escaping Jewish prisoners they were

1. approved by the state
2. the state was approved by the Vatican.

No special circimstances turn something evil into something good. ever. period.

 

[Infiltrator]

Well, I’m sure that if you talk to them (the Church), you’ll be able to set them straight. Peace.

Not at all. I have talked to quite a few members of the Catholic Church that agree.

 

[Catholic90]

Well, I’m sure that if you talk to them (the Church), you’ll be able to set them straight. Peace.

1. The officer is not ok with God.

How do YOU know? I think whether or not someone is OK with God is pretty much between that person and God. For ANY of us to assume otherwise seems pretty…arrogant.

 

[Infiltrator]

How do YOU know? I think whether or not someone is OK with God is pretty much between that person and God. For ANY of us to assume otherwise seems pretty…arrogant.

Not at all - it is there in the Bible of exactly what people need to do to be right with God. Otherwise the active homosexual would be ok with God and would be able to marry. There is no difference.

 

[Leegal]

No matter how much you disagree with God does not mean he will change his mind.** It simply means you will need to understand during your time in purgatory.**

Actually, I said that we take temporal oaths and have responsibilities that go along with it. The OP had to do with lying to avoid detection during war - the use of false papers.

I said, if to save a life, such false use of documents to avoid detection is permissible and warranted. Also, a police officer takes an oath to protect. If the situation warrants that he draw his gun, he must be prepared to use it. If he does, the sin is upon the perpetrator, not the officer who has taken an oath to protect his life or the life of someone else. For those in conflict, I expect they are not trying out for the police or enlisting in the military. War comes under another category.

I don’t expect God to change His Mind for me, nor do not I disagree with God. I am saying there are circumstances and then there are circumstances. God understands all. The rest of us, not so much. I suggest you take this scenario directly to your confessor or spiritual counselor and see what they say. In fact, you might have to take this up with the Vatican and the Churches in Europe who used deception and false papers to hide Jewish children in Catholic orphanages and/or placed them, falsely, in Catholic homes under these false identities. Let me know what the Pope says.

I am glad to hear that God will understand my time in purgatory. Whew. :doh2::